Feeling Dirty - Soiled my game experience - Guardian site reset grind

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@Fizzatron
The ship selling thing goes against the universe as you are just a pilot who is supposed to find their own way
I'd be surprised if they let that happen, not to mention other concerns..
Fleet Carriers have expanded on that role quite a bit already; you can sell ships, outfittings, commodities, along with Odyssey mats already. It's just that ships and outfitting has to be bought in bundled packs.

I'm not sure what percentage of carrier owners are stocking outfittings and ships - I'll be honest, I took one look at it and decided it wasn't going to work for me, but I think it would get quite a boost from being able to buy and sell in a similar way we can commodities, especially pre-engineered ships/modules. I think it could serve as a good way to mitigate the complaints about Engineering from those who are averse to doing it as a consequence also. I certainly would have more of an open mind to stocking ships and outfittings if I could do it that way for sure.
 
But they will go to other CMDRs, so a service is being provided to the community.

Undermining bad content with even worse content isn't what I'd consider a service.

Allowing these things to be traded without closing the loopholes in their acquisition was a mistake, IMO.

What experience? A bit more damage if you successfully hit? Most likely not going to reduce the number of shots (IF you hit the head) to take down an opponent.

It's a sizable advantage (or rather the possibility of achieving parity) against the only opponents that are dangerous enough to matter.

I think it could serve as a good way to mitigate the complaints about Engineering from those who are averse to doing it as a consequence also.

I think this would be another case of a cure being worse than the disease. The surest way for the fundamental problems of a system to never be addressed is layering those problems to superficially mask each other.

The material requirements for Engineering exist as a crappy workaround for a never released credit economy. Allowing them to by bypassed with credits would just bring us full circle and not fix much of anything.
 
I think this would be another case of a cure being worse than the disease. The surest way for the fundamental problems of a system to never be addressed is layering those problems to superficially mask each other.
I see what you are saying, but a step in the right direction would be beneficial. And while I won't deny the possibility exists, to suggest that it would "surely" lead to engineering never being addressed further is basing your argument on a logical fallacy.

The material requirements for Engineering exist as a crappy workaround for a never released credit economy. Allowing them to by bypassed with credits would just bring us full circle and not fix much of anything.

I don't recall that credit economy ever being announced or touted as a future feature, can you point me to where I can read up on what it was supposed to entail please? I'm keen to see it as I have my own thoughts on this.
 
I see what you are saying, but a step in the right direction would be beneficial. And while I won't deny the possibility exists, to suggest that it would "surely" lead to engineering never being addressed further is basing your argument on a logical fallacy.

Surest (relatively most certain) and surely (absolutely certain) aren't the same word and don't have the same meaning here.

I also do not feel there can be any steps in the right direction without certain prerequisites being met. As far as I am concerned, anything that makes ill-gotten gains more transferable, or allows a functionally unconstrained resource to be used to acquire what currently has some modicum of value, are steps backwards...and I say this as someone who believes that there should be a wholly fungible medium of exchange and player-character asset transfers in any credible economic simulation. However, the game is not ready for that; what little purpose the faux economy and it's silly constraints serve is lost, to the overall detriment of the game, if those constraints are bypassed without fixing the supply situation that allows materials to be harvested by relogging or other exploits and allows credits to be conjured ad infinitum from nothing. Skipping these prerequisites is like mandating only electric vehicles be license to drive on public roads (something I'd find highly desirable, in ideal circumstances) when there is no infrastructure to charge them and the battery tech isn't there yet (which makes such a requirement a practical impossibility).

I don't recall that credit economy ever being announced or touted as a future feature, can you point me to where I can read up on what it was supposed to entail please? I'm keen to see it as I have my own thoughts on this.

The game's economy was a past feature, that was scaled back and simplified before I started playing, and never made it to release.

Other forum members, such as Darkfyre99, have commented on the alpha economy before:
To expand upon what @Jmanis wrote above, here's how the economic sim worked in Alpha 4, before Frontier took a chainsaw to it to satisfy those who wanted a guaranteed trade profit of 1000 credits/ton.

1) First, markets in ED are per station (or planetary port or settlement) only. The prices in one station won't affect the prices in any other station of the system, let alone with neighboring systems or human space as a whole. As Jmanis said, the "galactic average" price is simply a global variable to determine what local prices are.

2) The "supply" and "demand" values of commodities in any particular market is determined by a variety of factors, such as economy type and the size of population served by the market. This apparently isn't the size of the system's population, unless its the only market in the system. These are the "maximum" values, which the market started at when the game began. The buy and sell prices in the market are determined relative to "supply" and "demand" a per ton basis. This is the source of the so-called "bulk tax." It isn't a "tax", but reflects the difference in price between the first ton you sold, and the last one.

4) Each commodity sold by a market has a "baseline production" value, which basically represents baseline NPC trading. Every fifteen minutes, aka the market tick, the market adds this "baseline production" to its level of supplies, and also adds the commodity's "ingredients" from demand. This repeats until "supply" and "demand" reaches their maximum values.

5) Each commodity sold by a market also has a "maximum production" value, relative to its "baseline production" value. Between market ticks, the market would produce as much of the commodity as it could, up to "maximum production," assuming that it had "ingredients" to do so. For example: tea in an agricultural market would be produced if it had stocks of crop harvesters, pesticides, and biowaste available.

6) A market also "consumed" certain commodities, such as food, consumer goods, coffee, tea, and luxuries, at a fixed rate, based on its population and wealth.

7) A market will always buy a commodity, even if there's no demand for it.

Alpha 4, when the economic sim was introduced, only had five stations, which covered the five basic economy types in one form or another: high tech, industrial, refinery, agricultural (land and sea IIRC), and extraction. With only a handful of stations to trade from, a high number of eager alpha-testers, many of whom rushing to get the biggest ships, the inevitable happened: between dwindling supplies of high-value goods, and dwindling demand for the same, the most profitable trade goods soon bottomed out. Where players were filling their increasingly large ships with 1200-1500 credit/ton luxuries, those same luxuries were selling for several hundred. Given that at the time there were operational costs for ships, which were proportional to their size, trading those luxuries in large ships were often at a loss.

Certain commodities, such as gold from Freeport, tea from Azaban City, or performance enhancers from Beagle 2 Landing, returned to a more profitable 400-500 credits/ton, thanks to demand in the other stations far exceeding the limited baseline production. Which led to quite players camping those stations, "F5-ing" the commodity screen on the market tick to fill up their cargo holds. This process took several hours, and was likely macroed so the tester could watch TV or sleep. After all, if you were going to spend all that time traveling in Supercruise in the blue zone, which was the "forum recommended" (
🤦‍♀️
) technique at the time, before they discovered the seven second rule, you should have a full cargo hold to make a profit!

This situation was intolerable for many of those big ship testers. Who, incidentally, were far more plentiful than they should've been thanks to one alpha-tester discovering a literal gold duplication bug, who graciously showered whole Type-9 loads of gold canisters upon anyone who wanted it at the back of Azaban city.

Now, it was possible for a commander to make a constant profit, at a rate of over 300,000 credits/hour in a Cobra Mk III, if you could:
  • Play during off-peak hours
  • Diversify your outgoing cargo load
  • Travel to a less "popular" station
  • Bring the "low value" ingredients back
  • Complete the entire cargo run before the market ticks again
Which is what was yours truly was doing during that time. Before Frontier "increased" Supercruise speeds to pacify the complaints of those who chose to slowly travel from star to station, I was usually able to make a round trip between market ticks, thanks to being able to use mass shadow braking at my destination. I'd snatch up the "excess" production, wait a bit to snap up my "allotment" (since multiple commanders could grab the same commodity) on the tick, fill whatever space was left over with animal meat, and then fly to Dahan Gateway to sell my tea and coffee for profits, and bring the "worthless" biowaste back with me, along with a dozen crop harvesters. I would then repeat this process for the Eranin <-> Beagle 2 Landing, only this time I'd bring "worthless" pesticides, along with a dozen advanced medicines.

If there seemed to be another player using a similar strategy when I was playing, I also had Dahan Gateway <-> Beagle 2 Landing as an alternative trade route. Slightly less profitable overall, but it had the advantage that each trip was much more consistent, thanks to Dahan being able to fully supply the "ingredients" of what I wanted Beagle 2 Landing to produce. I also had an Eranin -> Dahan Gateway -> Beagle 2 Landing -> Eranin trade route I could use if it seemed that there was low player activity the night I played.

It was this need to make my cargo runs in under 15 minutes that was the origin of me "Buckyballing" it everywhere. I wasn't about to "play it slow and safe" when there were profits to be made... not to mention how much fun it was to "thread the needle." Or dodging around player Type-9s at dangerously high speeds.

And then Premium Beta One hit, with its "improvements" to supercruise (which actually took longer for me to get most destinations, thanks to how much longer it took to brake at my destination) and its "improvements" to the economic sim, when baseline production levels were adjusted upwards so much, that most of the time most markets are functionally the same as those from Frontier: Elite 2! Overnight, I went from having to pay attention to the dozen or so commodities I was trading, at three different stations, and adjusting my strategy accordingly in response to what I saw, to being guaranteed a larger profit by trading only one commodity from each of the three, in a circular three-hop route.

[sarcasm]Yay! Progress![/sarcasm]

I believe that this system, at least for commodities that existed in Alpha Four, is still there. There's been a couple of CGs where I feel like I was able to "boost" production at an allegedly "depleted" nearby station enough to always fill my Python's hold by returning with the "ingredients" I knew. But I only know a few "recipies," and the situation is so rare it might as well not exist.

Once again, I can’t help but point out Elite Dangerous once had what you describe, and there were enough vocal complaints about it during the original alpha, that Frontier pretty much scrapped their entire economic simulation in favor of what we have today.

Frontier Developments: replacing Depth of Gameplay with shallow grind at the request of the player base since 2014…

Personally, it didn't take me long to realize the game I had didn't have much of any economic simulation (it was around mid-2015 that Frontier was no longer willing or able to control the faux economy sufficiently to fool anyone who looked at it for more than five minutes) and this has been a major challenge to my ability to suspend disbelief in a game where trade is supposed to be a defining feature.

The Alpha 4 economy seems like it would have been an acceptable baseline, the bare minimum from which things could expand and be fleshed out further, instead it was cut back to allow everyone to acrue credits, virtually no matter how absurd the scenario, and that superficial economic system has only gotten worse over the last eight years.
 
Any way to dump the guardian materials I got?
Keep them. You may very well need them later. (there is quite a lot of equipment to be had)

I am in the process of farming pattern epsilon and technology compenents and it is not fast i can tell you that much.
-currently at 40/100 after fives days of playing on and off. I don't do relogging or super cruise but move sites instead.
(this tool is near indispensable for it: https://map.canonn.tech/gr-data.html )

That being said i have also found an un-tagged/un-marked guardian system and what appears to be a guardian world system.
(the latter has all the ingredients to be a main system from when they were around, namely braintrees only seeded on the first five moons and one moon orbiting an atmo planet)



Case in point i need to know where to hand in my exploration data in order to have the former guardian vehicle blueprint site tagged on the galaxymap. :D
 
Keep them. You may very well need them later. (there is quite a lot of equipment to be had)

Bit of a necro

also

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and their last post was

Thanks all for the replies. After reading them and some reflection, I've decided to live with my decision.

There were some really good points all around;
  • I made this decision to do it this way, so I'm going to live with it
  • instancing was the design, not designed entirely for the experience alone
  • guardian tech doesn't fill the role to gear for every situation, mostly for AX
  • feeling bad about it was punishment enough
I appreciate all the contributors. Thanks ED community for being here when I needed you.

07
 
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