FDEV Why did you ignore your original fanbase?

I probably won't get an answer to this, but I would like to attempt to ask Frontier Developments why the original Elite fanbase, ie those of us who were members of this forum asking for an Elite sequel before Elite Dangerous was even a thing, have been mostly ignored throughout most of this games development?

Yeah, I know that it probably sounds a bit entitled to ask a question like this. Afterall, who the hell am I to get a bit haughty about the state of a game when I had not part in making it. I'm sure there are plenty of other gamers out there who love the game as much as some of us older gamers are left a bit cold by it. But without those of us who were here before Elite Dangerous became a thing,the developers at FDev wouldn't have even known that there was an audience for a new version of Elite. Afterall, the last one before this was released in 1995, so it could be considered a forgotten project no longer in the consciousness of the wider gaming audience.

When I first joined these forums in 2008, there was a lot of clamour and speculation about "Elite 4". Where was it? Why hadn't it been made? Was David Braben secretly working on a version without us knowing? We kept asking, and asking, and asking...

And then Elite Dangerous came into view! We backed it, we bought it hook line and sinker... We were finally going to get the long awaited sequel to Frontier Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters. Basically everything that the old games were but with more life, and much better graphics... When it finally arrived it was more like the original Elite, but this was fine... Surely the add-ons and expansions to turn Elite Dangerous into something like FFE or FE2 but BETTER would come in the first year or two or three? But no... We expected big things (because why not when the previous games were so epic?), and instead what we got was a shallow, watered down, MMO "games as a service" thing that looks a bit like Elite but has very few of its features!

It all looked good around the release of Horizons with the release of rocky worlds to land on, and many of us foolishly thought that we'd get more planets the following year... but nothing... All the additions we've had have been mostly bug fixes, tweaks to existing features or multiplayer content... nothing that actually turns Elite Dangerous into a game worthy of the Elite name.

So, many years on down the line, and we're still playing a game that feels like many of its features are placeholders... What's going on? Why haven't you delivered to your original fanbase what they wanted, which was basically FE2 with better graphics? Surely filler like CQC, Powerplay, Carriers, Multicrew, etc, could have waited until you'd actually finished the development of the things that the other games had? Surely the base product should have been to recreate Elite 84, then through add-ons bring it up to the level of Frontier Elite 2 or First Encounters, and finally start to flesh out the game with content like Carriers, Power Play, Space Legs, CQC and Multicrew? Surely that would have made a lot more sense that the disjointed development that the game has had so far? Or have you just decided to ignore the core features form the older games because you could?

What you've done here is the equivalent of DC Comics announcing a new Batman movie, but he spends the entire film dressed in a pink bunny outfit. Sure it's still Batman, sort of, but it's a bit of an insult to the original fans...

I'm not saying that new fans of the game can't enjoy it, but there wouldn't be new fans without us older fans who were asking for an Elite game for years. Some of us who'd been fans for a long time wanted something different to this thing that we've got. Something more... Elite!
 
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Maybe it is opening a can of worms... but I think FDev could at least try to explain why there was such a push to make Elite Dangerous so different to the previous games. Elite Dangerous is currently like a Hollywood remake of a classic movie done in episodic form. Some of the main elements are there, but it's been re-written so much that it has only a passing resemblance to the source material, most of the main characters have been re-written and many have been completely removed altogether... So instead of a modern retelling of an old classic brought up to date, what we've ended up with is a shallow rehash that captures very little of what made the original such a classic, but the script writers are so short of new ideas (or maybe money) that they have to keep adding filler that moves the story further and further away from it's original concept every time a new episode is released.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but surely it makes sense to retain as much of what made the previous games classics, and focus on getting that stuff done first, before you start adding "new features"?
 
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Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but surely it makes sense to retain as much of what made the previous games classics, and focus on getting that stuff done first, before you start adding "new features"?


As someone who played '84 Elite, I'm gonna have to say, yeah, this is a bit of an old-fashioned view. It's unsurprising that they would look to expand the game's functionality via modern means. Do things that Braben et al would have liked to do, but couldn't with prior entries etc.

Pursuing a 'recreate the past first, add modern extensions later' approach risks making a curate's egg only attractive to retro-fans.

In fairness to Braben and co, they seem to have been fairly vocal over the years about a desire to add both multiplayer to the ED world, and to pursue more radical extensions such as 'Legs' etc, which would extend what Braben seems to see as Elite's core qualities (IE the open world, as personified by GTA), and away from some of its perceived core qualities (space trucking sim etc).

DB: Well, we started it in 2000--and we stopped it in 2000. The reason was, we started it as a MMORPG, and the technology at the time for connectivity was rubbish. It had been oversold by the providers. We realised very quickly that what we wanted to do would overload the system and that we would end up taking the blame for the failings of the telecommunications industry. It was put on hold after that. Now we've decided to do two projects: One will be a single-player game, and the other will be the massively multiplayer online role-playing game. We will do Elite 4 after Outsider, so it will benefit from everything we've done in Outsider. In Elite, you were a spaceship, to move on to be a person, so many other things have to happen. Apologies for it taking so long, and I really mean that, but it's a game dear to my heart, and I don't want to do it badly. (2006)

That depends on which games you mean. For example, the producer of Grand Theft Auto was before that the producer on Frontier. He described Grand Theft Auto as "Elite in the city." The biggest legacy of Elite was that it showed the "coin drop" mentality had gone away. There are games like the X games and Eve Online, but they're not really the true successors of Elite--they're just re-implementing an '80s game. They've completely ignored the reason it was what it was. There is so much you can do. And you'll see that in The Outsider. (2006)

Nevertheless, I have never seen Elite as (just) a space trading game - it is way more than that - even though I realise this is how it has been classified since. What we plan to with Elite 4 is quite different, and much of what we are doing in Outsider will feed into that. (2006)

Multiplayer has always fascinated me and it’s always been the thing that I wanted to add next to Elite because it just enriches the gameplay so much being able to play socially. (2012)


I think given that backdrop, a long-term 'Elite 4' follower should perhaps not have expected a direct FE2 reboot. (Aspects such as offline time dilation etc were obviously non-starters).

But in many respects, we got a brand new shiny Elite '84, with bonus multiplayer. It's just that from that base they intended to head off down some 'untrodden by Elite' paths.

It's certainly been a weird bundle of overly-ambitious architecture and under-cohesive output to date, over its whole span. But I reckon the DLC could fling the odd intriguing surprise our way still. (Just not a 'We made FE3!' style surprise ;))
 
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What you've done here is the equivalent of DC Comics announcing a new Batman movie, but he spends the entire film dressed in a pink bunny outfit. Sure it's still Batman, sort of, but it's a bit of an insult to the original fans...

This made me laugh. Games companys think they know best... look where diablo has taken itself when all anybody ever wanted was a remake of diablo 2. The players want something like a piece of art, devs want MVP.

Even when somebody manages to make a decent remake of an old game they cant help themself but to mess with the details or the story in some way.
 
Pursuing a 'recreate the past first, add modern extensions later' approach risks making a curate's egg only attractive to retro-fans

I think that's nonsense for a start.

Bear in mind that there hadn't been a game anything like Elite or Frontier Elite 2 since 1995, and the games were miles ahead of any other space trading/shooter games out there. I'd understand your argument if I was saying only make the old game and not add anything new, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the goal should have been to create the foundations of the new game based on the old game and then add to it... it'd still look new because there's not been a game like it for over 20 years, so new players wouldn't feel like they were just playing something retro, and it'd be expanded over time...

Instead, though, FDev have jumped straight into the additions. And it wouldn't be so bad is people had been asking for Carriers, CQC*, FSS, power play and multicrew, but nobody ever did. FDev just decided that's what the community really wanted and ignored the multiple requests for atmospheric worlds and space legs... That's not progress, it's just sheer bloody-minded pigheadedness.

I don't think anyone who ever bought Elite Dangerous ever thought "You know what this game needs? A tacked-on arena shooter mode!"
 
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I probably won't get an answer to this, but I would like to attempt to ask Frontier Developments why the original Elite fanbase, ie those of us who were members of this forum asking for an Elite sequel before Elite Dangerous was even a thing, have been mostly ignored throughout most of this games development?

Yeah, I know that it probably sounds a bit entitled to ask a question like this. Afterall, who the hell am I to get a bit haughty about the state of a game when I had not part in making it. I'm sure there are plenty of other gamers out there who love the game as much as some of us older gamers are left a bit cold by it. But without those of us who were here before Elite Dangerous became a thing,the developers at FDev wouldn't have even known that there was an audience for a new version of Elite. Afterall, the last one before this was released in 1995, so it could be considered a forgotten project no longer in the consciousness of the wider gaming audience.

When I first joined these forums in 2008, there was a lot of clamour and speculation about "Elite 4". Where was it? Why hadn't it been made? Was David Braben secretly working on a version without us knowing? We kept asking, and asking, and asking...

And then Elite Dangerous came into view! We backed it, we bought it hook line and sinker... We were finally going to get the long awaited sequel to Frontier Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters. Basically everything that the old games were but with more life, and much better graphics... When it finally arrived it was more like the original Elite, but this was fine... Surely the add-ons and expansions to turn Elite Dangerous into something like FFE or FE2 but BETTER would come in the first year or two or three? But no... We expected big things (because why not when the previous games were so epic?), and instead what we got was a shallow, watered down, MMO "games as a service" thing that looks a bit like Elite but has very few of its features!

It all looked good around the release of Horizons with the release of rocky worlds to land on, and many of us foolishly thought that we'd get more planets the following year... but nothing... All the additions we've had have been mostly bug fixes, tweaks to existing features or multiplayer content... nothing that actually turns Elite Dangerous into a game worthy of the Elite name.

So, many years on down the line, and we're still playing a game that feels like many of its features are placeholders... What's going on? Why haven't you delivered to your original fanbase what they wanted, which was basically FE2 with better graphics? Surely filler like CQC, Powerplay, Carriers, Multicrew, etc, could have waited until you'd actually finished the development of the things that the other games had? Surely the base product should have been to recreate Elite 84, then through add-ons bring it up to the level of Frontier Elite 2 or First Encounters, and finally start to flesh out the game with content like Carriers, Power Play, Space Legs, CQC and Multicrew? Surely that would have made a lot more sense that the disjointed development that the game has had so far? Or have you just decided to ignore the core features form the older games because you could?

What you've done here is the equivalent of DC Comics announcing a new Batman movie, but he spends the entire film dressed in a pink bunny outfit. Sure it's still Batman, sort of, but it's a bit of an insult to the original fans...

I'm not saying that new fans of the game can't enjoy it, but there wouldn't be new fans without us older fans who were asking for an Elite game for years. Some of us who'd been fans for a long time wanted something different to this thing that we've got. Something more... Elite!

If they had just done a modern version of Elite 1984 I would have been happy. I am still happy enough with the game as it stands but if the servers went off line tomorrow I would just go back to Oolite.
 
I'm saying the goal should have been to create the foundations of the new game based on the old game and then add to it...


It depends on what your feature list is for that really.

Like would you require FE2 style planetary landings first? Prior to any other novel gameplay? (Given how long it's taken them to get to Atmospherics with a modern sheen, it might have been a long wait for Org functions, or co-op Wing play, or what have you.)

Do you mean they should have started with an offline-only version, and then worked in Multiplayer later? (Because that's really not an ideal way to either add the tech, or design the gameplay).

It just smacks of a desire for fan-service that would have narrowed the scope for the game excessively. (As much as I do believe the game's scope has actually been too broad for its resourcing).

Anyways it's kinda academic now I guess.


I don't think anyone who ever bought Elite Dangerous ever thought "You know what this game needs? A tacked-on arena shooter mode!"


As much as I'd agree that the whole Seasonal approach has been a farrago on several levels, and that CQC should indeed never have been introduced at the stage it was. (They should have stuck with Core improvements, and added it as a luxury toy way down the line. Suspect it was ultimately an Xbox commission, as it was originally aimed to be an Xbox-exclusive)...

CQC is ace. In VR doubly so ;)

Different strokes for different folks ¯\(ツ)
 
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And it wouldn't be so bad is people had been asking for Carriers,

Executive class megaships were part of the Kickstarter pitch as an explicit example of a future DLC

This was part of one of the quarterly updates, and CQC introduced the assets for SLF (which is great) and structures in the main game. Lets not pretend that this too any serious amount of attention away from the Big Features. CQC is actually loads of fun in VR though.


A clear improvement over the asinine 'mechanic' we had before. Not sure why anyone would be averse to upgrading a core aspect of one of the central professions.

power play
A way to have groups of people fight over territory has been asked for since I joined in 2014. It always led to forum wars about how ED is not EvE, but people did ask for it. Not my personal focus, but good for those who do like that.

and multicrew
While I am disappointed in how it was implemented, the concept of MC is obviously something that belong in a multiplayer spaceship game.

but nobody ever did.

You know, you can just say:"I personally wanted something else, that makes me sad." As for the 'where are the space legs/atmo planets? Why did they never work on that?" rhetoric: we'll find out this summer if that is indeed true or whether they have been working on that. As they already confirmed numerous times, but hey.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
I probably won't get an answer to this, but I would like to attempt to ask Frontier Developments why the original Elite fanbase, ie those of us who were members of this forum asking for an Elite sequel before Elite Dangerous was even a thing, have been mostly ignored throughout most of this games development?
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I'm not saying that new fans of the game can't enjoy it, but there wouldn't be new fans without us older fans who were asking for an Elite game for years. Some of us who'd been fans for a long time wanted something different to this thing that we've got. Something more... Elite!
I'm an 84 player on the BBC & huge fan of frontier on my old amiga. Despite checking online every year or so for news I didn't join the forum but was a kickstarter backer once I found out it was in progress.
Basically, you've described my feelings towards the game perfectly.
Many people have contributed to the elite universe over the years for free - oolite, various authors both professional and and fan fic etc, so you would have thought the lore and "eliteness" would have been simple however FD have managed to totally screw it up and create a game with all of the feel of its predecessors gone, stuffed full of poorly realised, thin additions that no one wanted and few use. It feels more empty than FE2.
What a shame and what a missed chance.
I really hope the "next era" is decent for both the players and for FD.
 
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