FDevs does everything have to be a grind?

[Vorxian]

If they made all ships free or gave all players 5 billion players, do you think people would still play the game?

Strangely enough... even if FDEV made ships free (removing the need for money to pay for hardware), I'd still play ED in exactly the same way as I do now. ASPx, in deep space taking the sights in

Fdev could give me 800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 credits, and I'd still be doing the same thing

The USP of Elite Dangerous is the galaxy, and the wondrous 1:1 recreation of it. Lucky I have no cash issues in game, but, grind walls do get in the way of motivation... eg:

Doing this for hours on end to unlock better range on FSD..

Less of the nonsense, more indulgence in the galaxy!

 

[mbar]

Skyrim takes hundreds of hours to fully "complete" (excluding radiant quests). And progression isn't really all that different either, you kill NPC's, pickup loot, level up and get better gear /enhance powers so you can keep killing NPCs and so on. Like in ED, yo ustart with crap gear and skills, and get better gear and skills over time. Like in ED you don0t get a Cutter in a day, in Skyrim you won't get all shouts and ebony armour in a day either.

It isn't really that much different from ED in that regard. What makes Skyrim special is all the little things that provide mountains of wonderful immersion that makes us forget that we are actually doing the same thing over and over (and don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Skyrim). But in gameplay terms, it's the same. In ED you do some stuff to get more credits that allow you to get other ships and better gear so you can keep doing the same stuff. Just like in Skyrim (or pretty much every other game).

What I don't understand is why is this considered "a grind" in ED, but perfectly acceptable in most other games, Skyrim included. Why is trading in a Type-6 "a grind" but later trading in a Anaconda is "gameplay". Or why shooting ships in a Vulture is "a grind", but then shooting ships in a Anaconda is "gameplay".

I will have to agree. It is a matter of mindset. The way I play Skyrim, I level up to about 30 and I'm ready to try something else. When I was resting saves in ED, my mind set was getting into a cobra III was "good enough."

 

[Darkfyre99]

What is the definition of "grind" anyway, from a gameplay perspective?

What gameplay mechanics are there that are not "grind"?
How much of a game (or what kind of a game) would you have left if you restrict its design to not "grind" gameplay mechanics?

Maybe agreeing to some common terms and definitions may make this discussion more constructive.

The definition of grind I'm familiar with is repeating the same action, over and over again, in order to advance. The most classic example is an RPG where you need to be level 10 to enter the next dungeon that advances the plot, you're level 8, and there's no level 9 content. So you end up repeating the level 8 content over and over and over again.

The reason why grinding in Elite: Dangerous is considered optional is because:

• There isn't advancement in the classical sense. You can do everything you can do in an Anaconda can be done in a Sidewinder, except launch a fighter. Ships are tools in this game, not the equivalent of leveling up, and assuming that a bigger ship is automatically better is a mistake. A bigger ship, in the hands of a skilled player, can be the right tool for a job, but will cause an inexperienced player to hemorrhage credits every time they undock.
• There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat in this game. There are usually multiple paths to any particular objective you could name. Some of those paths are obscure, but they do exist.

There are some exceptions, of course. A prime example would be unlocking an Engineer solely for the sake of unlocking that Engineer. I don't see much point in this myself, especially if it requires doing something I don't enjoy to do so, but to each their own.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I think the only way we can resolve the 'is it a grind' Debate is by not defining the only relevant term and instead argue whether it is a simulation or not, without defining that either. Just to be safe, I would like to mention that Elite is a deep game.

Internet discussions. Going nowhere since 1783.

 

[Vorxian]

Elite is not a simulation. Not even close.



The difference between ED and skyrim is that skyrim's "grinding" doesn't involve staying in the same spot for hours. There is also a variety in the levels you can clear, which is not present in Elite, since every RES and CZ feels the same. Skyrim also has storytelling elements included everywhere, which makes it feel less like a grind.

+1 plus also, skyrim has a rich story, it's very easy to get drawn in to the characters, their plots, some good others wicked to the core, but it's this diversity that draws attention away from the fact that you may be just killing things for bats ears, or collecting mushrooms for powerups.

I never heard once anyone say that playing The Witcher was a grind... to be frank, the story and immersion completely masks any presence of 'grind', and that.. that is clever game design. Cudos to those that pull it off!

 

[Ben Sevil]

What I don't understand is why is this considered "a grind" in ED, but perfectly acceptable in most other games, Skyrim included.

Mods, for me.

 

[EUS]

Skyrim takes hundreds of hours to fully "complete" (excluding radiant quests). And progression isn't really all that different either, you kill NPC's, pickup loot, level up and get better gear /enhance powers so you can keep killing NPCs and so on. Like in ED, yo ustart with crap gear and skills, and get better gear and skills over time. Like in ED you don0t get a Cutter in a day, in Skyrim you won't get all shouts and ebony armour in a day either.

It isn't really that much different from ED in that regard. What makes Skyrim special is all the little things that provide mountains of wonderful immersion that makes us forget that we are actually doing the same thing over and over (and don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Skyrim). But in gameplay terms, it's the same. In ED you do some stuff to get more credits that allow you to get other ships and better gear so you can keep doing the same stuff. Just like in Skyrim (or pretty much every other game).

What I don't understand is why is this considered "a grind" in ED, but perfectly acceptable in most other games, Skyrim included. Why is trading in a Type-6 "a grind" but later trading in a Anaconda is "gameplay". Or why shooting ships in a Vulture is "a grind", but then shooting ships in a Anaconda is "gameplay".

I've played Skyrim a lot (still do!), and have to say that if I were to compare the 2 games, I would compare every activity in ED to grinding armor lvls for dragon bone/scale lvl in Skyrim, because all the other activities/quests/exploring in skyrim are fun, and don't get stale.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The definition of grind I'm familiar with is repeating the same action, over and over again, in order to advance. The most classic example is an RPG where you need to be level 10 to enter the next dungeon that advances the plot, you're level 8, and there's no level 9 content. So you end up repeating the level 8 content over and over and over again.​

That is basically what it always means, with the addition that the activity has to be trivial, devoid of challenge, cannot be bypassed in any way and there is no other kind of advancement possible. Killing a million rats would count typically in MMOs and older rpgs. In ED, those complaining about grind feel they have to do [insert something] to get to [something they want]. Only a few things can legit be called a grind (drag some unique luxury good back and forth of times to unlock some engineer) if we ignore the 'you dont have to do it' aspect. The latter of course is a bit of a slippery slope.

Most things do are not: you can get money/rank/whatnot in a variety of different ways, and they are not fundamentally different than what you would do if you had reached that goal. It is linked with the 'there is no narrative' complaint: some people NEED clear-cut goals with clear cut roads towards them and a clear reward afterwards. Lacking that, they pick something 'and start grinding'. They know quite literally no other way, no alternative approach to anything. It is frustrating to them but they cannot see they have an influence on it. It'll never stop.

I've played Skyrim a lot (still do!), and have to say that if I were to compare the 2 games, I would compare every activity in ED to grinding armor lvls for dragonbone lvl in Skyrim, because all the other activities/quests/exploring in skyrim are fun, and don't get stale.

Yeah, the flight model in ED is way below the walking model in Skyrim. The two games are opposites: the actual flying is the core of ED. In Skyrim, the actual walking/combat is really mediocre. If you play ED with the mindset that flying the ship is just something you need to get over with so you can get to 'the good parts', it will never be any fun.​

 

[EUS]

walking=exploration, and is a hell of a lot better in Skyrim.
But again, opinions and butts, we all have them.

 

[Vorxian]

It's just not fair to compare it to Skyrim.

A more appropriate comparison would be to compare certain more repetitive activities in ED (like engineers) to, say, whisking egg whites.

Eventually you'll end up with stiff peaks for your meringue, but damn your arm will hurt like hell, and you'll not want to see another darn egg for a year.

Then you need to do something else, and face another round of egg whites, or you put the whisk away, and do something else until your motivation returns (be it in game or, something else entirely).

damn i need coffee.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I would love to have five billion players. Anyway, I had all the money I need long ago. I mostly fly tiny cheap ships, and can afford insurance thousands of times. But I am not someone who plays games for steam achievements or bragging rights, but only because I like playing them. Weird concept, I know. I have an alt account that rarely gets above +-2 million before a reset. Fun to me. Probably not to you.

Anyway, you cant say 'survival games arent grindy' without looking daft, lol. Now go chop 1000 more wood for that wall, bro.

LMAO "here! Have 5 billion players to do what you want with!" [haha][haha]

 

[Jex =TE=]

Anyway, you cant say 'survival games arent grindy' without looking daft, lol. Now go chop 1000 more wood for that wall, bro.

DayZ
The Forest
Project Zomboid

There are plenty of survival games where you don't have to grind though.

 

[Jex =TE=]

no argument from me there... Trading could be far better than it is now.... but allowing huge trade ships which haul 1000s of tons of low value times whilst not allowing the same ships to do the same with imperial slaves is the challenge........ and indeed i think the answer is huge npc convoys

so we would carry on trading the low ticket number high profit items, but the other stuff would have purpose with missions to protect a huge food convoy of ships to a system in famine. etc.

No I mean they can haul what they want so think of this.

You go to a system with a 1000 ton hold. There is either 20,000 tons of FC's to buy or you can buy 58 tons of gold.

At the other end, the gold will fetch a profit of 4500 credits say, and the FC's will give you 18,000 credit profit.

Now I understand that people find trade routes so it's not something that would work in game if they introduced 1000 cargo ships as people still wouldn't buy FC's which is why the entire trade thing needs an overhaul along with all prices.

Or just get rid of the stupid stock items nobody sells. Why are they there?

 

[babelfisch]

I think the only viable way to reduce 'the grind' is to improve the game rather than making progression faster / easier. Rank progression for example would feel less grindy if we would finally have a proper naval career.

 

[Aashenfox]

Quite, if missions were fun and engaging, it wouldn't matter that they don't pay millions.

 

[Ian Skippy]

DayZ

Well, some people consider 'find more beans every ten minute' to be a grind, and 'click 20 times to roast meat into steak' a grind.

Thats kinda the thing: something isn't objectively a grind in most cases, its individual perception. If you think DayZ is grind-free, have fun. Honestly, I wont get mad, upset, frustrated, depressed or angry about it. I wont try to talk you out of it. I hold zero resentment for you not feeling a grind in DayZ. I wont consider it wrong, or right. It is just your opinion.

When it gets weird though is when people insist others should start perceiving grind and have no fun, and apparantly get very upset when they see others enjoying a different game. Then it becomes borderline pathological. IMHO.

Quite, if missions were fun and engaging, it wouldn't matter that they don't pay millions.

The weird thing is that it seems missions can be improved during one dev's lunch.

"Hey John, what about that informant who tells you where the target is?"
"What about it Bill?"
"Where should we send the player to?"
"Always right back to the very system where he just came from."
"Always?"
"Always."
"Wont that be stupid?"
"Nah, they'll never notice."

 

[Aashenfox]

Well, some people consider 'find more beans every ten minute' to be a grind, and 'click 20 times to roast meat into steak' a grind.

Thats kinda the thing: something isn't objectively a grind in most cases, its individual perception. If you think DayZ is grind-free, have fun. Honestly, I wont get mad, upset, frustrated, depressed or angry about it. I wont try to talk you out of it. I hold zero resentment for you not feeling a grind in DayZ. I wont consider it wrong, or right. It is just your opinion.

When it gets weird though is when people insist others should start perceiving grind and have no fun, and apparantly get very upset when they see others enjoying a different game. Then it becomes borderline pathological. IMHO.



The weird thing is that it seems missions can be improved during one dev's lunch.

"Hey John, what about that informant who tells you where the target is?"
"What about it Bill?"
"Where should we send the player to?"
"Always right back to the very system where he just came from."
"Always?"
"Always."
"Wont that be stupid?"
"Nah, they'll never notice."

You know, all this time, I thought I was just unlucky 300 times in a row, always getting sent back to the same system. Damn, it always happens, huh? lol

 

[Ian Skippy]

You know, all this time, I thought I was just unlucky 300 times in a row, always getting sent back to the same system. Damn, it always happens, huh? lol

Nah, its just one of those 'really, FD?' kinda things. If anything, that is what I hope 2018 fixes. Not the main 'guild bases' and such high-investment features from the devs, but some low hanging fruit. Better NPC comms that make sense. Or having people, you know, actually interdict me when flying a combat ship. Make in-space mission choices meaningful and not just a 'hmm, 10k for selling out my faction by dumping refugees into slavery' novelties.

 

[Aashenfox]

Nah, its just one of those 'really, FD?' kinda things. If anything, that is what I hope 2018 fixes. Not the main 'guild bases' and such high-investment features from the devs, but some low hanging fruit. Better NPC comms that make sense. Or having people, you know, actually interdict me when flying a combat ship. Make in-space mission choices meaningful and not just a 'hmm, 10k for selling out my faction by dumping refugees into slavery' novelties.

Don't even get me started.

 

[withnail]

Quite, if missions were fun and engaging, it wouldn't matter that they don't pay millions.

This is the nub of it.

Make the interim gameplay fun and you don't need to do the grind to get somewhere.

There are different play styles here and it would seem that the number of comments about the grind must surely be indicative of something being wrong.

It can't solely be the fault of the players who voice their concerns.