FDevs vision conflicts with Elites features: Another win for bots.

[Rubbernuke]

My concern is that FD are reactive about bot reports, and not proactively looking for them. We know from those spotted in open FD did something, but that was done with a lot of prodding and work from players.

If the bots operate in solo or PG, it would be impossible to report them and FD would shrug saying its all cool, nothing to see.

 

[Floaty Wombat]

However, it doesn't answer the big question: How are FDev going to take extra measures for bot detection, when you've just made the 'harder' parts of coding (undocking and travel) they require an accessable, valid part of the game?

If the bots operate in solo or PG, it would be impossible to report them and FD would shrug saying its all cool, nothing to see.

I don't want to destroy your hopes, but there is very little FDev can do. Bot detection is extremely hard, and very expensive, especially when it's just a third party program taking controls over the windows system to do all the input and stuff.
There is very little they actually CAN do, without waiting for people to be reported.

What they can however is changing their game, to make human interaction rewarding and fun, so that botting will simple become unprofitable and "not fun" anymore, and therefore cease to exist.
Sadly, I don't have high hopes for that, seeing that the grind is exactly what FDev thinks is "great gameplay".

Ironically, none of the gamedevs actually goes through the grind, and I doubt they actually play the same way a new player has to, as is very obvious e.g. when they just spawn in money into their accounts.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I don't want to destroy your hopes, but there is very little FDev can do. Bot detection is extremely hard, and very expensive, especially when it's just a third party program taking controls over the windows system to do all the input and stuff.
There is very little they actually CAN do, without waiting for people to be reported.

What they can however is changing their game, to make human interaction rewarding and fun, so that botting will simple become unprofitable and "not fun" anymore, and therefore cease to exist.
Sadly, I don't have high hopes for that, seeing that the grind is exactly what FDev thinks is "great gameplay".

Ironically, none of the gamedevs actually goes through the grind, and I doubt they actually play the same way a new player has to, as is very obvious e.g. when they just spawn in money into their accounts.

Indeed, FD must know by now many parts of ED are very susceptible and need redesigning. Hopefully the fuss generated will at least give FD pause and focus their minds on the next pre 2020 update.

 

[Wescott]

Hey everyone, we addressed botting on a previous thread, so I'll pop the response here:

We really don't want or need the details of each botting that was reported but a monthly summary of how many reported and were subsequently penalised or banned as a result would be good for the communities spirit.

 

[VR Murgle]

So I was thinking, if botting really is as wide spread as some here seem to suggest then where are the ads selling fully engineered Cutters and Corvettes for cold hard cash?

 

[Wrecked]

It's true, and that's one of the reasons I quit after 3.3 dropped. But FDev have had £300 off me; perhaps they are right to think they are better off chasing new money, even if it is to the detriment of the end-game experience.

The game isn’t done yet. I truly believe FDev will address many of these end game issues with the 2020 update. My reasoning is because they have acknowledged that endgame needs work and they’re not doing it right now, likely because it will come with the huge update.

I’ve been taking a break from the game for a while myself. I still want to go back and play again (and I know I will), but for now, I’m looking to do something different.

 

[Maolagin]

But unfortunately that's where the positive nature of these “training wheels” features ends, because undocking, and supercruise throttle where arguably the hardest parts of scripting for botters. The undetectable version of bot software we know of rely on visual cues to reference its position or it's place in a sequence of events such as undocking, lifting off, aiming for the mailslot and being out of mass lock range. Now the game does the majority of this for them, providing botters with a reliable in game solution.

For as long as the docking computer has existed, there have been requests for it to also handle undocking. As I said in the announce thread, I think the fact that FDev are finally doing it now has less to do with making life easier for beginners, than as a tacit admission that the state of the art in computer vision-based bots is now good enough that undocking no longer poses a challenge to their use. I would certainly hope that means they are putting additional resources into data-driven approaches to dealing with the issue. They're certainly not the first games company to deal with it, so with the right hires there's no need to reinvent any wheels.

If Sandros proposal is implemented, the weighting would make automation and 5C have to work much, much harder. But in the end only good design can eliminate bots, and limiting the easy hauling process with more random elements.

I would no longer go so far as to say that all gameplay that can be automated is bad gameplay - after all, computers can reliably beat humans at chess now, but chess is still a well-designed and challenging game. But you emphatically are not allowed to bring a computer along to a chess tournament and use it to figure out your moves. Similarly, PP could very well be made into an interesting and challenging boardgame while still being possible to automate. There's no question though, that making PP less repetitive would both make it more fun for the human players, and raise the challenge level for those who want to automate.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

OP - the bots already exist, they don't need these new modules.

All this panic over the new modules is just a waste of energy.

 

[CMDR Tom D]

OP - the bots already exist, they don't need these new modules.

All this panic over the new modules is just a waste of energy.

Not at all. Bot tech is built around the game and now FDev is supplying an in built solution cutting out the middle man.
This will drive down the overall unreliabilty of their software and ultimately increase their efficiency.
This is a HUGE issue and will continue to be for as long as time and quantative based gameplay exists over perfomance based.

 

[Wrecked]

Can you buy Citizen Zero, play it for a few weeks, and tell me if It's as awesome as it looks?

Already have, the game is awesome! You should get it.

 

[Space Mage]

OP - the bots already exist, they don't need these new modules.

All this panic over the new modules is just a waste of energy.

Previously building such a bot in Elite would require far more effort, so getting such a script would require knowing the right person for the vast majority of people. Now all it takes is some basic python knowledge and a couple google searches.

 

[Space Mage]

There's also a strange feature in the current narrative: it's said that they started in Open and switched to Solo when people started blowing them up. I find it hard to imagine that someone capable of writing a bot wouldn't think of using Solo from the start.

If you'll actually read OPs earlier post, you'll see that early models of the bots couldn't distinguish between logging into open and solo. They simply task killed whenever in danger. Later after they began to be reported the bot creators updated the script to detect which mode it was in.

 

[Space Mage]

That's how you solve it then. Non-static page right there. A work-around, until they can do it correctly.

Sure, there are an incredible number of solutions to choose from. Frontier will pick none of the above, just as they have for the past 3 years.

 

[Kaocraft]

Hey everyone, we addressed botting on a previous thread, so I'll pop the response here:

"Your call is important to us . . ."

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Previously building such a bot in Elite would require far more effort, so getting such a script would require knowing the right person for the vast majority of people. Now all it takes is some basic python knowledge and a couple google searches.

Once again, the bots are built already and possibly are even more sophisticated than ED's own routines.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Not at all. Bot tech is built around the game and now FDev is supplying an in built solution cutting out the middle man.
This will drive down the overall unreliabilty of their software and ultimately increase their efficiency.
This is a HUGE issue and will continue to be for as long as time and quantative based gameplay exists over perfomance based.

You're assuming the bots are not already more sophisticated than what ED is providing.

Look at what FD are providing. An undock module. We've already had the docking module since day 1, which has been improved over time. I'm sure you remember how unreliable the original docking module was for years. You think the botters used that? Hmm... i'm not certain. I think they wrote their own docking routines long ago, and once you have that, you have the undock routine as well.

Then there is the supercruise speed regulator, again, something the botters would likely have nailed down years ago.

You're worrying about someone writing new bots using the new modules, when the old bots probably are doing just fine and possibly even better than using the new modules. As a "bonus" the botters can now use those extra slots for more cargo racks!

 

[Taimaru]

If you'll actually read OPs earlier post, you'll see that early models of the bots couldn't distinguish between logging into open and solo. They simply task killed whenever in danger. Later after they began to be reported the bot creators updated the script to detect which mode it was in.

I find it very hard to believe that a bot capable of auto un-docking wasn't capable of pressing the down arrow a couple of times before selecting Solo when starting the game.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

A bot would run 24/7 whilst humans can't...
Some sort of enforced timer?

 

[Goose4291]

OP - the bots already exist, they don't need these new modules.

All this panic over the new modules is just a waste of energy.

It isn't though is it?

Because the more of the ingame mechanics I can use to support my 'bot' programme, the harder its going to be to detect in the future.

 

[Retropolitan]

On the bright side, though: if the new undocking computer launches you from an outpost the same way that NPCs do these days, you'll find that 20% of all bots spend their days stuck to the side of an outpost somewhere.