Flight Model: Has FDev Lost Their Way?

ok I'll agree to the removal of boost when Fa-off if the blue zone crap is also removed when Fa-off so I have full effect from my thrusters regardless of my absolute speed.
Not sure I disagree with you on that... but it would kind of defeat the goal of disabling FA/Off while boosting. :rolleyes:

But on a more positive note I am still really enjoying just flying around in ED...
Me too :)

Just to be clear, I do not think the current flight/boost/FA mechanics should be changed at all, but if people insist on griping about it my suggestion is just as valid as theirs.
 
I personally think a overhaul of the boost mechanic would be better for flight model re-balance. something along the lines of a straight line boost without the ability to turn or similar for 'tactical positioning' but not something that you can do permanently and get turning speed increases like you can nowadays. To be perfectly honest I'd like the see the whole boost mechanic removed. most of the issues around the flight model would be sorted by that alone.

I agree, it's an excellent starting point to work with.

IMHO boost is cool. Permaboost, in particular, is problematic, especially on larger ships.
 
I agree, it's an excellent starting point to work with.

IMHO boost is cool. Permaboost, in particular, is problematic, especially on larger ships.
How is perma-boost problematic? If you mean in the context of FA/Off type manoeuvres when combined with it then my solution about making FA/Off and Boost mutually exclusive would perhaps solve that one.

I am not against nerfing the manoeuvrability gains during boost manoeuvres but perma-boost does have it's uses under general flight.
 
if you make it likr this, whats the point of any bigger ship? you would end up with a X like behvaior where you just fy into a blind spot of the bigger ship and autowin. The current turret palcement isn't even done properly enough, and surely 2-3 turrets would never autclass a FAS massive focussed fire.

A few points:

1. You'd need turrets to be effective and have more coverage, so there are fewer blind spots. There are also SLFs. You could also add short-range "all-aspect" missiles that (without the aid of multicrew) can target and fire at ships without needing to point at them. They wouldn't be hugely damaging, but enough to force a smaller ship out of the blind spot if they linger too long.

2. A small ship in the blind spot of a bigger ship should be a "tiger by the tail" situation. As long as you can stay there, you're relatively safe, but make one mistake and you're toast. Things like SLFs and the aforementioned missiles put pressure on you so can't stay there forever anyway.

3. Even if you can park in a larger ship's blindspot, they've got an enormous shield/armor advantage and can FSD out any time long before they're in any real danger. It's far from an "autowin."

4. All it takes to completely hose someone in the blind spot is another ship. If this threatens to make large ship AI too easy, have them call in allies. Police already do this, make it so the pirates can too.


The change needed would be massively, and I doubt FD is going to change something that essential any more.

I, unfortunately, agree completely that this is the case. So all of the above and my previous post amount to just dreaming. :)
 
Last edited:
I agree, it's an excellent starting point to work with.

IMHO boost is cool. Permaboost, in particular, is problematic, especially on larger ships.
Indeed. I don't think all the problems can be fixed with changes to boosting, but it's an excellent place to start. A lot could be done by changing the way boosts tend to behave as you go up in ship size.
How is perma-boost problematic? If you mean in the context of FA/Off type manoeuvres when combined with it then my solution about making FA/Off and Boost mutually exclusive would perhaps solve that one.

I am not against nerfing the manoeuvrability gains during boost manoeuvres but perma-boost does have it's uses under general flight.
If you don't understand why perma-boosting is a problem, then I suggest searching for one of the myriad threads addressing it. It's been explained many times, and FDev has even said they want to do something about it. I'm getting tired of debating with someone who's clearly ignorant in several facets of the subject.
 
Hardly ignorant, but I am getting tired of arguing with certain arrogant individuals. :rolleyes:

I know of the manoeuvrability gain issues but allowing ships to perma-boost for non-cruise medium distance ship travel is not exactly unreasonable. If you actually read the FULL post you should realise that I am not ignorant of all the concerns. My question was aimed at SushiW and not you - they may have a different perspective than you think.

I have heard the butt-hurt arguments from PvPers about perma-boost and similar things and find it all very tiresome overall.
 
(did not real all responses)

IMO, I have never thought that "getting on someone's tail" was ever a valid tactic in a space combat game. Any game that takes the dynamic of 0G maneuvering even remotely serious makes this just not workable. Removing the ability to fly "without thrust" and essentially "flip over" as you say would remove the essence of space flight. I do realize that we do not have a "true" 0G flight model for obvious reasons but I do think the balance is pretty good.

Fights do not "have to" devolve into a face tank head-on only fight. Other maneuvers can be implemented with great success. I have successfully implemented "early turn" maneuvers against FDL NPCs (yeah, I now they are NPCs) to lay fire from behind and on their flanks. Especially if I am in my Python which cannot turn or "flip" like an FDL. Granted you don't get that view for long. Maneuvers like a rolling reversal or a lag roll are not going to be effective on a target that can shut off forward thrust and flip over and fly backwards. But I do use a lot of my "virtual air combat" experience in ED with good success so the flight model can't be that far off.

Even in air combat tacking from behind or "saddling up" as we say, only lasts a few seconds. Thing is that is all you need to shoot down a fairly fragile aircraft. Our ships with shields and armor take quite a bit more hits to take them down. Plus facing your opponent head-on is no where near as dangerous for our ships than said aircraft.

Can the flight model be improved? I believe it can. It seems, and I could be wrong but it seems to me, when FA is off then thrust is shut off. Seems when I turn FA back on I am constantly resetting my thrust back to forward or I am flying backwards with reverse thrust. I would like it to respect my setting. If I want 0 thrust when I turn FA off I will set it that way, but that is just me.
 
Last edited:
I have heard the butt-hurt arguments from PvPers about perma-boost and similar things and find it all very tiresome overall.

In response to this remark, I feel obliged to point out that the Cmdr principally responsible for calling attention to perma-boost is Alexander the Grape, undefeated winner of the game's only galaxy-wide 1v1 League, and to this date, including in the 'post-perma-boost' era, one of the most celebrated and successful duellists ever known in the game. Perhaps the most celebrated.

I am not sure whether your remark was intended to imply that the principal complainant is likely to be a sore loser. But if so, let me assure you: he is not.
 
Oh god another flight model moan thread :/

Listen - I like to do canyon runs on planets, and perma-boost is a very handy thing for that.
 
In response to this remark, I feel obliged to point out that the Cmdr principally responsible for calling attention to perma-boost is Alexander the Grape, undefeated winner of the game's only galaxy-wide 1v1 League, and to this date, including in the 'post-perma-boost' era, one of the most celebrated and successful duellists ever known in the game. Perhaps the most celebrated.

I am not sure whether your remark was intended to imply that the principal complainant is likely to be a sore loser. But if so, let me assure you: he is not.

This game is not. all. about. PvP. though! And messing about with the flight model should not be based on PvP. Only a small % of players CARE about PvP in this game - and they're the most squeaky wheel on this forum and Reddit. :rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm already taking a break from the game due to a lot of different straws on the camel. Further messing around with the flight model just to placate the ePeen Brigade will definitely be the last frickin' straw for me.
 
Oh god another flight model moan thread :/

Listen - I like to do canyon runs on planets, and perma-boost is a very handy thing for that.
Imagine if you will, a world where FDev both resolved the perma boost problem, AND made boosting as or more fun for canyon runs, too. Why languish in the status quo when you can strive to improve? Perhaps something like making "boost" a sub-module of the engine module (like how SRV bays work), thus allowing for the pilot to choose what kind of boost they want.


  • Afterburner
    • Maximum speed
    • Long boost cycle, or perhaps even a toggle on / off
    • Little to no impact on maneuvering thrusters or rotation rates
    • Great for travel or racing
  • Pulse Jets
    • Short boost cycle
    • Major increase in lateral and linear acceleration
    • minimal impact on top speed or rotation rates
    • shortish cooldown
    • Great for dodging and making tight corners
  • Flywheel Overdrive
    • Very Short boost cycle
    • Major increase in rotation rates
    • minimal impact on top speed or acceleration
    • long cooldown
    • Great for occasionally turning the tables on a more evasive opponent

This isn't necessarily the only or even best solution. I'm just trying to make a point that it's good to open your mind, and not just settle for the way things are- there's always room for improvement.
 
Imagine if you will, a world where FDev both resolved the perma boost problem, AND made boosting as or more fun for canyon runs, too. Why languish in the status quo when you can strive to improve? Perhaps something like making "boost" a sub-module of the engine module (like how SRV bays work), thus allowing for the pilot to choose what kind of boost they want.


  • Afterburner
    • Maximum speed
    • Long boost cycle, or perhaps even a toggle on / off
    • Little to no impact on maneuvering thrusters or rotation rates
    • Great for travel or racing
  • Pulse Jets
    • Short boost cycle
    • Major increase in lateral and linear acceleration
    • minimal impact on top speed or rotation rates
    • shortish cooldown
    • Great for dodging and making tight corners
  • Flywheel Overdrive
    • Very Short boost cycle
    • Major increase in rotation rates
    • minimal impact on top speed or acceleration
    • long cooldown
    • Great for occasionally turning the tables on a more evasive opponent

This isn't necessarily the only or even best solution. I'm just trying to make a point that it's good to open your mind, and not just settle for the way things are- there's always room for improvement.

Absolutely no need to complicate the flight model further like that.

There is nothing wrong with the flight model as-is (even taking into account its Star Wars ridiculousness). It's already been mucked around with and doesn't need to be changed again just to suit PvPers explosion-lust.
 
Absolutely no need to complicate the flight model further like that.

There is nothing wrong with the flight model as-is (even taking into account its Star Wars ridiculousness). It's already been mucked around with and doesn't need to be changed again just to suit PvPers explosion-lust.
Except it's not just PvP- it's all combat, which is one of the few major branches of the game. It seems to consistiently be a HUGE SURPRISE to people, but PvE is my main activity in the game. I enjoy occasional PvP when it comes up, but I've done more mining than I've done PvP combat. I just happen to take a keen interest in learning the ins and outs of combat, and also have a strong interest in balance and good gameplay. A solution like that would only complicated it for combat, anyway, as non-combat folks would likely just stick to the afterburners for quicker travel to / from stations, better racing, faster canyon runs, etc.
 
How is perma-boost problematic? If you mean in the context of FA/Off type manoeuvres when combined with it then my solution about making FA/Off and Boost mutually exclusive would perhaps solve that one.

I am not against nerfing the manoeuvrability gains during boost manoeuvres but perma-boost does have it's uses under general flight.

From my perspective, permaboost means you can be turning at full speed basically 100% of the time. This entirely negates the variable turn speed mechanic. Who cares about speed management or the blue zone when you can just boost nonstop?

The other bit that's problematic is that due to the way distributor scaling works, especially post-engineers, bigger ships can perma-boost easier than smaller ones, which feels exactly backwards.

I'm not saying "nobody should be able to permaboost ever." But there should be meaningful tradeoffs, at least.



P.S. One thing I would love to try is to adopt the "boost diverter" upgrade slot from CQC/Arena into the main game. This is a very straightforward set of tradeoffs: there's one that lets you permaboost, but with appreciably reduced speed, another that gives you a lot of extra speed, but more costly boosts that often overshoot, and one balanced in between.
 
Last edited:
From my perspective, permaboost means you can be turning at full speed basically 100% of the time. This entirely negates the variable turn speed mechanic. Who cares about speed management or the blue zone when you can just boost nonstop?

The other bit that's problematic is that due to the way distributor scaling works, especially post-engineers, bigger ships can perma-boost easier than smaller ones, which feels exactly backwards.

I'm not saying "nobody should be able to permaboost ever." But there should be meaningful tradeoffs, at least.
In that case, we are (perhaps) mostly in accord. However, there are currently trade-offs for boosting in terms of heat generation and power balancing for boosting. Personally, I use charge enhanced PD engineering and find that in order to perma-boost I need to direct full-pips to engines. It is mostly impractical for me to perma-boost for combat reasons regardless of the ship I happen to be in (for various reasons), but if some find it doable and practical for them - far cop to them I say.

IMO bigger ships should be able to boost more easily - their larger size allows them to accommodate more powerful components and greater reserves and their larger surface area should allow them to more easily dissipate any heat gains. Their notionally longer stopping distance should also work to their advantage as well.

A simple compromise might be to make the level of boost proportional to the pip allocation in a comparable way to the way non-boost speed is limited by pip allocation. However, that would penalise everyone including the more peaceful players.

I do not disagree with the principle of not increasing thruster power (or at least not as much as it is currently) when boost is applied but overall I think the level/strength of complaints against the current flight mechanics are mostly unwarranted and unjustified. I know FD has stated they want to do something about perma-boost but IMO I rate the complaints about perma-boost (and similar concerns) at the level of "the-sky-is-falling".

As for CQC "boost diverter", I don't think I like that idea at all. However, I can see benefits in introducing mechanics/tunings that allow players to trade-off base manoeuvrability (not perma-booost related) against top speed.
 
Last edited:
In that case, we are (perhaps) mostly in accord. However, there are currently trade-offs for boosting in terms of heat generation and power balancing for boosting. Personally, I use charge enhanced PD engineering and find that in order to perma-boost I need to direct full-pips to engines. It is mostly impractical for me to perma-boost for combat reasons regardless of the ship I happen to be in (for various reasons), but if some find it doable and practical for them - far cop to them I say.

IMO bigger ships should be able to boost more easily - their larger size allows them to accommodate more powerful components and greater reserves and their larger surface area should allow them to more easily dissipate any heat gains. Their notionally longer stopping distance should also work to their advantage as well.

A simple compromise might be to make the level of boost proportional to the pip allocation in a comparable way to the way non-boost speed is limited by pip allocation. However, that would penalise everyone including the more peaceful players.

I do not disagree with the principle of not increasing thruster power (or at least not as much as it is currently) when boost is applied but overall I think the level/strength of complaints against the current flight mechanics are mostly unwarranted and unjustified. I know FD has stated they want to do something about perma-boost but IMO I rate the complaints about perma-boost (and similar concerns) at the level of "the-sky-is-falling".

As for CQC "boost diverter", I don't think I like that idea at all.
Bigger ships are also, well, bigger. Yes they can have bigger engines, etc., but they also have to move way more mass. As for the extra surface area, that's not how math works. As something gets bigger, the surface-area-to-volume ratio goes down. That means bigger and bigger ships would actually struggle more with heat, not less. This fact is why single-celled organisms tend to stay small. Since they don't have a circulatory system, they have to rely on exclusively surface exchanges for nutrients, gas exchange, etc. If they got any bigger, their needs would increase (greater volume), but their exchange rates (relative to their needs) would decrease. That of course is all pointless though, since sacrificing gameplay for the sake of realism is generally not a great idea, and also something FDev (by evidence of all the concessions the flight model already has) is not willing to do.

As for proportional boost, that was already added into the game to some degree. The more pips you have, the more maneuverability increase you get during a boost. It unfortunately does nothing to fix the permaboost problem though because, as you pointed out, you generally already have to keep 3 or 4 pips in ENG to pull it off. You may find it more practical to keep 4 pips in ENG during the ping-pongy joust fights that PvP often devolves into. You only need pips in SYS for a moment during the close pass (since that's often the only time you're getting shot at), and you don't need to keep 4 pips in WEP all the time since you're generally only firing during the close pass. Yes there's a cost, but depending on the flying style and weapons used, that cost is not really a thing.
 
a lot of people claim the ships erase pilot skill.
i invite those people to have a crack at the population of san-tu.
even post engineers buff where the ships are more equal in eng than ever before the same few always keep winning the fights, spoiler, its their skill.

the perma-boost and PA jousts while predictable make the fights fast paced and give tiny windows for snap shots and evasion.
i would argue that the faster the ships more the more room there is for individual skill to shine.

if you slow down the boosts and the turn rate there will be too little room to get out of an opponents line of fire.
 
Bigger ships are also, well, bigger. Yes they can have bigger engines, etc., but they also have to move way more mass. As for the extra surface area, that's not how math works. As something gets bigger, the surface-area-to-volume ratio goes down. That means bigger and bigger ships would actually struggle more with heat, not less.
Depends on numerous factors but your reasoning only applies in the solid mass case where we are talking about heat capacitance versus passive heat dissipation. Add engineering to the mix and things become less cut and dry - take heat sinks on a CPU as an example their size and surface area allow for heat to be radiated and dissipated more easily - even water cooling systems have a large radiator somewhere, normally away from the critical components. Larger vessels would have more surface space to accommodate dedicated heat dissipation units and more internal space to accommodate heat dispersion solutions. Laptops versus desktops is comparable example where size and weight do not go against their ability to dissipate heat and actually the higher volume works in the favour of cooling the device in question.

Where boosting is concerned, larger ships should be able to conserve momentum easier while smaller vessels should be able to accelerate and decelerate faster. The smaller vessels may be able to achieve a higher top speed but the larger vessels may still be faster on aggregate, depends on numerous factors. The smaller vessels should also be more manoeuvrable on balance - typically they are in ED.
 
Depends on numerous factors but your reasoning only applies in the solid mass case where we are talking about heat capacitance versus passive heat dissipation. Add engineering to the mix and things become less cut and dry - take heat sinks on a CPU as an example their size and surface area allow for heat to be radiated and dissipated more easily - even water cooling systems have a large radiator somewhere, normally away from the critical components. Larger vessels would have more surface space to accommodate dedicated heat dissipation units and more internal space to accommodate heat dispersion solutions. Laptops versus desktops is comparable example where size and weight do not go against their ability to dissipate heat and actually the higher volume works in the favour of cooling the device in question.

Where boosting is concerned, larger ships should be able to conserve momentum easier while smaller vessels should be able to accelerate and decelerate faster. The smaller vessels may be able to achieve a higher top speed but the larger vessels may still be faster on aggregate, depends on numerous factors. The smaller vessels should also be more maneuverable on balance - typically they are in ED.
  1. It is extremely cut and dry. In space, there is no air. No air means the only way to transfer heat is via radiation. Radiation only cares about exposed surface area. Things like CPU heatsinks increase cooling by having more surface area, but they do it via a bunch of little fins and such. That approach doesn't work with radiation. Think of radiation like little particles shooting off all the surfaces. Now consider all those fins, and more importantly, the gaps between them. If a particle shoots off the surface of the side of one of those fins, it will just collide with the fin on the other side of the gap. The only surfaces that can actually launch a particle away are the surfaces facing out. Because of that, fins like that don't actually increase the amount of surface area from which heat can radiate. A solid block of metal would be more effective, since it wouldn't lose the functional surface area that a fin-based setup does when looking along the direction of the gaps between the fins.
  2. Water cooling works by taking the heat away from the component, and bringing it to a radiator. It's quite possible that our ships already use liquid cooling of some variety, but that doesn't help get rid of heat faster- it just moves the heat somewhere else. A ship's cooling ability is still ultimately limited by how much outward-facing surface area it has, and there is no way around it (other than dumping the heat into an object, and throwing that object off the ship. That's what heatsink launchers do.
  3. All things conserve momentum exactly the same way. On earth heavy things seem to coast better than light things, but that's just because of drag from the atmosphere and / or friction. Those things don't exist in the vacuum of space. Big ships will have more inertia (how hard something "trys" to keep moving at its current velocity), but that means their engines have to fight that much harder to change velocity.

This stuff isn't terribly relevant, but it just irks me when someone is so misinformed, but seem to think they're not.
 
Back
Top Bottom