Modes Flying in Open? Last night, EDR saved my life. It could save yours too!

[Genar-Hofoen]

So, every app and bot that reads from the journal is against the EULA?

Uh..

Probably needs to be posted as well in the tools section.

Already been discussing this with a few people.

Sure hope you're not using any tools that read from the player journal.

I honestly hope you're being sarcastic

If Frontier didn't want us using data from the Player Journal, they wouldn't have created the Player Journal (which was produced specifically so we 3rd party developers can obtain data from the game as and when a player plays it (hence the 'journal' part in the name).

Also, please realise the potential issues in that specific add-on are entirely separate from any of the usual 3rd party tools, for which their own CMDR information is being uploaded on a voluntary basis, whereas for this add-on, a player would be uploading CMDR data (i.e. other CMDR names) on an involuntary basis.

 

[Arguendo]

Also, please realise the potential issues in that specific add-on are entirely separate from any of the usual 3rd party tools, for which their own CMDR information is being uploaded on a voluntary basis, whereas for this add-on, a player would be uploading CMDR data (i.e. other CMDR names) on an involuntary basis.

It has already been noted that there are third-party tools (example is a specific Discord bot) that also does this, using only the Player Journal. Users upload their journals to record combat statistics, whereby the "other side" is also included. So CMDR name of the "other side", including location and other stats are then available to everyone who has access to the bot, regardless of whether the "other" CMDR has agreed to this. Incidentally, that's what Agony referred to in his comment that you interpreted as sarcasm.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

So, every app and bot that reads from the journal is against the EULA?

Probably needs to be posted as well in the tools section.

Sure hope you're not using any tools that read from the player journal.

Wouldn't that mean that EDDiscovery and EDSM are illegal? What about EDDB.IO? There must be some asterics in there.

 

[Martind Forlon]

Wouldn't that mean that EDDiscovery and EDSM are illegal? What about EDDB.IO? There must be some asterics in there.

Don't panic please. Yea, it may looks like someone clever have opened an pandora box, but unless there is clear FD official reaction, all these mentioned tools used by many players are ok.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Wouldn't that mean that EDDiscovery and EDSM are illegal? What about EDDB.IO? There must be some asterics in there.

No, it doesn't. Otherwise Frontier who we in the EDCD have direct contact with would have said something by now

 

[Arguendo]

Again, there are no conclusions in that email. It appears as a pretty standard response saying "Thanks for your concern. We will investigate."

 

[robbyp]

Frontier generated the journal API, bless them, for 3rd party tools to use. And they let us use the CAPI.

In return, 3rd party developers should respect Frontiers position and not screen scrape, decode internal Frontier caches etc, look into their program files.

Thats my position anyway.

 

[LeKeno]

The reports of my demise are greatly exaggerated

I wasn't sure if reviving this thread was the best idea but I see a lot of great folks being concerned about what Fdev's reply means.
While I also think it's just a standard response of "we will investigate", I'm hoping that by sharing the replies I got you will also be convinced about it and more importantly stop worrying about the implications to various third parties.

11/9:

11/10:

To summarize:

• The player journal qualifies for an "implicitly authorized" use. Anything that's in there can be used by third parties.
• The cmdrhistory file, typically found in %userprofile%\AppData\Local\Frontier Developments\Elite Dangerous\CommanderHistory doesn't qualify for "implicitly authorized" use.
• Fdev seems pretty happy about EDR as a whole (both the warning feature and bounty hunter features)

So, I will proceed with removing the cmdrhistory functionality from EDR. What this means:

• EDR will no longer automatically warn you based on who is in your instance.
• EDR will proactively warn you whenever a dangerous cmdr shows up in the player journal (e.g. interdiction, comms, and other events that include a cmdr's name).
• EDR could warn you based on info reported by other EDR users who were recently in the same system or in the system you are going to.

There are other valid points that have been made in this thread and I will do my best to address them.

Notes: about the 2 questions that were left unanswered, I was asking their opinion about specific alternatives in case Fdev didn't like some aspects of EDR.

 

[Gunnet]

I wasn't sure if reviving this thread was the best idea but I see a lot of great folks being concerned about what Fdev's reply means.
While I also think it's just a standard response of "we will investigate", I'm hoping that by sharing the replies I got you will also be convinced about it and more importantly stop worrying about the implications to various third parties.

11/9:
https://i.imgur.com/Ogtys6K.png


11/10:
https://i.imgur.com/v7kLvP5.png


To summarize:

• The player journal qualifies for an "implicitly authorized" use. Anything that's in there can be used by third parties.
• The cmdrhistory file, typically found in %userprofile%\AppData\Local\Frontier Developments\Elite Dangerous\CommanderHistory doesn't qualify for "implicitly authorized" use.
• Fdev seems pretty happy about EDR as a whole (both the warning feature and bounty hunter features)

So, I will proceed with removing the cmdrhistory functionality from EDR. What this means:

• EDR will no longer automatically warn you based on who is in your instance.
• EDR will proactively warn you whenever a dangerous cmdr shows up in the player journal (e.g. interdiction, comms, and other events that include a cmdr's name).
• EDR could warn you based on info reported by other EDR users who were recently in the same system or in the system you are going to.

There are other valid points that have been made in this thread and I will do my best to address them.

Notes: about the 2 questions that were left unanswered, I was asking their opinion about specific alternatives in case Fdev didn't like some aspects of EDR.

Thanks for sharing their response.

It's a pity about the cmdrhistory file. I wonder whether a request for journal events on players entering or leaving the instance could gain any traction.

Do you know offhand if a simple scan and/or using any of the dedicated scanners generates a journal entry? If so, actively scouting for threats should still be pretty viable.

 

[LeKeno]

Thanks for sharing their response.

It's a pity about the cmdrhistory file. I wonder whether a request for journal events on players entering or leaving the instance could gain any traction.

It's worth trying. I'll post something. In fact, it would be better than the cmdrhistory because it gets updated when a player leaves an instance but doesn't contain any information to dissociate between entering and leaving.
This resulted in false positives for EDR.

Do you know offhand if a simple scan and/or using any of the dedicated scanners generates a journal entry? If so, actively scouting for threats should still be pretty viable.

I believe that there is no events for cmdrs scans. My plan is to allow EDR users to scout for threats by being social (i.e. you send an o7 to someone, you get to know a bit more about them and you help other EDR users with the reported presence).
It would be nice if EDR results in more social interactions between commanders.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

It's good that all this got sorted out in the end. [up]

 

[Ozram]

This makes me think of the in game assassination missions. In those, when you go to the target system you can find their approx location in two ways, scanning the Nav beacon or honking the horn. Does the honk generate any info in the journal?

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

This makes me think of the in game assassination missions. In those, when you go to the target system you can find their approx location in two ways, scanning the Nav beacon or honking the horn. Does the honk generate any info in the journal?

Not for an ADS honk, no.

 

[Ozram]

Not for an ADS honk, no.

Cheers. It would be nice if FD could add some journal possibilities to certain things like that (and leave the rest to the magic gamer/developers).

 

[Knuttjob]

Followed this thread with interest.

I imagine there are many groups who would love to have something that helps them find/avoid players of interest. And, I wouldn't be surprised if groups who want it, will soon have the capability (assuming some haven't already).

+Rep to Jamesey1981 for representing the important point that, however well intentioned, any single player/group potentially having the ability to judge other players and collate/distribute information about their whereabouts, might not be such a good thing.

Personally, I would prefer that if this is to exist, the capability is provided and managed by FDev ...ideally integrated into the story and creating further opportunities for gameplay e.g. the scouting role mentioned sounded like it could be fun.