Fer de lance and expected python nerf

[Belsameth]

I can't help but think that that is the problem; you shouldn't be considering taking on a large combat ship in a viper by yourself because you'd have an expectation of massive retaliation and certain death. The balance for a Python should not be against a small fighter.

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But that's the effective outcome. It is the only larger ship that currently stands much chance against even a lone smaller fighter, manoeuvrability is the deciding factor in combat. If you can't bring your weapons to bear then you cannot win the fight.

Yes and no. Yes, if it gets its weapons on me, I should hurt. A lot. This is currently the case.
What a ship that size, however, should not be able to do is manouver (almost) as well as I do. Currently, that *is* the case. The flies like it mistakes itself for an Eagle.
Also note that I'm talking about rats, which are notoriously bad

Take the, even more, expensive 'Conda. It hits like a sack of bricks but it also turns like one. On top of that it has this huge, juicy, lovely, powerplant that it so lovingly exposes to all forms of small arms fire. I've managed to find no such weakness in the Python.

Do note tho that I'm not trying to claim that I should breeze through Pythons like I do with Adders and I should have a hard time fighting it, even when NPC controlled. Its power and relative lack of weaknessess do shine through tho, when fighting them. I also don't think, as pointed out above me, that it'll get a nerf big enough to render it inoperable. All that the devs have said is "A slight adjustment in manuverability" which has been blown *way* out of proportion.

 

[Forrseti]

Stop whining about things getting nerfed, unless of course you want everyone, within a few months, to be flying a python. If you have or plan to get the Python, then keep it. I doubt the change will effect things as much as you're worrying.

 

[Unfluffydave]

But it isn't a type 42 frigate, we're in an environment with no drag.

Drag no, mass and inertia yes.

 

[cherny_prapor]

But it isn't a type 42 frigate, we're in an environment with no drag.

Sure, no drag, but the ships still have mass, and acceleration is also present. If, theoretically, you built a drive that would have the power to instantly turn a massive spaceship 180 degrees, the ship would break in half during the maneuver, not to mention the pilot being turned into paste with the G-force. Massive spaceships still can't turn like sport cars, even with zero drag and gravity.
A simple experiment: if your head is hit with a hammer and with a cotton swab in space, would they hurt equally just because of zero gravity? The weight is zero for both those "weapons", sure, but the mass is still there.

Amen to that

Amen to that guy missing the entire point and turning things upside down. Nobody's suggesting to equalize all ships and equipment in the game, people just don't want overpowered stuff. If we take the poor old Python again, I don't have any objections to buffing its firepower and shields (recharge, thickness, everything), but DON'T MAKE A COUGAR OUT OF A COW!!! If it's massive, it should behave and feel like it's massive, not like a motorcycle with the size of a cargo truck.

 

[Alpha November]

Yes and no. Yes, if it gets its weapons on me, I should hurt. A lot. This is currently the case.
What a ship that size, however, should not be able to do is manouver (almost) as well as I do. Currently, that *is* the case. The flies like it mistakes itself for an Eagle.
Also note that I'm talking about rats, which are notoriously bad

Take the, even more, expensive 'Conda. It hits like a sack of bricks but it also turns like one. On top of that it has this huge, juicy, lovely, powerplant that it so lovingly exposes to all forms of small arms fire. I've managed to find no such weakness in the Python.

Do note tho that I'm not trying to claim that I should breeze through Pythons like I do with Adders and I should have a hard time fighting it, even when NPC controlled. Its power and relative lack of weaknessess do shine through tho, when fighting them. I also don't think, as pointed out above me, that it'll get a nerf big enough to render it inoperable. All that the devs have said is "A slight adjustment in manuverability" which has been blown *way* out of proportion.

Turning in space is a factor of applied thrust. There's no reason why a large object shouldn't turn quickly (though crew factors like acceleration forces must be taken into account but that applies to all ships without magic inertial dampening systems). Big ships 'can' have larger thrust ratios than small ships and can therefore be both faster and more manoeuvrable. Even a small change to the Python will, I think, render it useless as a combat ship (I'm talking against players here, not NPCs unless NPCs are improved).

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Drag no, mass and inertia yes.

See my point above

 

[Lanatir]

So basically what it should have actually been from the start then. A ship of that size and firepower simply should not have the agility of a far smaller ship with less firepower.

A ship of that size should have a WORKING turret that stops shooting the wrong targets and blast little mosquitos like the viper out of the sky without even looking. Then the maneuverability wouldnt be an issue.

 

[WO-One]

Hey. Im currantly trading in my type7.
My concers are however:
1. Do we expect python to be hevily nerfed?
2. What if fer the lance comes out and is favorible vs the python.

What do you think?

My Crystal Ball has a flat battery I'm afraid.

 

[bAdbUd]

It can, lets nerf side'y
[video=youtube_share;r7m48kSvCxE]http://youtu.be/r7m48kSvCxE[/video]

This is just wrong a Sidewinder should never be able to take out an Anaconda regardless of the skill of a player V's NPC. The AI on that ship is obviously very dumb it just can't cope with the tracking of it's tail.

 

[cherny_prapor]

Turning in space is a factor of applied thrust. There's no reason why a large object shouldn't turn quickly (though crew factors like acceleration forces must be taken into account but that applies to all ships without magic inertial dampening systems). Big ships 'can' have larger thrust ratios than small ships and can therefore be both faster and more manoeuvrable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_of_materials

It would be torn to pieces with G-force because of the mass, unless the hull and carcass are made of Mythril

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

A cmdr really shouldn't let another cmdr get so close to him and nothing should stop a continious volley at 30m, ever, IMHO.

Kind of hard to do in considerably slower and less maneuverable ship unless instantly opening fire on anything in range.

If anything, bigger ships should be made stronger. Screw balance - imho a single viper's firepower shouldn't even be able to overcome a pythons passive shield recharge. It should require a wing of Vipers.

 

[Innocence]

It can, lets nerf side'y
[video=youtube_share;r7m48kSvCxE]http://youtu.be/r7m48kSvCxE[/video]

Hmm, at 14:01 you can see the Anaconda has 51% Hull left, then it explodes the second after. That doesn't seem right does it?

 

[Werppa]

I don't get this "nerf" mentality. The Python is a 57Mcr ship, WITHOUT upgrades, and topping 130MCr when A-modded.

For 130MCr, I'd expect my ship to be pretty darn good.

There is no need to "balance" everything "in relation to the sidewinder", because the sidewinder (or any other ship for that matter) doesn't cost 130MCr when A-modded. Some cost more, some cost less, and therefore do not need to be balanced to the Python.

So I for one will be very surprised and disappointed if the Python is nerfed.

Who knows on the Fer de lance? Until it comes out, no one.

By that logic it would be acceptable to have a ship that could annihilate everything with one shot no matter what while having 50Ly jump range and 900 cargo space if you only paid loads of credits for it. Right? That being said, I wouldn't nerf the Python. It's excellent, sure, but not game breakingly so.

 

[Alpha November]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_of_materials

It would be torn to pieces with G-force because of the mass, unless the hull and carcass are made of Mythril

Yes; I'm not sure discussing material strengths in 2015 will get us far in assessing whatever magical stuff they have in 3300. We'll just have to assume that material strength has progressed.

 

[MrReynolds]

You pay your money you get your toys.........

I paid a fortune for the Python and it SHOULD be good.
It SHOULD be far better than a single Cobra.
Working turrets would be the only way to negate a turning nerf, and even then if they get spoofed by chaff easily it'll be a loss to it's stats.

Really only posted just in case someone with actual influence is tallying up the comments......................

 

[Werppa]

Hmm, at 14:01 you can see the Anaconda has 51% Hull left, then it explodes the second after. That doesn't seem right does it?

Yeah I don't know if it's a bug or what but NPC Anacondas tend to blow up at 60ish hull integrity.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Kind of hard to do in considerably slower and less maneuverable ship unless instantly opening fire on anything in range.

If anything, bigger ships should be made stronger. Screw balance - imho a single viper's firepower shouldn't even be able to overcome a pythons passive shield recharge. It should require a wing of Vipers.

I believe the viper should have a chance, but it should be a long job of out-manuvering and whittling down the shields whilst under fire, not get in close and drop massive salvo of highest alpha you can fit and kill in a minute.(that's PVP i'm concerned with). Now I think about it, not really concerned with the python losing a little turning, it insta-gibbing weapons I think upset the whole balance, but that's for a different thread.

 

[Maxwellou]

Sooooo, basically we won't be able to have a medium/large ship without the absolute obligation to mount turrets on it ?
So what's the point of Gimballed and fixed weapons then ?
And do not forget about chaffs. You know, like that guy who has like 60-90 chaffs on him.

Oh and also, if we're talking about nerfing... Nerf the hell out of the Cobra.
Why the multi-purpose Cobra as the same maneuvrability and EXACTLY the same hardpoints as the "CLEARLY ALL POWER IN COMBAT-FIGHTING-DOGFIGHTING FRIKKIN' " Viper ??
Buff the viper a little or nerf the Cobra then.
See ? I can also invocate the nerfbat.

That being said, I'm not against a "slightly tweak" about the maneuvrability of the Python. IF IT REMAINS "SLIGHT" to a point that we can fight a lone wolf viper/cobra/eagle without having to rely on turrets because the CMDR is much more agile than the python and therefore stays inevitably in our blind spot. Oh, and don't forget chaffs.
I do not want to have a python with 2, 3 or 4 points in maneuvrability. Because if that's the case, no one in their right minds would buy an Anaconda or a Python: far too expensive to buy and maintain for absolutely no rewards.

I also think that no ships should be modified until the wings update. That my friend is going to change a lot of things !

 

[SpyTec]

Hmm, at 14:01 you can see the Anaconda has 51% Hull left, then it explodes the second after. That doesn't seem right does it?

You can destroy a ship by destroying it's Power Supply, that's what you should aim for when fighting big ships

 

[cherny_prapor]

Yeah I don't know if it's a bug or what but NPC Anacondas tend to blow up at 60ish hull integrity.

Take out a ship's FSD or Power Plant, and it goes boom. The 'conda usually has ~50% hull when the FSD/Plant HP reaches zero.

Regarding the "3300 materials vs 2015" - unless the periodic table magically changes by then, I don't see how it could be possible to make something that strong.

 

[m4th3m4t1c14n]

Yeah I don't know if it's a bug or what but NPC Anacondas tend to blow up at 60ish hull integrity.

Not a bug. The sidewinder is targeting the anaconda's power plant. If that or the FSD reaches zero, the anaconda is toast regardless the remaining hull.