Horizons FDev, please talk to the active PVP community.

[Etherimp]

This.

This is the heart of the problem.

I have a Python right now, and I've resorted to trading for the time being in order to get enough cash to buy and fit out an ExploraConda - I just can't afford it right now.

So it's basically mostly cargo space. I do have it also fitted out with shield boosters, chaff, heatsink, and all the gun ports filled to the brim with death-dealing weapons - the trouble is I know for a fact that if I encounter a PvP'er who's only motive in-game is to blow something up - preferably me - then that's what will happen. It's recently happened when I was in an exploration-fitted Clipper.

That's what compounds the scenario you posted - the not insignificant amount of players who don't even roleplay a pirate - they're just there to blow up other ships. And they'll fit their ships in the manner you describe. There's just zero competition.

I don't know what the answer to that conundrum is, to be honest. Play in Solo/Group is an option of course - but then you get D. Braben saying "come on out and play in Open - it's fun!". Then you get blown up by an indiscriminate player in their PvP-fitted monster. I mean, it's all very well DB saying "come play in Open it's the best" or words to that effect, like he did recently in a livestream, but there really are way too many players out there who do only care about how many other player's ships they blow up.

There has to be a way for everyone to play in Open and at the same time discourage indiscriminate blowing up of player's ships. I say discourage rather than ban because I do recognise that that is the way some people like to play their game - I can't argue against that - but at the same time, it's such indiscriminate behaviour that actively discourages playing in Open if you're not naturally a PvP'er or not in a ship which can handle the usual sort of alpha strikes these god-ships can perform. ( I will add that usually nowadays I can manage to high-wake out of that situation, it's just that it's getting to the point where "Oh god here we go again another player-killer in a god-ship" is getting downright dull.)

There's no doubt PVP Fit ships win vs trade/exploration ships. Do you realize you can simply high-wake out of a situation after submitting to an interdiction, though? If you have any shields at all in a Conda you should be able to make it out alive.

I don't see what any of this has to do with FDev balancing modules or ships though. We all use the same modules/ships.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

Wrong.

In one vs one, the guy using fixed wins every time.

2 Chaff = 2 minutes of damage mitigation vs the Gimbal user.

Silent Running + Mirrored Surface Armor = Shut down 90% of a Gimbal users damage.

Just saying "wrong" does not make it wrong, someone told you that already

If your gimballed opponents never thought about canceling active targetting when a chaff is dispatched, too bad for them.

Silent running is the same. And Mirrored surface armor is efficient against lasers. Lasers are not the only gimballed weapons out there.

So overall, I'm not denying you have mad skillz in combat, never actually met you one on one. I'm just saying that you should revise one or two certituds of yours regarding combat.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

There's no doubt PVP Fit ships win vs trade/exploration ships. Do you realize you can simply high-wake out of a situation after submitting to an interdiction, though? If you have any shields at all in a Conda you should be able to make it out alive.

I don't see what any of this has to do with FDev balancing modules or ships though.

You obviously glanced over what I wrote

Anyway - you don't see what a "rabid PvP loadout" against a Trade or Exploration outfit has to do with balancing modules/ships?

We all use the same modules/ships.

Same modules, same ships - different loadouts.

 

[Etherimp]

Just saying "wrong" does not make it wrong, someone told you that already

If your gimballed opponents never thought about canceling active targetting when a chaff is dispatched, too bad for them.

1. Fixed weapons have convergence, gimbals do not.
2. Fixed weapons do ~20% more damage.
3. Unlocking and using Projectile weapons is unreliable at best.
4. Fixed weapons are more accurate at longer ranges. (They do not have the sway that Gimbals do.)
5. Fixed weapons are not affected by chaff.

Silent running is the same. And Mirrored surface armor is efficient against lasers. Lasers are not the only gimballed weapons out there.

There are 4 hit scan weapons in the game. 3 Lasers, and Rail guns. Everything else is projectile. Ever try hitting a DBS which has 4 pips in engines (350+ m/s) with projectile weapons with no assist from gimbals or a targeting reticle? Means that most damage a stealth ship is going to take comes from Lasers or Rail guns.


Want to continue insulting my game knowledge or are you ready to admit Fixed > Gimbals?

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You obviously glanced over what I wrote

Anyway - you don't see what a "rabid PvP loadout" against a Trade or Exploration outfit has to do with balancing modules/ships?



Same modules, same ships - different loadouts.

Maybe you should read my suggestions.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

Want to continue insulting my game knowledge or are you ready to admit Fixed > Gimbals?

Sorry, but I've seen no evidence of that in my own experience, which may or may not be greater than yours, mind you (premium beta).

Forum talk about how the game work tends to annoy me a bit, so tell you what: right now I'm far away from the center, exploring. If you still feel confident about your theories, let's meet ingame in the same simple ships (scout is fine to me for instance), equipped all the same except for harpoints and internals, obviously, and see what comes out of it. You may beat me to a pulp, or not, but we'll do something far more demonstrative than the usual forum taunting.

 

[Etherimp]

Sorry, but I've seen no evidence of that in my own experience, which may or may not be greater than yours, mind you (premium beta).

Forum talk about how the game work tends to annoy me a bit, so tell you what: right now I'm far away from the center, exploring. If you still feel confident about your theories, let's meet ingame in the same simple ships (scout is fine to me for instance), equipped all the same except for harpoints and internals, obviously, and see what comes out of it. You may beat me to a pulp, or not, but we'll do something far more demonstrative than the usual forum taunting.

I'm fine with that. I'd much rather have you see demonstrable results than have to take my word for it.

 

[Shepard]

There is actually a legit PvP in ED? Where? The only PvP I know of, is when some event happens, and morons start to swarm at the location of the event and just KOS everyone with some poss RP excuse. This game is just that - open for whatever. And whatever usually ends up in a bull, because most of the people who like PvP in games that don't have it structured are griefers and laugh heads. There is no structure or any kind of organized PvP in ED, NADA. And that usually leads to griefing, which ED is just another example of the fact.

 

[Etherimp]

There is actually a legit PvP in ED? Where? The only PvP I know of, is when some event happens, and morons start to swarm at the location of the event and just KOS everyone with some poss RP excuse. This game is just that - open for whatever. And whatever usually ends up in a bull, because most of the people who like PvP in games that don't have it structured are griefers and laugh heads. There is no structure or any kind of organized PvP in ED, NADA. And that usually leads to griefing, which ED is just another example of the fact.

Have you ever tried contacting one of those gankers and asking them to teach you?


Every Saturday night we have structured/organized PvP in the form of workshops where we teach new players the tricks of the trade, starting with how to survive (read: escape), how to build ships effectively, and by the third week they're confident in large 4v4 wing battles in whatever ship they bring (be it a Viper or a Conda.)

 

[Shepard]

Have you ever tried contacting one of those gankers and asking them to teach you?


Every Saturday night we have structured/organized PvP in the form of workshops where we teach new players the tricks of the trade, starting with how to survive (read: escape), how to build ships effectively, and by the third week they're confident in large 4v4 wing battles in whatever ship they bring (be it a Viper or a Conda.)

And I salute you for this kind of effort. You are trying to build something, but this is not what I am talking about. ED is very shallow in terms of PvP structure. Some people like you, tipping to you my hat again, are trying hard to make a sense of it, but all tou have is your only common sense, ships and equipment. The rest of the game is like a gaping hole of nothing. Unfortunately, aside of all your efforts, there will still be people who would prefer to go on a ganking parade, or grief defenseless pilots on planets.

I wish FD finished implementing at lest one of the gameplay elements, to make it immersive and versatile. Instead they add barebones for more and more features. They are not a big developer to build up from all the skeleton they are trying to get in. We have several gameplay elements, but they are all very shallow in execution, lack of depth and content. Instead of focusing on deepening the experience of existing gameplay elements, they are sing even more shallow, lack less features. Soon, ED will be a lot of nothing and little of everything. PvP is just one of the things that utterly lacks depth in ED. Unfortunately, the workshops only give people basics of the dogfighting and ship equipment, and again, thank you for doing that, but PvP is much more than just dogfighting. It's outposts, stations, battle grounds, scenarios, rewards...

They've released CQC now, but it's just an arena, attempt of organizing PvP, completely different environment. ED always lacked the connection between game content (which is a lackluster) and the player. There is a huge disconnect in game elements and the little content that game has to offer - there is very little depth to game features, and that's why the excitement and fun only lacks a short while.

They brag that there are 1.4 million players, which is a total . Maybe 1.4 million people tried the game, but because it is so shallow, I doubt if even 5% of that number still play the game actively...

Anyways, there is no organized PvP in game, aside of efforts that couple of people make in their free time.

 

[Etherimp]

And I salute you for this kind of effort. You are trying to build something, but this is not what I am talking about. ED is very shallow in terms of PvP structure. Some people like you, tipping to you my hat again, are trying hard to make a sense of it, but all tou have is your only common sense, ships and equipment. The rest of the game is like a gaping hole of nothing. Unfortunately, aside of all your efforts, there will still be people who would prefer to go on a ganking parade, or grief defenseless pilots on planets.

I wish FD finished implementing at lest one of the gameplay elements, to make it immersive and versatile. Instead they add barebones for more and more features. They are not a big developer to build up from all the skeleton they are trying to get in. We have several gameplay elements, but they are all very shallow in execution, lack of depth and content. Instead of focusing on deepening the experience of existing gameplay elements, they are sing even more shallow, lack less features. Soon, ED will be a lot of nothing and little of everything. PvP is just one of the things that utterly lacks depth in ED. Unfortunately, the workshops only give people basics of the dogfighting and ship equipment, and again, thank you for doing that, but PvP is much more than just dogfighting. It's outposts, stations, battle grounds, scenarios, rewards...

They've released CQC now, but it's just an arena, attempt of organizing PvP, completely different environment. ED always lacked the connection between game content (which is a lackluster) and the player. There is a huge disconnect in game elements and the little content that game has to offer - there is very little depth to game features, and that's why the excitement and fun only lacks a short while.

They brag that there are 1.4 million players, which is a total . Maybe 1.4 million people tried the game, but because it is so shallow, I doubt if even 5% of that number still play the game actively...

Anyways, there is no organized PvP in game, aside of efforts that couple of people make in their free time.

http://steamcharts.com/app/359320


That's from Steam.. I do know quite a few players do not use steam.

 

[Shepard]

http://steamcharts.com/app/359320


That's from Steam.. I do know quite a few players do not use steam.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Add a few thousand backers who don't use steam, a few thousand Xbone players and you get your average 10k-15k in game concurrently, even if that many. We got too big of a game for too few people.

 

[dxm55]

They've released CQC now, but it's just an arena, attempt of organizing PvP, completely different environment. ED always lacked the connection between game content (which is a lackluster) and the player. There is a huge disconnect in game elements and the little content that game has to offer - there is very little depth to game features, and that's why the excitement and fun only lacks a short while.

They brag that there are 1.4 million players, which is a total . Maybe 1.4 million people tried the game, but because it is so shallow, I doubt if even 5% of that number still play the game actively...

Anyways, there is no organized PvP in game, aside of efforts that couple of people make in their free time.

CQC is kinda fun actually. Just like a game of Counterstrike.

I'll just take it as a place where I can fly wantonly, and pew pew, taking risks and pulling of maneuvers that I would not normally do in the normal game without risking a rebuy.
Basically just to let the hair down and act like a total bada5s.... or just an a5s.

But whatever... it's fun for what it is.


As for the number of players, it doesn't matter, really. The question is 1.4 mil players... Does that number mean that they've sold 1.4mil copies of the game? Or does that number include the beta guys?

And only 15,000 are actively playing?

Because if they've sold 1.4mil and only 15K are playing, then they've made a killing man. 99% oversold, but only 1% utilization. Money in the bank from the get go.

 

[AJW]

What? 15,000 are actively playing? Where on Earth are you getting that from? The data is for Elite Dangerous players on Steam, who are online at a specific moment in time. It doesn't include data for people with Horizons (Steam considers that a different game as far as these figures are concerned), it doesn't include people who didn't buy the game from Steam, and nobody plays for 24 hours a day. You can't derive active community figures from such data without knowing the proportion who bought from Steam, and without knowing how long on average each player is online over the relevant period.

 

[dxm55]

1. Fixed weapons have convergence, gimbals do not.
2. Fixed weapons do ~20% more damage.
3. Unlocking and using Projectile weapons is unreliable at best.
4. Fixed weapons are more accurate at longer ranges. (They do not have the sway that Gimbals do.)
5. Fixed weapons are not affected by chaff.

Agreed with points 2 to 5.

2. You can see the stats in the outfit screen that fixed weaps do more damage.
3. Projectile weaps require leading the target to connect. Unlocking the target means you'll need to employ dead reckoning. Not easy when turning and burning.
4. Yes to this too. I use 4 gimballed beam lasers. They sway noticeably when firing at a target, dead ahead, even when not chaffed.
5. Uh... yes. obviously.


But how about 1?
I have not noticed that.
I've swapped between fixed beam lasers and gimballed on the same hardpoint, and noticed that the target dot is in the same position when there's no target lock.

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What? 15,000 are actively playing? Where on Earth are you getting that from? The data is for Elite Dangerous players on Steam, who are online at a specific moment in time. It doesn't include data for people with Horizons (Steam considers that a different game as far as these figures are concerned), it doesn't include people who didn't buy the game from Steam, and nobody plays for 24 hours a day. You can't derive active community figures from such data without knowing the proportion who bought from Steam, and without knowing how long on average each player is online over the relevant period.

My bad. I assumed it was taken over the period of a day.

But how about that 1.4mil? Is that figure the number of players or actual purchases?

 

[AJW]

"Frontier sold 1.4 million units of Elite Dangerous across PC, Mac and Xbox One by the end of December 2015" http://Frontier sold 1.4 million un...Mac and Xbox One by the end of December 2015.

 

[dxm55]

"Frontier sold 1.4 million units of Elite Dangerous across PC, Mac and Xbox One by the end of December 2015" http://Frontier sold 1.4 million un...Mac and Xbox One by the end of December 2015.

Good money for FD. Can't wait to see the figures for Horizons.

 

[Vasious]

Why don't you think Attack Limpets fit into the game universe?

The Reliance on Short Range Fighters by the two Super Powers' Capital Ships
The Aversion and Ban on AI
That the Surface Skimmers are written up as remote control rather than automated
Hatch Breaker limpets rely on unshielded physical contact rather than inbuilt weapons to pop cargo hatches
Attack Drones were the Thargoids thing

 

[Etherimp]

But how about 1?
I have not noticed that.
I've swapped between fixed beam lasers and gimballed on the same hardpoint, and noticed that the target dot is in the same position when there's no target lock.

Fixed weapons have a slight amount of aim-assist added to them. Try them out in a HazRES or CZ .. or a pirate from super-cruise.

It's amazing how few people realize this.

 

[Mephane]

There has to be a way for everyone to play in Open and at the same time discourage indiscriminate blowing up of player's ships. I say discourage rather than ban because I do recognise that that is the way some people like to play their game - I can't argue against that - but at the same time, it's such indiscriminate behaviour that actively discourages playing in Open if you're not naturally a PvP'er or not in a ship which can handle the usual sort of alpha strikes these god-ships can perform. ( I will add that usually nowadays I can manage to high-wake out of that situation, it's just that it's getting to the point where "Oh god here we go again another player-killer in a god-ship" is getting downright dull.)

I said it in the past and I'll say it again, a simple fix would be to waive all consequences for death when you are killed by a player who is wanted while you are clean. No rebuy cost, no loss of bounties or exploration data, missions don't fail automatically etc. (with some exceptions, a dedicated mission cargo would still be lost, but not a courier, pirate hunt etc). That way someone blowing up your ship may be a nuisance, but not the massive setback as it currently is, and this is a fairly standard measure in MMOs to allow full open world PvP without deterring any PvE player who just want to get stuff done.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I said it in the past and I'll say it again, a simple fix would be to waive all consequences for death when you are killed by a player who is wanted while you are clean. No rebuy cost, no loss of bounties or exploration data, missions don't fail automatically etc. (with some exceptions, a dedicated mission cargo would still be lost, but not a courier, pirate hunt etc). That way someone blowing up your ship may be a nuisance, but not the massive setback as it currently is, and this is a fairly standard measure in MMOs to allow full open world PvP without deterring any PvE player who just want to get stuff done.

That is very gamey tho imo, and would detract from what is imo generally about being a sim of the semi believable life of a spaceman (as opposed to a space ship sim which i would also love).

i suppose it could work if when the aggressor was eventually bought to justice their fine & bounty - which is taken before their insurance pay out - included the cost that the insurance paid outs to all their victims and went into a "victim of crime" pot. That way lore wise it isnt that the player blown up did not lose anything, it is just that they get a large amount paid back to them, ultimately paid for by the aggressor themselves, even if it means bankrupting them.

This fine would have to only account for ship destruction otherwise it would kill proper piracy.