Finally, sensible suggestions on Crime and Punishment!

Or are they? You tell me...
It's been DAYS since the last C&P thread so I thought it's time for another one.

On the menu:
  • safely relaxing the current hard cap of 2,000,000cr that makes player bounty hunting laughably badly paid
  • minor reward for players who are able to scan/escape from a criminal who attacks them

The focus is on limiting loophole exploits that would allow CMDRs to make or recover money from their own bounties (particularly by exploiting the shared kill bounty multiplier), and enhancing C&P gameplay options for CMDRs, as a way of improving C&P efficacy.


Concept 1 - a safe way to relax bounty caps:

- Relax the default cap from 2,000,000cr to 100,000,000cr.

- Having notoriety yourself at the time of or following the bounty kill voids your bounty claim.

- Having a criminal bounty yourself on the ship obtaining the kill reduces the reward by more than the size of your bounty.

- Reduce the cap by a factor that depends on the hunter's history of notoriety, e.g. their maximum in the last month, or their average over a long period.

- Restrict the size of bounty claims by CMDRs who fall below a certain level of regular activity, to mitigate exploitation using dormant clean alt accounts (sorry part-timers).

- To mitigate repeated exploitation using clean alt accounts or those of friends, tighten the cap by a factor that gets harsher the more regularly and more recently hunter and bounty have instanced together in normal space. It should be configured to make it theoretically impossible to recover more than, say, a billion cr in a year by alt-killing yourself (and likely much less). A true hunter may be forced to vary their targets, mind you.

- Bounty is hard capped at the usual 2mil if you have winged or been friended with the bountied CMDR in the last month(s).

- Having been in the same squadron as the bounty within 1 month of the kill voids the bounty claim.

- Having had the same powerplay pledge as the bounty within 1 month of the kill halves the bounty claim.

The latter points mitigate kill-swapping between CMDRs in the same player network or using clean alts obtained for other purposes.

EDIT after JManis' comment - require a minimum age of the account that accrues the bounty before relaxing the cap, so as to oppose use of throwaway criminal alts.

EDIT 2 after Vandaahl's comment - impacts of large bounties on BGS might be an issue requiring e.g. a rapid diminution of BGS INF returns on large individual bounties (leaving smaller NPC bounties' effects the same).

Concept 2 - reward players who "reconnoitre" criminals:

- A player attacked who survives to leave the instance without killing the attacker gets an "attacker intel package" that they can hand in to the authorities for a minor reward: some fraction of one percent of the bounty of the attacker. E.g. 0.1% gives pennies for NPC attacks, but 1,000,000cr for a 1bn bounty player attacker.

- The award increases (e.g. doubles) if the CMDR gets a ship scan of the attacker.

- The award increases again if the CMDR loses shields (or has none) and takes more than X% hull damage from the attacker.

- The attacked player has to have had notoriety no greater than 1 within the last month.

- Apply a reduction factor similar to that for tightening the bounty cap in concept 1, but based on recent attacks, rather than recent instancing (can't milk the same guy forever - there's no new intel). Similar conditions also around wing/friend/squad/pledge should apply.

This gives an attacked player something to play for and incentivises escape and robust ship builds. It could even be a decent risk/reward ratio activity for a player in a low-rebuy ship, i.e. a new strand of gameplay.


Players destroyed by a notorious CMDR already get discounted rebuy - this could be made more prominent, I only found it out by reading up.


EDIT 2: only apply these measures to notoriety/bounties accrued in systems above a certain murder rate, in order to minimise effects on BGS wars. Alternatively only have them apply in such systems.
 
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Or are they? You tell me...
It's been DAYS since the last C&P thread so I thought it's time for another one.

On the menu:
  • safely relaxing the current hard cap of 2,000,000cr that makes player bounty hunting laughably badly paid
  • minor reward for players who are able to scan/escape from a criminal who attacks them

The focus is on limiting loophole exploits that would allow CMDRs to make or recover money from their own bounties (particularly by exploiting the shared kill bounty multiplier), and enhancing C&P gameplay options for CMDRs, as a way of improving C&P efficacy.


Concept 1 - a safe way to relax bounty caps:

- Relax the default cap from 2,000,000cr to 100,000,000cr.

- Having notoriety yourself at the time of or following the bounty kill voids your bounty claim.

- Having a criminal bounty yourself on the ship obtaining the kill reduces the reward by more than the size of your bounty.

- Reduce the cap by a factor that depends on the hunter's history of notoriety, e.g. their maximum in the last month, or their average over a long period.

- Restrict the size of bounty claims by CMDRs who fall below a certain level of regular activity, to mitigate exploitation using dormant clean alt accounts (sorry part-timers).

- To mitigate repeated exploitation using clean alt accounts or those of friends, tighten the cap by a factor that gets harsher the more regularly and more recently hunter and bounty have instanced together in normal space. It should be configured to make it theoretically impossible to recover more than, say, a billion cr in a year by alt-killing yourself (and likely much less). A true hunter may be forced to vary their targets, mind you.

- Bounty is hard capped at the usual 2mil if you have winged or been friended with the bountied CMDR in the last month(s).
Having been in the same squadron as the bounty within 1 month of the kill voids the bounty claim.

- Having had the same powerplay pledge as the bounty within 1 month of the kill halves the bounty claim.

The latter points mitigate kill-swapping between CMDRs in the same player network or using clean alts obtained for other purposes.


Concept 2 - reward players who "reconnoitre" criminals:

- A player attacked who survives to leave the instance without killing the attacker gets an "attacker intel package" that they can hand in to the authorities for a minor reward: some fraction of one percent of the bounty of the attacker. E.g. 0.1% gives pennies for NPC attacks, but 1,000,000cr for a 1bn bounty player attacker.

- The award increases (e.g. doubles) if the CMDR gets a ship scan of the attacker.

- The award increases again if the CMDR loses shields (or has none) and takes more than X% hull damage from the attacker.

- The attacked player has to have had notoriety no greater than 1 within the last month.

- Apply a reduction factor similar to that for tightening the bounty cap in concept 1, but based on recent attacks, rather than recent instancing (can't milk the same guy forever - there's no new intel). Similar conditions also around wing/friend/squad/pledge should apply.

This gives an attacked player something to play for and incentivises escape and robust ship builds. It could even be a decent risk/reward ratio activity for a player in a low-rebuy ship, i.e. a new strand of gameplay.


Players destroyed by a notorious CMDR already get discounted rebuy - this could be made more prominent, I only found it out by reading up.
Rest assured I'd easily exploit the bejeesus out of concept 1.
 
Or are they? You tell me...
It's been DAYS since the last C&P thread so I thought it's time for another one.

On the menu:
Kudos for light hearted approach (y)

Players destroyed by a notorious CMDR already get discounted rebuy - this could be made more prominent, I only found it out by reading up.
Nobody notices, because most of the time the whole rebuy is not hurting anybody anymore and especially the discount is just pocket change.
 
Kudos for light hearted approach (y)


Nobody notices, because most of the time the whole rebuy is not hurting anybody anymore and especially the discount is just pocket change.


Compensation could be increased without exploitation? I hate the sense I have that people flee to closed modes based on a bad early experience. Recognition of the "bad experience" might be more useful than reward? Psychologically.
 
Rest assured I'd easily exploit the bejeesus out of concept 1.

Excellent! Just the kind of expert knowledge needed to propose a less leaky system :D. Or is it simply impossible in your view?

Bear in mind there will always be exploits, but can be weighed to some extent against game experience improvements.
 
My solution would be to buff the kill warrant scanner. Make it operate like the discovery scanner when in supercruise, any players with bounties on them now have their position marked - with bounty details including the ship they are flying on the Nav panel.


You can run, but you can't hide
 
Compensation could be increased without exploitation? I hate the sense I have that people flee to closed modes based on a bad early experience. Recognition of the "bad experience" might be more useful than reward? Psychologically.
1. Spin up a new commander on an alt account
2. Get them into, say, an A-rate eagle. Nothing swish
3. Rack up 100m in fines by abandoning a few wing deliveries for a faction (average fine for these is 20-80m) then convert that to a bounty by shooting up some harmless hauler.
4. Go blat some harmless haulers in low security to get your notoriety up.
5. Log your main account, blat the eagle, cash in 100m
6. Blat the alt commander, start a new one.

The issue remains that cashable bounties are sourced from NPCs with infinitely deep pockets. No amount of rules will ever accomodate that.
 
Surely the sheer amount of threads calling for a C&P update is more than enough evidence for FDEV to act... maybe Odyssey will fix it, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
1. Spin up a new commander on an alt account
2. Get them into, say, an A-rate eagle. Nothing swish
3. Rack up 100m in fines by abandoning a few wing deliveries for a faction (average fine for these is 20-80m) then convert that to a bounty by shooting up some harmless hauler.
4. Go blat some harmless haulers in low security to get your notoriety up.
5. Log your main account, blat the eagle, cash in 100m
6. Blat the alt commander, start a new one.

The issue remains that cashable bounties are sourced from NPCs with infinitely deep pockets. No amount of rules will ever accomodate that.

How often can you blat alts? Assuming as often as you like, just put in a constraint as to how old the account has to be before players can claim a bounty on it, and you limit this exploit.

Also, what fraction of murderous players would actually do this? I have no sense of what the answer is. But given money is so straightforward to come by if you really want it, would you bother? Would it take the same amount of time to mine 100mil?
 
Surely the sheer amount of threads calling for a C&P update is more than enough evidence for FDEV to act... maybe Odyssey will fix it, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I kind of have a sense that Odyssey is done. So either it already will or it won't. Game doesn't stop developing there though.
 
The focus is on limiting loophole exploits that would allow CMDRs to make or recover money from their own bounties (particularly by exploiting the shared kill bounty multiplier), and enhancing C&P gameplay options for CMDRs, as a way of improving C&P efficacy.

As you point out there are many such loopholes, way too many to even reasonably expect everything to get plugged.

Another approach would be to allow players to cash in their bounty themselves using game mechanics.

Maybe something like the rogue system in the division - after you get to a certain level of notoriety you (alone and as a group) can cash it in and get a reward for it, but in a way that tells everyone where you are and leaves you vulnerable to attack for a certain amount of time during which other players can try to kill you or otherwise mess with you to steal the reward/test their might/get revenge/make you sad.

This shouldn't allow for unlimited bounties because loopholes will still exist but the amount you can cash out at once could increase if you manage to keep a streak of doing this and not die.

There are systems already in the game that could be somewhat adapted for this - it could just be a combat zone where progress is gained by scanning a beacon every few minutes (which sends out some kind of server wide "hey come kill this guy" message to everyone interested/in a certain radius of the system this takes place in) with the initiating player(s) on one team and everyone who shows up late defaulting to the other team.

The rewards for pvp should also include high grade engineering mats and not just money.
 
Surely the sheer amount of threads calling for a C&P update is more than enough evidence for FDEV to act... maybe Odyssey will fix it, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I think it's more like, "every time we change it we get the heck blasted out of us by players that don't like the new systems, so we may as well just leave it as it is and accept that some people don't like it!"
 
As you point out there are many such loopholes, way too many to even reasonably expect everything to get plugged.

Another approach would be to allow players to cash in their bounty themselves using game mechanics.

Maybe something like the rogue system in the division - after you get to a certain level of notoriety you (alone and as a group) can cash it in and get a reward for it, but in a way that tells everyone where you are and leaves you vulnerable to attack for a certain amount of time during which other players can try to kill you or otherwise mess with you to steal the reward/test their might/get revenge/make you sad.

This shouldn't allow for unlimited bounties because loopholes will still exist but the amount you can cash out at once could increase if you manage to keep a streak of doing this and not die.

There are systems already in the game that could be somewhat adapted for this - it could just be a combat zone where progress is gained by scanning a beacon every few minutes (which sends out some kind of server wide "hey come kill this guy" message to everyone interested/in a certain radius of the system this takes place in) with the initiating player(s) on one team and everyone who shows up late defaulting to the other team.

The rewards for pvp should also include high grade engineering mats and not just money.

Well I'm not as pessimistic as you about fixing the loopholes :), but there needs to be careful logic design. Also, an exploit only has to be less lucrative per hour than other activities, e.g. mining, in order to make it defunct, arguably - if someone then really prefers to go through some tedious loophole repetition to make cash then they've been punished enough XD.
Changes to move towards "conservation of credits", such as nerfing bounty multiplication through kill sharing can close loopholes too.

I was thinking about your suggestion and wondering if it was suitably "Elite-ish", but it might be. E.g. it could be a reward from Archon Delaine or similarly dark figure - you have to spend X of game time in a CZ in a particular system in open mode before said dark figure will release it, and anyone else can come and challenge you for it. You might even end up with big wing fights of crims vs. challengers.

I can imagine it might just come with its own set of loopholes, of course. As long as it can be designed so that it only involves a net loss of existing CMDR credits, then it could work. But it still seems easier to just die in a sidewinder and then sell the dirty ship (another loophole overdue the obvious and easy fix).
 
Or are they? You tell me...
It's been DAYS since the last C&P thread so I thought it's time for another one.

On the menu:
  • safely relaxing the current hard cap of 2,000,000cr that makes player bounty hunting laughably badly paid
  • minor reward for players who are able to scan/escape from a criminal who attacks them

The focus is on limiting loophole exploits that would allow CMDRs to make or recover money from their own bounties (particularly by exploiting the shared kill bounty multiplier), and enhancing C&P gameplay options for CMDRs, as a way of improving C&P efficacy.


Concept 1 - a safe way to relax bounty caps:

- Relax the default cap from 2,000,000cr to 100,000,000cr.

- Having notoriety yourself at the time of or following the bounty kill voids your bounty claim.

- Having a criminal bounty yourself on the ship obtaining the kill reduces the reward by more than the size of your bounty.

- Reduce the cap by a factor that depends on the hunter's history of notoriety, e.g. their maximum in the last month, or their average over a long period.

- Restrict the size of bounty claims by CMDRs who fall below a certain level of regular activity, to mitigate exploitation using dormant clean alt accounts (sorry part-timers).

- To mitigate repeated exploitation using clean alt accounts or those of friends, tighten the cap by a factor that gets harsher the more regularly and more recently hunter and bounty have instanced together in normal space. It should be configured to make it theoretically impossible to recover more than, say, a billion cr in a year by alt-killing yourself (and likely much less). A true hunter may be forced to vary their targets, mind you.

- Bounty is hard capped at the usual 2mil if you have winged or been friended with the bountied CMDR in the last month(s).

- Having been in the same squadron as the bounty within 1 month of the kill voids the bounty claim.

- Having had the same powerplay pledge as the bounty within 1 month of the kill halves the bounty claim.

The latter points mitigate kill-swapping between CMDRs in the same player network or using clean alts obtained for other purposes.

EDIT after JManis' comment - require a minimum age of the account that accrues the bounty before relaxing the cap, so as to oppose use of throwaway criminal alts.


Concept 2 - reward players who "reconnoitre" criminals:

- A player attacked who survives to leave the instance without killing the attacker gets an "attacker intel package" that they can hand in to the authorities for a minor reward: some fraction of one percent of the bounty of the attacker. E.g. 0.1% gives pennies for NPC attacks, but 1,000,000cr for a 1bn bounty player attacker.

- The award increases (e.g. doubles) if the CMDR gets a ship scan of the attacker.

- The award increases again if the CMDR loses shields (or has none) and takes more than X% hull damage from the attacker.

- The attacked player has to have had notoriety no greater than 1 within the last month.

- Apply a reduction factor similar to that for tightening the bounty cap in concept 1, but based on recent attacks, rather than recent instancing (can't milk the same guy forever - there's no new intel). Similar conditions also around wing/friend/squad/pledge should apply.

This gives an attacked player something to play for and incentivises escape and robust ship builds. It could even be a decent risk/reward ratio activity for a player in a low-rebuy ship, i.e. a new strand of gameplay.


Players destroyed by a notorious CMDR already get discounted rebuy - this could be made more prominent, I only found it out by reading up.


EDIT 2: only apply these measures to notoriety/bounties accrued in systems above a certain murder rate, in order to minimise effects on BGS wars. Alternatively only have them apply in such systems.


The reason it's capped at 2mill is so that people can't farm money.

Hell if it was at 100mill imagine being a new cmdr and your friend just let's you kill them to claim that 100 mill straight of the bat. It would be worse than mining
 
The reason it's capped at 2mill is so that people can't farm money.

Hell if it was at 100mill imagine being a new cmdr and your friend just let's you kill them to claim that 100 mill straight of the bat. It would be worse than mining
Or just use a carrier and transfer credits via cargo in a much more efficient way. That horse has already bolted.
 
Or just use a carrier and transfer credits via cargo in a much more efficient way. That horse has already bolted.

That would still take time as it requires the recipient to have a ship capable of doing that to make it worth while.

Where as the bounty can be claimed straight out of the noob systems in a stock sidewinder
 
That would still take time as it requires the recipient to have a ship capable of doing that to make it worth while.

Where as the bounty can be claimed straight out of the noob systems in a stock sidewinder
Someone has to go farm the bounties though and you could only do it once before having to start grinding the bounties again. It's rinse and repeat with a carrier until you have billions transferred.
 
For something like this to work without being a credit farm there would need to be a reasonable account limit per individual (the game has been as low as $5 in the past and is currently free) and a limit on how often those accounts could be reset.

Of course, since credits don't matter no one is actually going to bother, just as no one who knows better is going to be incentivized to go CMDR bounty hunting just for credits.

So yeah, totally useless as a C&P improvement, and will be as long as:

1. The game makes it nigh impossible to inflict consequences on unwilling targets.
2. The consequences that can be inflicted consist largely of fiat funny money conjured from the aether.
 
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