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Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
Arguendo
Ashnak said:
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. But I also am (peripherally, in this case - so far...) involved with data collection/distribution in the automotive sector, and one discussion is always "how much of the cool stuff we tested on closed beta can they actually enable in the public version".
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That's for sure the key here, and also why FDev have been contacted directly by the developer.

I have been involved in the in-house testing, and it truly is amazing what you can do with a bit of coding and a few volunteers. It boggles the mind, or atleast my mind. The truly amazing stuff, which is also some of the criticism against something like this if I understand it correctly, is not released outside the in-house testing done though. And it has been extremely limited in scope tbh.
 

Martind Forlon

Martind Forlon
Jockey79 said:
Depends. I suppose for those in the UK / EU then Data Protection may apply. As you're collecting peoples names / info.
And someones "online persona" can be a precious thing used from game to game as well as on social media.

So it depends on how that data is used / shared.
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So if database is non-public (i.e. nothing like list of nicks there freely available), you can only send request (client) that nick is there with 6 (example) players kills, can play important role? Maybe we go off-topic here, sorry if so.
 
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sovapid

sovapid
Genar-Hofoen said:
It's true that such information is generated and stored on your system.

The problem starts - in my opinion - when you then take that locally stored data identifying a player's character (personal information), and then publish that information to a widely disseminated global database, without a prior agreement from that player whose details you are publicly publishing.

This is different from what 3rd party exploration tools do - which is upload information about star systems, stars, and planets explored. There may even be a CMDR name attached to that information, but that name has been supplied voluntarily by the player who is submitting the scan and trip info.

Sending "personal" details about a player - i.e. their commander name - without their permission, is a problem - again in my opinion - made worse by then subsequently attaching some kind of naughty/nice label to them.

Regards
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It is hard for me to see how the commander name can be considered "personal" information, because it is already getting pushed out to every other player I encounter.

If I jump into a system with 10 other commanders, my client is broadcasting out my player name to all 10 other players. It is publicly sending it to anyone I run into. It is by its very nature already public information that I have consented to being public.

To then try and classify it as "personal" information because it gets stored somewhere else seems like a stretch to me.
 
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Genar-Hofoen

Genar-Hofoen
Perhaps the solution to any perceived problem, is to remove the central server from the design, and to make the add-on only work with data generated and saved at the player's computer?

i.e. Instead of scraping a CMDR's name from cmdrHistory and sending that to a central server, store that name on the same machine, then individual users can decide on the naughty/nice, for their own personal usage.

I see no problem with an individual user maintaining their own list of naughty/nice users and keeping it to themselves, so to speak. An automated equivalent of writing a CMDR's name into Notepad with a label next to the name.

The add-on would work in the same manner, except lists are not sent to a central server or disseminated globally from said server.
 

Genar-Hofoen

Genar-Hofoen
sovapid said:
It is hard for me to see how the commander name can be considered "personal" information, because it is already getting pushed out to every other player I encounter.

If I jump into a system with 10 other commanders, my client is broadcasting out my player name to all 10 other players. It is publicly sending it to anyone I run into. It is by its very nature already public information that I have consented to being public.
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Except that data is not persistent in the sense that it is only relevant to that game instance you and they are in.

sovapid said:
To then try and classify it as "personal" information because it gets stored somewhere else seems like a stretch to me.
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A CMDR name is tied to the individual game account of a human player. In that sense, it might or could be classified as 'personal'. I am not a lawyer, so don't know for sure.

Besides which, I'm not even concerned with the 'personal information' angle at all. That's a point someone who is not me has brought up.

I'm saying that scraping CMDR names off ones local storage, adding a naughty/nice label, uploading that to central, persistent storage, which is then globally distributed amongst the add-on's users, might be incompatible with Frontier's ToS/EULA, and also as a concept makes me uncomfortable, as in my personal opinion, this could be used as a sort of tool which enabled witch-hunts, and is also something for which a devious and hostile user could potentially inject bad data into.

Regards.
 

iFred

I
sovapid said:
It is hard for me to see how the commander name can be considered "personal" information, because it is already getting pushed out to every other player I encounter.

If I jump into a system with 10 other commanders, my client is broadcasting out my player name to all 10 other players. It is publicly sending it to anyone I run into. It is by its very nature already public information that I have consented to being public.

To then try and classify it as "personal" information because it gets stored somewhere else seems like a stretch to me.
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Your example is correct but not complete. If one of the other 10 commanders has the tool running, all 10 names are published into the database, even without 8 others not even knowing about the existance of such a tool.

And as said above - as long as nobody has concerns with the commander name, everything is fine. I am 100 % certain that a commander name is considered as personal identifiable data and therefore all Data protection laws kick in.

For example: We have an international project running regarding the test (TEST!) of a CRM-System hosted in a cloud (AWS). Even the test-users (example: named "Testfred 1", "Testfred2") are using IP´s from the network of the company they are testing from, and even if only the name and the IP is stored in the CRM-System, data protection kicks in - proven by a couple of lawyers of our company.

It´s totally B/S, I know - but it´s exactly the way it is right now.

And at the end of the day we all know: In a community like we have you will always have 1 idiot who is bringing this to court and all I want is FD not to run in a trap.
 

Artie

Artie
iFred said:
...and even if only the name and the IP is stored in the CRM-System, data protection kicks in - proven by a couple of lawyers of our company.....
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Just to note - important condition is "name AND IP address". From the upcoming european GDPR storing a name OR address, which cannot be paired together and user identified that way, shouldn't be an issue. Also, GDPR is not applied to personal "home" projects. Just my two worthless eurocents to this heated discussion. ;)
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
There are a number of options open to LeKeno on how to proceed with this, depending on feedback from FD on what they consider acceptable. There are certainly ways for this to be released without central databases for example. By allowing people to make their own and then choose to share with individuals/groups on their own cognizance.

Overall though, i think its mainly a case of wait and see now.
 

Gunnet

G
Perhaps I'm just too far removed from EU-level red tape. But I don't see how the name of somebody's character in a video game, or the location and activities of that character in the video game's virtual world, could possibly be considered personal information in a real world legal sense. The idea seems utterly ludicrous.

It's not like this is even the name of your account with Frontier. It's a name you enter in the game's start screen and can change at any time by beginning a new character.
 

Jockey79

Jockey79
Gunnet said:
Perhaps I'm just too far removed from EU-level red tape. But I don't see how the name of somebody's character in a video game, or the location and activities of that character in the video game's virtual world, could possibly be considered personal information in a real world legal sense. The idea seems utterly ludicrous.

It's not like this is even the name of your account with Frontier. It's a name you enter in the game's start screen and can change at any time by beginning a new character.
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It can be considered a "Brand", for example "Pewdie Pie" is a guys online name, but it is a recognised "Brand" and attached to a person.
Then by spreading information about that person it could be seen as "slander" or "liable" (depending how you pass information)

Just like people have gone to court over virtual items they create in sandbox games, suing folks who copy them under "I.P. rights."

Just because it's on a PC screen, does not mean it's not worth something - including a name.

(I know, it's madness. But it's the world we now live in)
 

Ozram

Ozram
Jockey79 said:
It can be considered a "Brand", for example "Pewdie Pie" is a guys online name, but it is a recognised "Brand" and attached to a person.
Then by spreading information about that person it could be seen as "slander" or "liable" (depending how you pass information)

Just like people have gone to court over virtual items they create in sandbox games, suing folks who copy them under "I.P. rights."

Just because it's on a PC screen, does not mean it's not worth something - including a name.

(I know, it's madness. But it's the world we now live in)
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Totally off topic but... will you be ready for our testing and recording on the weekend?
 

Jockey79

Jockey79
Ozram said:
Totally off topic but... will you be ready for our testing and recording on the weekend?
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Yup, been testing different configs out all week.
Trying to remember what config I actually liked last time I flew this ship.

Currently in Fong doing testing in the HazRes there. Plus next to founders, so I can mess with my config on the cheap :D

When you're ready, if you send a join request to my PG. We can test without anyone trying to interfere.
I've kicked everyone out of my PG, so it will be just us for the test.

(plus didn't someone else want in? they'll need to join also)

[Edit: It's not allowing the full name of the system, lol. Linked it so you can see.]
 
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Ozram

Ozram
Jockey79 said:
Yup, been testing different configs out all week.
Trying to remember what config I actually liked last time I flew this ship.

Currently in Fong doing testing in the HazRes there. Plus next to founders, so I can mess with my config on the cheap :D

When you're ready, if you send a join request to my PG. We can test without anyone trying to interfere.
I've kicked everyone out of my PG, so it will be just us for the test.

(plus didn't someone else want in? they'll need to join also)

[Edit: It's not allowing the full name of the system, lol. Linked it so you can see.]
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Awesome. Really looking forward to it.
 

CMDR GTR2014

CMDR GTR2014
Frontier answer to the ticket.

(if it's not to be pasted here please delete mods! I couldn't find an reply button on the ticket, so i couldn't ask for the support about it.)

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