FDEV, Please don't ruin exploration. Changes you are introducing for ADS are a massive downgrade.

[Thann]

How about when you have any relevant information? For example after they show it in motion. Or, yes, during the beta, that sounds like a perfect time to decide that, e.g., scanning is too slow, too fiddly, doesn't hint at "interesting" places strong enough, general navigation becomes a hassle, … which may all be valid concerns, but there's zero information right now to form an opinion on any of those.

If you consider them valid concerns I'm not sure why it upsets you that they are voiced?

Very often humans need to be able to form opinions and voice concerns without all the data in the world on a given matter being available for them. Once ship has sailed, voicing em concerns becomes that much more futile.

Voicing concerns when something is in development= small change for it to have an affect.
Voicing concerns once everything is all done and being shipped for beta testing already..bit too late. By the time some open beta lands, the cake is already very much baked. Only concerns devs care of at that point have to do with bug fixes and polish. Whether it is a good idea to bake a cake by mixing salt and strawberries is a discussion already over and done by that point.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

100% agree with the OP.

I've been fighting against making body discovery take time for years - it amazes me why some folks simply don't understand that turning body discovery into a time consuming minigame is a bad idea.

It just seems obvious that it's better to improve gameplay after body discovery - having more things to do in these star systems - and I'm pleased that Frontier are in fact delivering on that more important aspect. It's just unfortunate that they've gone a step too far at the wrong end of the gameplay :/

 

[Thann]

100% agree with the OP.

I've been fighting against making body discovery take time for years - it amazes me why some folks simply don't understand that turning body discovery into a time consuming minigame is a bad idea.

It just seems obvious that it's better to improve gameplay after body discovery - having more things to do in these star systems - and I'm pleased that Frontier are in fact delivering on that more important aspect. It's just unfortunate that they've gone a step too far at the wrong end of the gameplay :/

There was a specific quote on 1st page of this thread that underlines how far removed our ideas of fun exploration gameplay can be;

The ones that I guess might not like the proposal are distance travellers. The ones who circumnavigate the galaxy etc. Feats that IMO should practically not even be possible

If one considers it a bad thing that people are able to explore far reaches of the galaxy, then everything that slows exploration down even further or takes us closer to removal of FTL travel is a net positive I guess.: p

I'm convinced proposed changes to ADS are so much worse in practice than they seem to sound in ears of many people at this point. I've often been wrong and I'm extremely happy if this is one of those times.

 

[rp198419]

100% agree with the OP.

I've been fighting against making body discovery take time for years - it amazes me why some folks simply don't understand that turning body discovery into a time consuming minigame is a bad idea.

It just seems obvious that it's better to improve gameplay after body discovery - having more things to do in these star systems - and I'm pleased that Frontier are in fact delivering on that more important aspect. It's just unfortunate that they've gone a step too far at the wrong end of the gameplay :/

...and whilst you're doing all this wonderful new stuff, you are also supposed to safely fly your ship, given that you have to be in SuperCruise to use the ADF

I would never be against more gameplay but I have to say that based on FD's past record, their idea of gameplay and my own are divergent to say the least.

If there is still nothing to do on planets after you land, where exactly is the 'exciting' gameplay? With this new system, we are map-makers, not explorers. To be an explorer there has to be something new to discover - and I don't mean copy/pasted Guardian ruins, etc.

 

[space voyager]

I've been fighting against making body discovery take time for years - it amazes me why some folks simply don't understand that turning body discovery into a time consuming minigame is a bad idea.

Firstly I think we need to agree on what is time consuming. IMO any task that we need to use any brains to complete is NOT time consumption but gameplay. From the gameplay perspective it is also better if it yields - or enables the yield of - credits.

I view the opposition to the change only as a wish to discover as many heavenly bodies as possible instead of "wasting time" to find them. To an explorer this should not be an argument at all. If I want to be an explorer I'll invest my time into exploration gameplay. So we'll need more time to explore a system thoroughly, so what? It will enable more things to be found and without eye-balling whole planets...
To a traveller however this IS a problem as just travelling will not explore the systems you went through and your travels will not bring you much credits. Well, I'm sorry you have a problem with that. That does not mean I'm never a traveller myself. I went to Colonia and SagA. Both the exploring way, I spent heaps of time scanning the planets, landing, searching for geysers etc. Basically, playing the incredibly little exploration content we do have. And geysers don't bring a dime, I just did it for the sake of finding a nice sight. And THIS part, the actual discovery, will now take MUCH LESS TIME. This is why I don't cry over time spent instead of the honk, I'll use far less time to explore than before. Also I quite like the fact that we'll need to use minute or two of our time actually finding the stuff. Travelling should NOT be exploration.

BTW, what exploration MIGHT be like... My post at Strategy Core, years ago (part of).

Oh, there was an epic moment of "mygodthatisawesome" when I had a mission to deliver some goods to a space station far away from the star, much further than my scanner was able to find. Normally I would ditch the mission but this time I went scientific. I flew perpendicular to the planetary plane, than headed back towards the star and looked for moving dots. Stars in the background won't move (noticeably) but bodies much closer will as you're flying superluminal. Basically how the astronomers go about finding anything moving in our vicinity but reversed. So after a few flybys I finally managed to find the dot, meaning the planet and the station around it. It actually felt like an accomplishment.

Later I found out that I could just scan the navigational buoy at the star and it would reveal whole system.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

...and whilst you're doing all this wonderful new stuff, you are also supposed to safely fly your ship, given that you have to be in SuperCruise to use the ADF

I would never be against more gameplay but I have to say that based on FD's past record, their idea of gameplay and my own are divergent to say the least.

If there is still nothing to do on planets after you land, where exactly is the 'exciting' gameplay? With this new system, we are map-makers, not explorers. To be an explorer there has to be something new to discover - and I don't mean copy/pasted Guardian ruins, etc.

Exactly.

One does not deliberately blindfold oneself in order to discover a mountain in front of you - that would be madness.

One especially does not play a little game which slowly uncovers said blindfold in order to notice the mountain.

There are 400 billion mountains in ED. The mountain being the star system, the planets and moons and other stars in it being the mountain's terrain.

You see (discover) the mountain. Then you go explore its terrain.

I mean this is just basic obviousness. If you turn discovery into a mandatory minigame before you can see the terrain (stars, planets, moons etc.), then it is just plainly obvious that this will just get in the way of exploration. It's just completely unnecessary.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Firstly I think we need to agree on what is time consuming. IMO any task that we need to use any brains to complete is NOT time consumption but gameplay. From the gameplay perspective it is also better if it yields - or enables the yield of - credits.

I view the opposition to the change only as a wish to discover as many heavenly bodies as possible instead of "wasting time" to find them. To an explorer this should not be an argument at all. If I want to be an explorer I'll invest my time into exploration gameplay. So we'll need more time to explore a system thoroughly, so what? It will enable more things to be found and without eye-balling whole planets...
To a traveller however this IS a problem as just travelling will not explore the systems you went through and your travels will not bring you much credits. Well, I'm sorry you have a problem with that. That does not mean I'm never a traveller myself. I went to Colonia and SagA. Both the exploring way, I spent heaps of time scanning the planets, landing, searching for geysers etc. Basically, playing the incredibly little exploration content we do have. And geysers don't bring a dime, I just did it for the sake of finding a nice sight. And THIS part, the actual discovery, will now take MUCH LESS TIME. This is why I don't cry over time spent instead of the honk, I'll use far less time to explore than before. Also I quite like the fact that we'll need to use minute or two of our time actually finding the stuff. Travelling should NOT be exploration.

BTW, what exploration MIGHT be like... My post at Strategy Core, years ago (part of).

You don't need much brainpower to see that something is in front of your eyes.

Where's the logic in being able to crash right into a planet in front of your ship, yet, your ship doesn't know the planet is there because you haven't played an utterly stupid and pointless minigame to register said planet to your ship's computer!?!

Dear goddess please save me from this insanity!

 

[Thann]

When flying to.. places in Elite, you are very much in space. (duh! But bear with me) When opening the GalMap to navigate..well, towards the beginning, at least in VR, this was approximately as mind blowing as actually flying. - You are still very much in space,only browsing and studying it while operating with scales so vast that it can blow your mind. The new minigame like as not will demand much more of your time than Galmap ever has. In fact, I guess it likely you usually spend more of your time playing the minigame than you'll end up spending flying around in the system. This is awesome for all those who have always felt like they've not had the opportunity to operate an old school radio enough in real life. And want to use Elite for it.

Seriously, who doesn't consider it fun and exciting to operate a car stereo while driving? Who doesn't find searching for channels much more fun than listening to actual programs a tuned radio broadcasts?

 

[shreddog]

You don't need much brainpower to see that something is in front of your eyes.

Where's the logic in being able to crash right into a planet in front of your ship, yet, your ship doesn't know the planet is there because you haven't played an utterly stupid and pointless minigame to register said planet to your ship's computer!?!

Dear goddess please save me from this insanity!

You forget passive detection range.
Every scanner has a passive detection radius.
So your ship will pick it up in good time before you crash

 

[Iron Body]

But if I KNOW right away that something like an Earth-Like-World is lurking somewhere in the dark in a system.....then yes I would love to use some new exiting gameplay to try and find it - AND spend more time doing it. Hell, I wouldn’t even mind spending a long time searching for it, if I know it’s there somewhere.

And imagine the opposite. You don't know if anything is interesting in the system and then spend 5 minutes (?) looking for something that isn't there. Thousands of times. This will stop me playing ED.

PS. For me "interesting" = "ELW"

 

[C64Fan]

And imagine the opposite. You don't know if anything is interesting in the system and then spend 5 minutes (?) looking for something that isn't there. Thousands of times. This will stop me playing ED.

PS. For me "interesting" = "ELW"

I believe that was what I said in my first paragraph in my post, but yes I agree completely!

 

[Dr. Nagi]

And imagine the opposite. You don't know if anything is interesting in the system and then spend 5 minutes (?) looking for something that isn't there. Thousands of times. This will stop me playing ED.

THIS!

 

[racer1]

The new system still reveals an image of the system with the honk, just a different image.

FDev said in the mega thread that you should be able to tell, once you have used it a while, whether the system has stuff of interest to you from just the honk.

E.g. you should be able to tell at a glance from the honk if ELW are present.

For me I am waiting for demos/beta before I decide. I am hopeful the new system will be much better. Even if it does take a few more seconds to decide whether to stay or press on.

 

[Rob At Work]

I dunno what you're worried about.

Just b'cuz they announced it, Dunny mean itz gonna happen!

In fact on recent form it's probably the death nail, think of it like a vote of confidence.

 

[Chrystoph]

@OP - Repped for a well thought out post

I believe that this is a content argument, and the OP is saying that the place for the content decisions needs to be after you have an understanding of the system composition.

I saw several variations of, we need more enjoyment, and I agree with that. However, I am thinking that putting the effort in to find out that there is nothing but asteroids and potatoes is only going to be enjoyable a couple of times.

Someone mentioned finding brain tree orchards, but, if I understand this correctly, this will reduce your understanding of the system to the point that you aren't even certain how many stars there are prior to manually hunting them down with the scanner. That is not conducive of discovery, that is back yard astronomy where your scope isn't powerful enough to tell that Alpha Centauri is a multiple.

In my opinion, the suggested mechanics and FTL travel make no sense because we have better capabilities than that now. When you add to that the fact that I can lock on to a star (personal range currently ~48LY) tens of light years away and jump to it, the idea that I have to use the Mark I eyeball to find other stars and planets is... I'm not even sure what word to use.

Unless Frontier is adding a HUGE quantity of content to the DS process, this is nothing more than a time waster. NOTE, I said to the DS process, not to the planets or the system as this won't help you with those elements.

 

[Alec Turner]

I dunno what you're worried about.

Just b'cuz they announced it, Dunny mean itz gonna happen!

In fact on recent form it's probably the death nail, think of it like a vote of confidence.

You sure? Aside from long-term ambitions (e.g. ice planets and fleet carriers) when have Frontier ever not released something that they've described in this way at this late stage in the update process? (genuine question)

 

[Iron Body]

I believe that was what I said in my first paragraph in my post, but yes I agree completely!

Yes, I should have started by saying I agree. But it has more impact by using the "opposite" argument.

 

[Mengy]

I disagree that the honk should stay like it is today, it’s just too powerful as a one button mechanic. HOWEVER, I do agree with the OP’s premise, that explorers need a quick way of determining if a system is interesting or not and worth staying for additional scrutiny. Key word being “quick check”.

I still feel like a good solution is a compromise between the current honk and the 3.3 honk. The former shows everything while the latter only shows the main star, which just isn’t enough information to be useful. I’d like to see the 3.3 honk changed to just show the system structure only, planets would be shown to size but as grey bodies, untextured and with unknown type. This compromise would convey some information on the honk allowing explorers to make snap decisions, but it wouldn’t give too much information thereby ruining any sense of discovery via the new mechanics.

 

[space voyager]

I disagree that the honk should stay like it is today, it’s just too powerful as a one button mechanic. HOWEVER, I do agree with the OP’s premise, that explorers need a quick way of determining if a system is interesting or not and worth staying for additional scrutiny. Key word being “quick check”.

I still feel like a good solution is a compromise between the current honk and the 3.3 honk. The former shows everything while the latter only shows the main star, which just isn’t enough information to be useful. I’d like to see the 3.3 honk changed to just show the system structure only, planets would be shown to size but as grey bodies, untextured and with unknown type. This compromise would convey some information on the honk allowing explorers to make snap decisions, but it wouldn’t give too much information thereby ruining any sense of discovery via the new mechanics.

There are ways to go in between. One of the nice proposals is StuartGT's.

I hate the way it works now but being left totally blind is not my request.

 

[Dr. Nagi]

I disagree that the honk should stay like it is today, it’s just too powerful as a one button mechanic.

Heh? It's not like that it unbalances the game or something, so "too powerful" kinda is the wrong term here imo. And I like the way it works now.
Don't get all this ranting about exploration being too easy, why has it to be hard? It's supposed to be FUN, not HARD. So does it take away fun from your gameplay experience if others can reveal a system map by honking?