Flight Controls - My Initial Impressions

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OP wants a twitch shooter space game.

Elite is not that. YAW is intended to be slow, it's the way it's supposed to be.

Star Citizen is more of an arcade cod-shooter-in-space game, where you can yaw at ludicrous speeds. Perhaps that game is more suiting to your liking.

I like this part:
(I'm a game programmer, and yes, this is a qualifying remark that you can feel free to pick apart and ridicule, I don't mind)

Somehow this statement is supposed to mean that OP's opinion far outweighs the opinion of others.

I can do something like that

I'm a systems engineer, thus my opinion should be treated as fact.
 
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If you are not using all thrusters on your ship then you haven't mastered the flight model yet. Hell, sometimes i thrust in every direction at once! That's how awesome I am!
 
I played so much Elite back in the day that anything other than the Elite model feels weird to me. I suspect I'm going to have massive problems when I get my first space ship in real life.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this criticism. I've had a similar initial impression as the OP, but eventually got used to it. It does improve once you learn to keep it in the blue zone, have better thrusters, get a generally more maneouverable ship. But first impressions do matter, and I feel Frontier isn't doing ED justice here.


I generally really dislike the "for game play reasons" discussion killer. I try to reason within the confines of the game world, why stuff works the way it does.


Regarding the yaw rate, if you use the external debug camera and inspect the ships, you can see that all of the maneouvering thrusters are either dorsally or ventrally of the ship. And if you watch which thrusters fire, you'll notice that both dorsal and ventral thrusters most close to the lateral line of the ship are being used to yaw. And since these thrusters provide mostly dorsal and ventral thrust, this isn't very efficient for yawing.


The ship designers could have added lateral thrusters. They could have instead used Control Moment Gyroscopes as a far more efficient mechanism for yaw, pitch and roll. But they didn't, and so we have really slow yaw rates. At least it's explainable within the confines of the game world.


And the improved manoeuvering in the blue zone make sense, if the reactor could not provide power to all engines and thrusters at the same time. Much like the power capacitor can't provide full power to all systems. So if you provide max (forward) throttle, there'd be less energy left for the thrusters, but that's ok, since you'd mostly want to go forward. If you throttle back, there's less load on the main thrusters, so the manoeuvering thrusters have more ooomph.


While this would explain the observed behaviour, it leads to another inconsistency: given zero throttle, the pitch, yaw, roll rates as well as the translation rates should be greatest, as there's full power available for the maneouvering thrusters. For now I can't come up with a good explanation except maybe: Some bureaucrats in the "Spaceship Standards Consortium" have decreed this behaviour for safety reasons and thus it became a standard for flight system computers (and it's actually those computers limiting maneouverability, not some handwavium nonsense.)


To me (and maybe others) this feels artificial because the effect on manoeuvrability is not based on the throttle setting (and thus engine output), but instead on the magnitude of the movement vector, ie. the ship's total speed. This is especially noticeable once you disable Flight Assist.


You could argue that lower rate of manoeuverability at low speeds is desireable because it's more likely that you'd want precision movement instead of raw speed.


Frontier stated they choose this flight model for it's entertainment value and because it leads to more interesting dog fights. So instead of circle strafe fights we got circle chases... tomayto, tomahto.
 
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I worked for 1 year at Codemasters as a developer. It was a few years after they had bought Sensible software so all of the old Cannon Fodder guys were there.


It was so cool.

Ross Noble came to the Christmas party before he was famous.

True story.

Everything I say matters.

What was the question?
 
Fly an airplane and you can see that Yaw is always slow and not intended to be used to change direction. Pitch and Roll, that's how fighters do it and that's how it is.
 
I honestly felt offended someone would actually think the flight controls provided were at all a reasonably good idea.
I don't seem to mind. I don't want to flip around like a Viper from Battlestar Galactica (ok, well, I do, but I realize how broken this would be). I bet it's a good that they don't cater to how you feel, but rather how everyone else feels about the flight controls.

if you want to mimic atmospheric flight, rolling causes the plane to turn
This would only be true in conditions where there were an atmosphere similar to Earths. Rolling causes yaw, and yaw causes rolling, mainly because of the difference in air flow over the ailerons on each wing. Currently, we're in space, meaning we don't have air flow. On top of that, only the Clipper really has "wings". There's no reason at all to mimic atmospheric flight in a place devoid of atmosphere.

I've never heard of anyone winning a fight by standing still, in any setting
I've won a fight by standing still. I've also seen others do the same. I've even watched it happen in a video game! The point is - just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not true.

Rolling to aim is extremely non-intuitive to me
Well, we're pretty glad that the game doesn't base it's control structure on every player's intuition then, eh?

that I will just need to re-adjust out of as soon as I play any other game.
You're honestly going to make this argument with a straight face, aren't you? If you call yourself a gamer and have never played one kind of game, only to have to re-adjust yourself to get used to the controls for another game, then you probably haven't played very many that weren't in the same genre.

(I'm a game programmer, and yes, this is a qualifying remark that you can feel free to pick apart and ridicule, I don't mind)
OK! .....HA, HA, HA! I'm also a game developer, although I'm just amazed that someone actually used this argument...

honestly, I don't want to play this game as it is
Bye!
 
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I worked for 1 year at Codemasters as a developer. It was a few years after they had bought Sensible software so all of the old Cannon Fodder guys were there.


It was so cool.

Ross Noble came to the Christmas party before he was famous.

True story.

Everything I say matters.

What was the question?

Toblerone-Rolo-Combo +1
 

Mu77ley

Volunteer Moderator
Yeah, people, you can defend "frontier's decision, vision, direction.." all you like, but the fact is - Elite 2: Frontier had the best space flight model. (Because of it's proximity to real-world physics)

Elite 2: Frontier had the most "realistic" space flight mode, which meant you had to use time acceleration rather than spend 2 weeks waiting for your ship to slow down when approaching planets, etc.

Elite 2: Frontier also had the most boring, tedious and irritating combat in a space game, and this was specifically caused by flight model.

But don't take my word for it, David Braben is also of the same opinion: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/15od2s/i_am_david_braben_cocreator_of_elite_creator_of/c7ochln

"I was most disappointed by the loss of immediacy in the combat - it just wasn't much fun (effectively jousting)."

Now, to cater to xbox generation you need something much simpler, or else they won't buy. Something like airplanes in space. There you go.

And that is just patent nonsense.

From the Kickstarter campaign: "I want a game that feels more like the original “Elite” to fly, and with more rapid travel (to allow for the multi-player nature of the game) – so you travel quickly using local ‘hyperspace’ travel rather than by fast-forwarding time – but with the rich galaxy of Frontier – and more, so much more."

So the flight model is nothing to do with the "xbox generation", or any other section of the gaming population which you seem to have a superiority complex over, it's that way because David Braben specifically wants it that way.
 
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I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this criticism. I've had a similar initial impression as the OP, but eventually got used to it. It does improve once you learn to keep it in the blue zone, have better thrusters, get a generally more maneouverable ship. But first impressions do matter, and I feel Frontier isn't doing ED justice here.


I generally really dislike the "for game play reasons" discussion killer. I try to reason within the confines of the game world, why stuff works the way it does.


Regarding the yaw rate, if you use the external debug camera and inspect the ships, you can see that all of the maneouvering thrusters are either dorsally or ventrally of the ship. And if you watch which thrusters fire, you'll notice that both dorsal and ventral thrusters most close to the lateral line of the ship are being used to yaw. And since these thrusters provide mostly dorsal and ventral thrust, this isn't very efficient for yawing.


The ship designers could have added lateral thrusters. They could have instead used Control Moment Gyroscopes as a far more efficient mechanism for yaw, pitch and roll. But they didn't, and so we have really slow yaw rates. At least it's explainable within the confines of the game world.


And the improved manoeuvering in the blue zone make sense, if the reactor could not provide power to all engines and thrusters at the same time. Much like the power capacitor can't provide full power to all systems. So if you provide max (forward) throttle, there'd be less energy left for the thrusters, but that's ok, since you'd mostly want to go forward. If you throttle back, there's less load on the main thrusters, so the manoeuvering thrusters have more ooomph.


While this would explain the observed behaviour, it leads to another inconsistency: given zero throttle, the pitch, yaw, roll rates as well as the translation rates should be greatest, as there's full power available for the maneouvering thrusters. For now I can't come up with a good explanation except maybe: Some bureaucrats in the "Spaceship Standards Consortium" have decreed this behaviour for safety reasons and thus it became a standard for flight system computers (and it's actually those computers limiting maneouverability, not some handwavium nonsense.)


To me (and maybe others) this feels artificial because the effect on manoeuvrability is not based on the throttle setting (and thus engine output), but instead on the magnitude of the movement vector, ie. the ship's total speed. This is especially noticeable once you disable Flight Assist.


You could argue that lower rate of manoeuverability at low speeds is desireable because it's more likely that you'd want precision movement instead of raw speed.


Frontier stated they choose this flight model for it's entertainment value and because it leads to more interesting dog fights. So instead of circle strafe fights we got circle chases... tomayto, tomahto.

The problem is that the majority of space fighter games follow the same model because the previous space game did it. That leaves little room for experimentation and the reasons given that it should do it aren't actually valid.

There is no precedence for manned space fighter craft in the real world. Nobody has ever built or flown one. You might be able to create a ship with fast yaw but it probably wouldn't look like a space plane.

Been trying to play X-Wing alliance again with the same joystick I use for ED and you can certainly feel the difference. While X-Wing was a fine game for its day there is a strong argument for the refined pin-point accuracy that the slow yaw gives.
 
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And here's what the creator of "the other game" had to say:

"A portion of the community has expressed concern about the ability for players to “turret” by going into decoupled mode and spin around to fire at their target, feeling this removes the skill level of dogfighting.

I know people think this but I can assure you that in our internal multiplayer tests pretty no one exclusively decouples and “turrets” as they would get destroyed very quickly.
The key to surviving a dogfight is about being constantly on the move and not being predicable with your movements – sitting still or moving in a constant vector (which is what happens when you decouple) will get you killed. Decoupled mode is best used by going into briefly for a quick orientation change then dropping back into coupled mode.

As we tweak the power of the maneuvering thrusters to make the main engine more significant going into decoupled mode, making a quick orientation change and going back into normal flight will be a great way to maximize your available thrust for a quick vector change. I know that some people think that being able to change your orientation much quicker than you can in an atmospheric flight sim makes the game easy but this is a space combat simulation NOT an atmospheric flight simulation and the ability to decouple your orientation from your velocity vector is absolutely something that would be used – and don’t forget a huge amount of the community demanded to be able to do the maneuvers you loved from Battle Star Galactica!"

Source: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13951-Flight-Model-And-Input-Controls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlAsSyDAWR8
Star Citizen here I come!

So faoff boost turns, with vertical thrust, then? Just, with only one button.

;)
 
I LOVE how my space ship handles!

And honestly absolutely NO ONE here should tell ANYONE how a space ship should handle cuz most probably haven't been in space. ;)
The controls are one of the best things in ED. Period.
 
Hi all, thanks for your feedback and debate.

The OP achieved their aim, a Dev (Mike Evans) read the post.

Disappointed as usual with the defensive snappishness of some replies.

We're now closing this thread as the discussion has become circular and we don't need another yaw debate.
 
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