FDEV, Please don't ruin exploration. Changes you are introducing for ADS are a massive downgrade.

[yianniv]

There are ways to go in between. One of the nice proposals is StuartGT's.

I hate the way it works now but being left totally blind is not my request.

I suggested something else in another thread: Add a "Reveal all" button to the galaxy map, which will add the honk info available today to the system map. We can choose whether we press it or not. Even then, no DSS info will be provided, this will be available after using the new method. Then we can decide whether we map the bodies with the drones.

This way we can choose what level of attention we want to devote to each system.

 

[Dr. Nagi]

I suggested something else in another thread: Add a "Reveal all" button to the galaxy map, which will add the honk info available today to the system map. We can choose whether we press it or not. Even then, no DSS info will be provided, this will be available after using the new method. Then we can decide whether we map the bodies with the drones.

This way we can choose what level of attention we want to devote to each system.

Or just sell two different ADS's, the new and the old one, can't be that hard for sure?

 

[OldManKnott]

If the update can make exploration better for current explorers and encourage new explorers then great. I'm all in.
If it makes exploration slightly worse but still encourages new explorers then maybe.
If it makes exploration worse and does nothing to encourage new explorers then absolutely not.

 

[Alfred J Kwak]

It all depends on how fast and fluent the new scanner interface is, and how informative the energy wibblies are. Crying "you're ruining X" after having seen two screenshots is dumb.

Concluding that it is a good idea on the base of the 2 screens shots is equaly dumb

 

[Alfred J Kwak]

The main isue is that frontier has the starcitizen syndrome copying features from that game in to elite , and not only features but also ship designs.

 

[Whitehair]

The main isue is that frontier has the starcitizen syndrome copying features from that game in to elite , and not only features but also ship designs.

Ahahahahahhhhaaaaaa

 

[Lance 'Spacecat' D.]

good catch, space voyager. I like StuartGT's proposal as well.

It's not just about exploring fast or slow BTW. One should also keep in mind folks that stay in the bubble, and just use the ASD to quickly map a system to know where stations and ground installations are. They wouldn't care one whit about using the scanning minigame - they just want to know where the planets and stations are without having to drop at a nav beacon.

I wouldn't want to drop on a compromised nav beacon while ferrying a big cargo full of computer components, myself.

So yeah, I'm with Stuart 100%, give a partial map so the scanning minigame has benefits. Make things a bit trickier on explorers, I'm cool with that, but not full blindfold.

 

[shreddog]

One should also keep in mind folks that stay in the bubble, and just use the ASD to quickly map a system to know where stations and ground installations are. They wouldn't care one whit about using the scanning minigame - they just want to know where the planets and stations are without having to drop at a nav beacon.

I can absolutely understand 'non explorers' not wanting to spend time on this in the bubble.
They could have made it so any previous explored celestial object shows up automatically for everybody on entering a new system.
That would mean no need to fit scanner while doing 'bubble stuff'.

 

[Alfred J Kwak]

good catch, space voyager. I like StuartGT's proposal as well.

It's not just about exploring fast or slow BTW. One should also keep in mind folks that stay in the bubble, and just use the ASD to quickly map a system to know where stations and ground installations are. They wouldn't care one whit about using the scanning minigame - they just want to know where the planets and stations are without having to drop at a nav beacon.

I wouldn't want to drop on a compromised nav beacon while ferrying a big cargo full of computer components, myself.

So yeah, I'm with Stuart 100%, give a partial map so the scanning minigame has benefits. Make things a bit trickier on explorers, I'm cool with that, but not full blindfold.

The sensor suite they where talking about or a science bay to do detailed research in systems would be a nice thought.

Honk scan for system mapping detailed scans for surface mapping

probes for atmospheric and geological make up of planets

Orbital scanner that measures magnetic fields gravity infrared temperatures radiation etc (how current satalites work) to find interesting areas like ruins vulcanos gysers abandoned bases crashed ships etc.


And would hurt to have a starfinder that you can use to target a star you want to fly to and not have to do a galaxy map geus to target the star.

 

[Sir.Tj]

The main isue is that frontier has the starcitizen syndrome copying features from that game in to elite , and not only features but also ship designs.

Wow..... just wow....

I see it's reverse day on the forum.

 

[Alfred J Kwak]

Wow..... just wow....

I see it's reverse day on the forum.

Sadly i wish that was true. to many simularities , and iam no SC fanboy i tried it a couple of times and dont care for it.
But it have seen the features and ships added and they where released months before frontier released ships like the chieftan.

 

[Thrym]

There's no reason to make the discovery scanner not find planets exactly the way it does now. Unfortunately, it's another example of just plain old "not getting it".

What it really needed, in my opinion, is a reason to find them in the first place. No, I don't mean story or anything like that, rather actual reasons to investigate planets, and the actual ability to do it, rather than this passive, "fly close enough until your scanner finishes" nonsense.

We can fly in a straight line out of the bubble and find thousands of worthless rocks. Honk again and again and again, and all you'll find is rocks. No real reason to land on them. No reason for a closer look. No reason for their existence whatsoever. Making it harder or less straightforward to identify which ones are what isn't the point. The point is "why do it in the first place?", and this doesn't address that in the slightest.

Rather than this nonsense, what's really need is some kind of way to find "anomalous readings", and a suite of such anomalies that are worth investigating to see what they are. Finding new space rock number 51938561b is all great, and currently a trivial process, but what if we had a sensor that showed the dark side to have double the gravity of the light, or maybe it shows power sources located on it, or odd radiation fluctuations, etc. If we found such oddities, we'd then have a reason to actually want to see that planet, perhaps.

Changing it so that we don't see the planet with our current scanner doesn't make this the case. All it does is make it a pain in the butt to find it in the first place. The rudimentary, worse than present day sonar on your SRV tells the story of what this looks like for you already. You drive that thing on worthless planets looking at boring landscapes to see nothing. That aspect of it is pretty much garbage. Getting the little dinger that says "hey, something to look at" all but guarantees you'll want to look at it, and that's the direction you'll head.

The first part, the drive around in nothing in total boredom part, is something the space exploration also has, but at least you're seeing and moving on, not puttering in circles or dealing with vagueness and a lack of sensory input. The second part is the gold that can make it worthwhile. Add the second without creating the first and maybe we'll have something. Add more of the first and...well....not the right direction, in my opinion.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

"Total boredom"? Then what are you doing here? And what is that nonsense of "twice the gravity on the dark side"?

I got 100s of hours of exploartion that were not boring - as an explorer, because travelling in space is boring for most people, by definition. I just consumed most what there is, even though now in VR there is a business case to go out again (will restrain myself until DW2, though).

Let's see what the new system will bring during an initial scan, at least that's when I'll make my verdict.

 

[Thrym]

"Total boredom"? Then what are you doing here? And what is that nonsense of "twice the gravity on the dark side"?

I got 100s of hours of exploartion that were not boring - as an explorer, because travelling in space is boring for most people, by definition. I just consumed most what there is, even though now in VR there is a business case to go out again (will restrain myself until DW2, though).

Let's see what the new system will bring during an initial scan, at least that's when I'll make my verdict.

I apologize for the apparent lack of clarity you're seeing, I'll see if I can clear it up.

I find the SRV boring. Surely it's not difficult to understand why a person might see this to be the case, even for someone that disagrees with that. As to why I'm here......input on how to potentially cause that to not be the case is always a good thing. The game itself is a great framework, any time real improvement comes up we should surely look upon it as an opportunity, right?

The "twice the gravity on the dark side" thing was simply an example of an anomaly(though I'd ask that you actually quote me in the future, rather than take snippets out of context, which causes nothing but confusion). I used it as an example of something a person might want to explore further--a reason to go somewhere, to look deeper, to try to understand something. By all means, if this example doesn't appeal to you, please substitute any of millions of other potential examples that might warrant further exploration if it helps flesh out the concept for yourself.

Understandably, a person content with honking their horn at millions of identical rocks may not feel a particular need to find "more" out there, and perhaps not even be interested in doing so. That's certainly ok, different strokes for different strokes and all that. For me, exploration will most likely be my last Elite gained simply because the current process is something I don't get satisfaction from.

My personal input is that this is a game and really needs less stretches of nothingness and more opportunity to find true points of interest. New developments in the exploration game should center around adding both ways to find these, reasons to find them, and an enjoyable experience upon finding them. My opinion is that simple scanner changes that merely alter our current mechanics are neither an interesting direction of travel nor a positive inclusion.

We could certainly just wait and see, but at that point we've lost the opportunity to make suggestions that this may not be the direction of interest for us. That's why I'm here now, rather than after that opportunity has passed.

 

[gooddoc]

Either way, when we're testing it in the Beta, that's it, like it or not!

Our pros & cons, may have been better discussed in June when FD delayed & then postponed the FFF thread.
Then it may well have been possible to tweak what the Devs were doing from our posted comments.
When FD announced last week what was happening & showed us in the stream, that was it......set in stone!

The Beta will be a bug hunting exercise, by us for FD. Whether we enjoy what we're seeing/playing (minus the usual 'not showing all the stuff' stuff) it's basically it!

I think it highly unlikely that FD will change what we have been shown, no matter what we've posted.

 

[space voyager]

Either way, when we're testing it in the Beta, that's it, like it or not!

Our pros & cons, may have been better discussed in June when FD delayed & then postponed the FFF thread.
Then it may well have been possible to tweak what the Devs were doing from our posted comments.
When FD announced last week what was happening & showed us in the stream, that was it......set in stone!

The Beta will be a bug hunting exercise, by us for FD. Whether we enjoy what we're seeing/playing (minus the usual 'not showing all the stuff' stuff) it's basically it!

I think it highly unlikely that FD will change what we have been shown, no matter what we've posted.

Good. At some point you need to cut the talk.

Anyway, I absolutely LOVE the idea of some mistery being left after the honk. This IMO is also exactly what long distance travellers find so appaling. They want to get the info instantly and move on as they have a galaxy to traverse. I'm sorry for deliberate exaggeration...

When (not if) I head to Beagle I'll definitely be a traveller and if that means not knowing everything about the systems I left behind, so be it. That or I'll never get there.

 

[Rollo]

Frontier (imho) made a mistake when they made exploration and travel-honk so easy to begin with. There's no sense of accomplishment whatsoever being an 'explorer'. Truth is really, it's a mostly brain-dead pursuit save for some planned routing before jumponium and engineers. I say this with nearly a million ly 'travelled' myself. I can't stop though, because it's addictive to me. It's like a lottery or a fish pond for kids. What will I see in the next star system?

Now, maybe too late, they're trying to rectify exploration somewhat and somehow, we'll see, and I commend them for doing it. Let's see what they present 'shortly', shall we?

 

[Traesha]

Now, maybe too late, they're trying to rectify exploration somewhat and somehow, we'll see, and I commend them for doing it. Let's see what they present 'shortly', shall we?

No let's not! If they made this system at launch, when you had to plot routes of a short distance, from what I gathered a 100ly routes and then had to scan every system which they have presented now, then the devs would have complained about not enough customers buying this game and they would have migrated to the current system we have which is reveal all planets on system scan.
Let's see it, every update they did so far made the game simpler. From what I know, they made the following changes and more (not going to check all of it):

Extended route plotting to 1000ly
Removed NPC's outside the bubble
Increased payout for exploration
Improved graphics from 32bit to 64 bit
Added landing on non-atmospheric planets
Gathering materials specifically to increase jump range
Added engineers to increase jump range
Extended route plotting to 20000ly
Added the ability to plot a route selecting certain stars
Increased payout for exploration (again)

Now where did we find any nerf / downgrade along the way? We didn't! We even didn't get to avoid / fight Thargoids which they were planning to do: "winter is coming". We thought that FD understood what exploration was about. Unfortunately now, that seems not the case, so we need to remember them that this isn't what we want. And for the people who "like the change", yep... they either think it is okay to do an exploration minigame every system they are in.. until they did that for maybe a month at most and likely return to the bubble for some pew pew. Or they think it is okay for explorers to get nerfed and they are allready playing in the bubble and are never coming out of it.

I haven't seen a post from an explorer who said: "Oh cool, they downgraded the ADS.. now I don't get all the planets when I honk the system, I am finally going to stay in this system with 10 icy planets a couple minute longer" because thats exactly what they are getting, and not one's but definately for the majority of their exploration gametime.
Now the devs have been quiet lately though we have proof they do read the forums. Hopefully they are discussing whether or not they go forward with this new system.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I apologize for the apparent lack of clarity you're seeing, I'll see if I can clear it up.

I find the SRV boring. Surely it's not difficult to understand why a person might see this to be the case, even for someone that disagrees with that. As to why I'm here......input on how to potentially cause that to not be the case is always a good thing. The game itself is a great framework, any time real improvement comes up we should surely look upon it as an opportunity, right?

The "twice the gravity on the dark side" thing was simply an example of an anomaly(though I'd ask that you actually quote me in the future, rather than take snippets out of context, which causes nothing but confusion). I used it as an example of something a person might want to explore further--a reason to go somewhere, to look deeper, to try to understand something. By all means, if this example doesn't appeal to you, please substitute any of millions of other potential examples that might warrant further exploration if it helps flesh out the concept for yourself.

Understandably, a person content with honking their horn at millions of identical rocks may not feel a particular need to find "more" out there, and perhaps not even be interested in doing so. That's certainly ok, different strokes for different strokes and all that. For me, exploration will most likely be my last Elite gained simply because the current process is something I don't get satisfaction from.

My personal input is that this is a game and really needs less stretches of nothingness and more opportunity to find true points of interest. New developments in the exploration game should center around adding both ways to find these, reasons to find them, and an enjoyable experience upon finding them. My opinion is that simple scanner changes that merely alter our current mechanics are neither an interesting direction of travel nor a positive inclusion.

We could certainly just wait and see, but at that point we've lost the opportunity to make suggestions that this may not be the direction of interest for us. That's why I'm here now, rather than after that opportunity has passed.

What makes exploration rewarding, is finding interesting things in the vast nothingness (as you put it). And what makes explorers special (or weirdo), is that we find beauty in desolate landscapes in the middle of nowhere, we find satisfaction in reaching remote destinations.

I do agree, that an update to have more phenomena like comets, more significant volcanism, the promised ice worlds or an update to star's appearance/color range is overdue - and to me preferable over the actual mechanisms to discover things. However, that won't and shouldn't mean that your primary concern about vast nothingness can be addressed. Again, by nature exploration is a repetitive, time consuming thing.

Depending on how much you have explored, and how well you can read the system map, interesting stuff are out there to look deeper. Unusually high gravity, giant ice worlds with extremely eccentric orbits, well timed landings for stellar eclipses on planet surface - and the list goes on.

Now the question is what exactly the new scanner will reveal from all those things from the initial scan, but I expect we will lose some visual guidance in exchange for an indication of interesting stuff, like presence of life (braintrees, fungae at volcanic sites, space pumpkins...). One thing is sure, from now on it will be easy to find volcanic sites that are both neat to look at and great places to top up your material reserves, so that's a win already.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

No let's not! If they made this system at launch, when you had to plot routes of a short distance, from what I gathered a 100ly routes and then had to scan every system which they have presented now, then the devs would have complained about not enough customers buying this game and they would have migrated to the current system we have which is reveal all planets on system scan.
Let's see it, every update they did so far made the game simpler. From what I know, they made the following changes and more (not going to check all of it):

Extended route plotting to 1000ly
Removed NPC's outside the bubble
Increased payout for exploration
Improved graphics from 32bit to 64 bit
Added landing on non-atmospheric planets
Gathering materials specifically to increase jump range
Added engineers to increase jump range
Extended route plotting to 20000ly
Added the ability to plot a route selecting certain stars
Increased payout for exploration (again)

Now where did we find any nerf / downgrade along the way? We didn't! We even didn't get to avoid / fight Thargoids which they were planning to do: "winter is coming". We thought that FD understood what exploration was about. Unfortunately now, that seems not the case, so we need to remember them that this isn't what we want. And for the people who "like the change", yep... they either think it is okay to do an exploration minigame every system they are in.. until they did that for maybe a month at most and likely return to the bubble for some pew pew. Or they think it is okay for explorers to get nerfed and they are allready playing in the bubble and are never coming out of it.

I haven't seen a post from an explorer who said: "Oh cool, they downgraded the ADS.. now I don't get all the planets when I honk the system, I am finally going to stay in this system with 10 icy planets a couple minute longer" because thats exactly what they are getting, and not one's but definately for the majority of their exploration gametime.
Now the devs have been quiet lately though we have proof they do read the forums. Hopefully they are discussing whether or not they go forward with this new system.

That isn't necessarily what we are getting, again, we don't know how that electromagnetic scanner will work. I do admit, that FDevs comms failed again at properly answering these concerns.

I just want to remind people how the currently proposed gameplay changes were mostly community driven and mostly mentioned in OA's video at the bottom. I'm not saying I agree with the content, far from it, but the general consensus is that OA's opinion reflect that of the community.

The bottom line is, I give the benefit of doubt to the changes, and I think it is unfair to have a 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' approach.

See this video (f.ex. at the 7:30 mark)
[video=youtube;qOz6g92TX0g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOz6g92TX0g[/video]