Lol, you tell the op to git gut? [haha]
Flight Model: Has FDev Lost Their Way?
- Thread starter Frenotx
- Start date
Lol, you tell the op to git gut? [haha]
Comes up surprisingly often when I'm suggesting changes to mechanics. :facepalm:
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Well, to be fair, if someone is skilled at, say, chess and you're suggesting the game becomes more like go, it's not unreasonable for them to suggest that maybe you should get better at chess
Perma boost with FA off, and the weapon of choice PAs or rails. Keyboard and mouse FPS style game play. Thats the ultimate in skillz apparently.
Notice none of these uber PvPers ever use fixed multis or lazers.
Gimbals nerfed for good measure too and never ending chaff.
I thought the whole point of the flight model was so that it wasn't going to be turrets in space?
Notice none of these uber PvPers ever use fixed multis or lazers.
Gimbals nerfed for good measure too and never ending chaff.
I thought the whole point of the flight model was so that it wasn't going to be turrets in space?
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Except this is more like if chess had pieces added, and its rules tweaked making it like something else, an avid chess player said, "hey, we're losing the spirit of what made chess chess", and then someone counters with L2P.Well, to be fair, if someone is skilled at, say, chess and you're suggesting the game becomes more like go, it's not unreasonable for them to suggest that maybe you should get better at chess
I'm not sure FDev has "lost their way"... I think they just don't understand how to balance capabilities between the ships.
Possibly the easiest way to "fix" the problem is to just buff ALL small ships +20pitch +100boost +100%accel.
It should be easy for an Eagle to stay on the tail of a FAS.
Possibly the easiest way to "fix" the problem is to just buff ALL small ships +20pitch +100boost +100%accel.
It should be easy for an Eagle to stay on the tail of a FAS.
It would need a good bit more SPEED too, to have any hope of doing that. Sticking on someone's six requires you to stay very close, and you can't do that if you're slow.
That's the best solution and that goes for all small classed ships. But not without a turret buff.
If you look at my threads, you'll see I've been trying to get turrets improved for ages.
I don't go digging around in peeps profiles [wacko] like some the weirdos on these forums. I'll take your word for it. [up]
ED is not that polarised - Combat in ED is partly skill based and partly build based, only with certain metas does skill become mostly irrelevant. Simple answer - don't use the stupid OP metas if you want more of a challenge, better yet never use FA/Off either.
Tactics and situational awareness is still relevant, especially if you steer clear of the well known OP metas.
FD appear to have a plan to address those metas, we will just have to see how things pan out in the long run on that score.
Yes, I too have been both shocked and saddened by some of the remarks levelled at Frenotx. As he himself is too modest and restrained to answer them directly, let me explain:
Frenotx is predominantly a PvE combat pilot but whose near-unparalleled knowledge of this game's flight model has enabled him, almost uniquely, successfully to cross-apply his PvE skills into high achievement in occasional PvP.
In one memorable Beta, Frenotx fought arguably the best Corvette pilot in the entire game - Morbad - in the best Corvette ship in the entire game - Morbad's Corvette, with took 800 hours to make - with an SLF alongside - and Frenotx managed to break the Corvette's shields.
When both side's POV vids were uploaded, this achievement attracted even the personal praise of Sandro Sammarco, the game's Lead Designer.
Frenotx was flying a Viper IV.
In fairness to the critics, there have been a lot of negative threads on the forums recently and I understand that not everyone can know another's history.
But, in short, a number of posters in this thread are casting doubt upon the flight knowledge and flight skills of one of this forum's most valuable contributors, whose flight knowledge and flight skills are in truth beyond doubt.
You're too kind, good sir. Now I'm sitting here with this stupid grin.
Not really - there are differing opinions on how significant the flight model is or should be though.
On balance, ED has always had a hybrid flight model - no changes since at least 1.3 have changed that. Arguably, little has changed wrt how significant the flight model is either.
The only thing that has significantly changed is certain OP metas have got worse. FD attempted to address the issue directly and got a lot of (not entirely undeserved) flak over their initially selected approach, but now appear to be addressing the underlying fundamental concerns by a different tack.
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Flight model losing it's way? Not sure TBH. I'm not convinced there was much of a 'way' to start with....
As far as I remember FA-off wasn't going to be in the game but that was changed because of the fanbase/dev that loved Frontier and the more sim side of the elite universe.
I love Fa-off flight so would be really saddened if it got removed.
The argument around jousting and FPS-style combat only really applies to 1v1 style fights. CZ or mass combat kinda renders that dud really as jousting by definition can only be done with 1v1.
Outside of that the other big factor is not really having a way with the flight model is simply there is not true definition between the class sizes of the ships. When medium of large ships can boost or fly/turn faster than small ships you have just killed off any chance of the whole dogfight mechanic.
I personally think a overhaul of the boost mechanic would be better for flight model re-balance. something along the lines of a straight line boost without the ability to turn or similar for 'tactical positioning' but not something that you can do permanently and get turning speed increases like you can nowadays. To be perfectly honest I'd like the see the whole boost mechanic removed. most of the issues around the flight model would be sorted by that alone.
As far as I remember FA-off wasn't going to be in the game but that was changed because of the fanbase/dev that loved Frontier and the more sim side of the elite universe.
I love Fa-off flight so would be really saddened if it got removed.
The argument around jousting and FPS-style combat only really applies to 1v1 style fights. CZ or mass combat kinda renders that dud really as jousting by definition can only be done with 1v1.
Outside of that the other big factor is not really having a way with the flight model is simply there is not true definition between the class sizes of the ships. When medium of large ships can boost or fly/turn faster than small ships you have just killed off any chance of the whole dogfight mechanic.
I personally think a overhaul of the boost mechanic would be better for flight model re-balance. something along the lines of a straight line boost without the ability to turn or similar for 'tactical positioning' but not something that you can do permanently and get turning speed increases like you can nowadays. To be perfectly honest I'd like the see the whole boost mechanic removed. most of the issues around the flight model would be sorted by that alone.
The only part I really agree with here is perhaps the removal of FA/On manoeuvrability increases as a result of boost. That does not prevent pilots from doing an FA/Off flip while boosting but integrity loss would/should be a consideration. The more I read this thread, the more I think all this moaning about reverski and infini-boost sounds like sour grapes from at least some of the complainers.
I primarily use boosting under 5 basic circumstances: long distance non-cruise flight, attaining super cruise altitude after launching from a planet, clearing a station perimeter so I can enter super cruise, interception during/ingress into combat, and egress from combat. In hi-G planet situations, sometimes the boost mechanic is the only thing allowing a safe take-off. The long distance travel cases are the rare cases where I make use of what some call infini-boost.
Perhaps the easy answer would be to disable boost while FA/Off is active and visa versa - that might at least limit the utility of boosting in combat outside of the ingress/interception and egress circumstances. If this is done, then a boost mode switch could also be added so boost can be terminated early if deemed necessary.
Personally, though - I think the status quo should be maintained where the flight and boost mechanics are concerned. When atmospheric flight is added, things may be slightly different in that particular flight environment.
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IMHO one root of the issue is that bigger ships don't sacrifice speed or agility. In some aspects (like the ability to permaboost, or turn rate outside of the blue zone), they often *gain* it over their smaller counterparts.
This is compounded by engineering.
I think it's far too late in the game to contemplate the ground-up rebalance you'd need to fix this. But if it weren't, and I were in charge, here's where I'd start experimenting:
* Medium ships would have reduced turn rates. Large ships would have *greatly* reduced turn rates.
* The bigger the ship, the more critical it is to use the blue zone (Not less, like it tends to be now. pre-engineering FAS and Anaconda turned faster outside blue than an Eagle and it's only gotten worse).
* The bigger the ship, the less extra agility it gets from boosting. (On the other hand: larger ships would have *longer* boosts to use instead).
* Likewise, the bigger the ship, the less you can perma-boost.
* Chop top speeds down to roughly the scale they were at pre-engineering.
* For that matter, engineering becomes a lot more side-gradey, with more costly tradeoffs.
* Turrets would be a lot more effective. Rather than being too low-damage to be useful, they'd do the same damage as gimbals but take too much power to be practical on smaller ships.
Lucky for you I'm not in charge, since basically all of these would be wildly unpopular.
if you make it likr this, whats the point of any bigger ship? you would end up with a X like behvaior where you just fy into a blind spot of the bigger ship and autowin. The current turret palcement isn't even done properly enough, and surely 2-3 turrets would never autclass a FAS massive focussed fire. The change needed would be massively, and I doubt FD is going to change something that essential any more.
But this is a typical issue if you development a game in a long time in "chunks" if you brign in a new kind of ship you have no proper way to test the whole things and so the lack fo big ships in the early game never made sure the basic system was suitable for them.
There is no integrity loss from general flight irrespective of staying in the blue zone or not.
Wear and tear is based almost entirely on distance travelled in SC and if you've had any unsafe drops from SC.
Things would certainly be more interesting if one had to balance these variables, instead of modifications jacking them all up simultaneously.
I never found jousting particularly effective in anything, certainly not the FDL, especially prior to Engineering. Indeed, my the fundamental tactic I use with any vessel that has decent vertical and lateral thrust has generally been to get as close as possible and use those thrusters to stay out of my opponent's arc of fire as much as possible, while keeping them in my own. Engineering has made this more difficult to accomplish, for reasons that have already been mentioned, but I still try to avoid jousting.
This would just result in people toggling FA to boost, or give FA On a major, possibly unassailable advantage over FA off. Boosting is just as advantageous in combat with FA On as it is with FA off.
and then? Suddenly the eagle is OP and thats it. It can beat any ship less nimble than the FAS and having a dead Angle, so all those ships vs a eagle wll just jump off.
Why has no one yet answered my question of what you expect the new outcome to be? Half thos eideas will just make A beats B in 100% of the time if not flown with mistakes. And this won't leat to a combat, this will lead to jumping off of the one knowing he cannot win.
WWII like dogfights can only happen when everyone involved is similar enough to dogfight. But the big ones are just like B29's. But frontier forgot to gave them proper turrets covering all angles, and so they either can utilise themselves as turrets as a whole or would not even fight.
Being able to get into ones 6 by mechanic means you will always be able to achieve that, and this means no proper balanced battle will happen. So either they all have to fly like fighters, or you will ahve clear stone paper and scissor mechanics but then simply accept that stone enver beats paper
So tell me how do you expect a battle between a small ship and a big 3 one should turn out to be a proper and baalnced "fun" experience for both?
I'd expect Small ships to beat big ships all the time (Fw190 vs B17, Tomcat vs Bear etc etc) BUT there to be mission targets that NEED the Firepower available ONLY on Big ships...making their use a necessity at times (and encouraging organic wing/co-operative play by them requiring Escort)