Frontier - Enough Shoulder Shrugging - Get Tough on Exploits and Exploiters.

[Bran Tse Mallory]

This is an interesting can of worms you've chosen to open my friend...

Exploit - stuff you have been told not to do
Method - stuff that you have been told is OK to do

I just wanted to put that there as I'll be using the terms and want to make sure readers are clear about what I am talking about. Any exploits in a game will by their very existence be abused by gamer's to gain an advantage no matter how small that may be and so the almost endless battle between developer and exploiter begins. Numerous patches later companies find themselves looking at the ban hammer as a way of resolving what is in essence their mistake. Theirs and their companies QA department plus the play testers - all of them are to blame for not spotting it and sorting it out - This then translates into the player base being castigated for using the software presented to them.

Then there are certain features which although viewed by some as a potential exploit they are in-fact an intended function of the software from a design point - a legitimate game play method.

Frontier have told us that mode swapping is a method and they have no problem with us doing it but I have a serious problem with that. It is nothing more than instance swapping and taking advantage of the server setup Frontier have developed. once you enter a new instance you get a fresh call to the mission's system which then throws you a batch of content. Swap to another instance or mode in this 'method' of using the software and you'll get more content.

In all honesty I cannot see how logging out of the main game to the menu and then re-entering into a different mode, causing a new instance to be created can be called game play. It is nothing more than exploiting the software to give you more. In my eye's this is very lazy and sloppy to of left such a system in place for so long only to then tell us 'No, when we had a design meeting long ago we all agreed that this was the best way to do things and it still is!".

To be clear, I have no personal problem with people doing this, I just refuse to do it myself as I see it as cheap and rather pathetic to log in and out of a game just for virtual credits.

 

[Iafeth]

In all honesty I cannot see how logging out of the main game to the menu and then re-entering into a different mode, causing a new instance to be created can be called game play. It is nothing more than exploiting the software to give you more. In my eye's this is very lazy and sloppy to of left such a system in place for so long only to then tell us 'No, when we had a design meeting long ago we all agreed that this was the best way to do things and it still is!".

Totally agree. It breaks immersion completely. And also makes some missions easier. And I feel a little bit stupid when I am searching for wanted skimmers instead of just spawning them by relogging.

 

[Theodrid]

This is an interesting can of worms you've chosen to open my friend...

Exploit - stuff you have been told not to do
Method - stuff that you have been told is OK to do

I just wanted to put that there as I'll be using the terms and want to make sure readers are clear about what I am talking about. Any exploits in a game will by their very existence be abused by gamer's to gain an advantage no matter how small that may be and so the almost endless battle between developer and exploiter begins. Numerous patches later companies find themselves looking at the ban hammer as a way of resolving what is in essence their mistake. Theirs and their companies QA department plus the play testers - all of them are to blame for not spotting it and sorting it out - This then translates into the player base being castigated for using the software presented to them.

Then there are certain features which although viewed by some as a potential exploit they are in-fact an intended function of the software from a design point - a legitimate game play method.

Frontier have told us that mode swapping is a method and they have no problem with us doing it but I have a serious problem with that. It is nothing more than instance swapping and taking advantage of the server setup Frontier have developed. once you enter a new instance you get a fresh call to the mission's system which then throws you a batch of content. Swap to another instance or mode in this 'method' of using the software and you'll get more content.

In all honesty I cannot see how logging out of the main game to the menu and then re-entering into a different mode, causing a new instance to be created can be called game play. It is nothing more than exploiting the software to give you more. In my eye's this is very lazy and sloppy to of left such a system in place for so long only to then tell us 'No, when we had a design meeting long ago we all agreed that this was the best way to do things and it still is!".

To be clear, I have no personal problem with people doing this, I just refuse to do it myself as I see it as cheap and rather pathetic to log in and out of a game just for virtual credits.

Virtual +1 Bran.

 

[BL1P]

Now I'm a little confused... I think I know the game pretty well, are there exploits that gain you Elite rank?

I know I took advantage of some mis-calculations by FD for some of my rank. Sothis trucking got me Trade Elite quicker than any other way, and Sightseeing missions helped me go from Pioneer to Elite fairly quickly. But I can't imagine either of these would be considered exploits.

If it was not an intended game mechanic by design, but the players using that mechanic profit where they are not intended to profit, then by definition it is an exploit.
Its upto Fdev how they deal with the exploit/exploiters, and also how much of an exploit they consider it.

For example. Fdev know that by definition mode swapping to reset mission boards and instances is an exploit, because it was not designed for that purpose. However they do not consider it a punishable exploit, I believe they called it a grey area, which may or may not be changed in the future. That was the gist of the reply I got, from the email I sent.

I think OP is correct in asking Fdev to take a stronger and faster stance on the Exploits and Exploiters.
It may be too late, but better late than never.

 

[shadragon]

You're talking to developers who coded in a built-in exploit into their latest feature - magic afk pips in multi-pew. Literally a pay 2 exploit feature that gives an advantage to those with 2 or more accounts over those with just one.

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

As someone with three accounts, I can tell you this "exploit" is as easy as juggling chainsaws and broken bottles at the same time. If you think you can make millions doing it, feel free.

As for the OP, game exploits do not affect me or my game. I don't use them and am not a victim of them. Play your way and have fun. The people making billions are just ruining their own games. Focus on yours.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

If it was not an intended game mechanic by design, but the players using that mechanic profit where they are not intended to profit, then by definition it is an exploit.
Its upto Fdev how they deal with the exploit/exploiters, and also how much of an exploit they consider it.

For example. Fdev know that by definition mode swapping to reset mission boards and instances is an exploit, because it was not designed for that purpose. However they do not consider it a punishable exploit, I believe they called it a grey area, which may or may not be changed in the future. That was the gist of the reply I got, from the email I sent.

I think OP is correct in asking Fdev to take a stronger and faster stance on the Exploits and Exploiters.
It may be too late, but better late than never.

I can't bounce back and forth between two fronts.

I don't see exploits for credits hurting anyone other than the exploiter themselves by shortening their own gaming experience. Novice Anacondas are not a threat to anyone, those people can play however they want.

However, I do see a point where Shar brought up exploiting for Elite rank. If there is a way to break the game to gain rank very quickly, then I might be swayed in my opinion that it doesn't hurt anyone but themselves. But, as I posted, I am not aware of any working exploits in the game to gain Elite rank? There ARE ummm "efficient" means of gaining rank through mistakes in FD's calculations, but I don't think it's fair to say that I used an exploit for my Exploration Elite because I did sightseeing missions.

 

[Theodrid]

As someone with three accounts, I can tell you this "exploit" is as easy as juggling chainsaws and broken bottles at the same time. If you think you can make millions doing it, feel free.

As for the OP, game exploits do not affect me or my game. I don't use them and am not a victim of them. Play your way and have fun. The people making billions are just ruining their own games. Focus on yours.

I do Shad, but as I said above the integrity of Frontier and the gameworld do matter to me too, actually far more than how or why commander x, y or z got his/her battle 'conda. If I was a potential Elite customer now, considering/unsure whether or not to invest, a lot of the stuff on or near the top of the YouTube hits would not be a positive in that regard. That can also be said when looking at some of the stuff on Frontier's own bloody forums, (which I consider almost unbelievable), I admit it isn't that prolific but even so.

Also, as Shar said, in a game called Elite, where one of the more prestigious things is meant to be achieving 'Elite' rank, if that, like big ship ownership, is rendered virtually meaningless then what is left?

 

[Whitehair]

I do Shad, but as I said above the integrity of Frontier and the gameworld do matter to me too, actually far more than how or why commander x, y or z got his/her battle 'conda. If I was a potential Elite customer now, considering/unsure whether or not to invest, a lot of the stuff on or near the top of the YouTube hits would not be a positive in that regard.

It's a purchase, not an investment.

Investment is when you expect to get a return (in money) on your outlay (in money).

Elite Dangerous is a piece of game software, not an opportunity to increase the amount of money in your bank account.

 

[Noctover]

If this was an MMO i'd agree, but i dont really care about the exploiters...Especially as it seems the majority of people on the forum always type "This is why i play in Solo".

Arguably, ED is more a solo game than an online one, by which point i dont care what the others do, if they want to exploit and rush to the end game, get board quickly and move on let them, dosent effect me.

And nope, never done an exploit in my life [up]

 

[Theodrid]

It's a purchase, not an investment.

Investment is when you expect to get a return (in money) on your outlay (in money).

Elite Dangerous is a piece of game software, not an opportunity to increase the amount of money in your bank account.

Oh for goodness sake, you know what I meant, don't be pedantic.

 

[BL1P]

I can't bounce back and forth between two fronts.

I don't see exploits for credits hurting anyone other than the exploiter themselves by shortening their own gaming experience. Novice Anacondas are not a threat to anyone, those people can play however they want.

However, I do see a point where Shar brought up exploiting for Elite rank. If there is a way to break the game to gain rank very quickly, then I might be swayed in my opinion that it doesn't hurt anyone but themselves. But, as I posted, I am not aware of any working exploits in the game to gain Elite rank? There ARE ummm "efficient" means of gaining rank through mistakes in FD's calculations, but I don't think it's fair to say that I used an exploit for my Exploration Elite because I did sightseeing missions.

What about the BGS, if a player could alter the BGS from credits gained from an exploit, say by stacking 20 credit donation missions over and over using the billions they made via credit exploits to alter the Influence of a player faction.

I feel that the credit exploits affect the game just as much as any other exploit.
I dont care what ship they get. I care what adverse effects the ill gotten gains can create.

 

[Omega Fighter]

Did i use stacking missions-Yes.
Did i use friendly bounty farming-Yes.

Do i think this is within valid gameplay-Yes.

 

[shadragon]

Did i use stacking missions-Yes.
Did i use friendly bounty farming-Yes.

Do i think this is within valid gameplay-Yes.

Right. And none of these is mandatory. I don't have to do them and don't.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

But then how get people the money to throw away 10 cutters and corvettes every day?

 

[ShimEnki]

This...

If there was some kind of PVP prize or competition(built in as part of the game) then I get it. But someone who is exploiting isn't hurting anyone but themselves(by shortening their overall game experience).

Thirded; and frankly who cares whos elite and whos not? Sounds petty to me. We play to enjoy ourselves not to gain self esteem from our ranking in comparison to others.

I could not care less if I tried who has 11 billion CRs and if they gained triple elite in 3 days.

We're done here, move along pilots.

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

What about the BGS, if a player could alter the BGS from credits gained from an exploit, say by stacking 20 credit donation missions over and over using the billions they made via credit exploits to alter the Influence of a player faction.

I feel that the credit exploits affect the game just as much as any other exploit.
I dont care what ship they get. I care what adverse effects the ill gotten gains can create.

I agree with your last sentence for sure. I don't know that I've seen/heard of problems with people deliberately going into a system with lots of cash and causing problems by doing donation missions. I am aware that people were using some BGS exploits to cause problems, and my impression was that those had been fixed.

I do see how it's POSSIBLE for someone with lots of cash to cause problems in the BGS, I'll give you that. I've just never seen it happen.

 

[Deadspin]

No, I'm sorry, I am not buying that, I am fully aware what an epxloit and what exploitation is, can you really say with a straight face that the ONLY exploit, (unintended use of game features/mechanics) in Elite Dangerous is the pips?

Lets expand on that. "Unintended use of game features/mechanics that give a player an unfair advantage over other players" is the whole definition of an exploit. In money making, Frontier has quashed all major exploits almost as soon as they pop up. If you've been playing long enough, I'm sure you remember the first iteration of the "Seeking Goods" traders, which was patched out within the week of it being found. Then there was the cargo selling issue that was able to be spammed for billions in minutes, that got patched out in the week it was found AND Frontier went through and reset the wallet balances of the most egregious offenders to their pre-exploit amounts (of course, they didn't do anything about ships already bought/outfitted, etc). They also did their best to break their own BGS to patch out Robigo/Sothis after the forums complained long enough about people making too much money too fast.

We, as a forum, have been over this dozens of times already. Having a fat wallet doesn't net you any advantage over another player. You can't buy engineer upgrades with a fat wallet, you still have to farm the mats just like everyone else. Sure, you can buy more ships but that doesn't increase your skill/rank.

Even rushing your way to Elite (like the first guy to get triple Elite, piggybacking a cap ship as it killed people in a CZ) doesn't give you an advantage over other players? Oh, access to the founders world you say? One stop shopping is not an advantage. If anything it's lazy and degrades the game. Hell, look at all of the people in a tizzy over the BGS work being done on the founders station. Oh my god, you mean they have to look around for parts now? Heaven forbid.

So, with all of that being said, until some conclusive tests are done on the weapon DPS output of Multi-crewed ships, claiming it as an outright exploit is asinine. An MC ship, engineered to the 9s, is still going to lose to a wing of engineered ships or to a single engineered ship with a better pilot. Those two pips don't mean a thing.

Yeah that's the only "exploit" ....

I mean apart from all the ones that FD have said themselves are exploits like combat logging

You don't get to define what an exploit is, the creators of the game do and they say it's an exploit in the game they made, therefore it is and nothing you "think" can change that

I didn't try to define it. I objectively looked at the so called "exploits" people are calling out and whether or not they provided an in-game advantage over other players. As I don't care if people combat log on me, I've never worried much about it. My e-peen or internet ego is not affected by someone running away from me, even if it involves using a broken mechanic to do so scott free.

 

[ShimEnki]

Reputation of the developer?

Oh come on ref, mega successful games such as Neverwinter and ESO have more gold sellers than the NY stock exchange and guess what? No one really cares!

I know I don't and I dump/support the game and its devs with a small fortune of $.

And for certain we don't hang around talking about their reputation with respect to exploits than have zero impact on PVE'ers ...Their reputation and EDs will always center on the playability, enjoyability, and bug/code corrections.

If others are advancing from a means that speeds things up and its available to one and all, we can chose to join them or not.

 

[Theodrid]

So, with all of that being said, until some conclusive tests are done on the weapon DPS output of Multi-crewed ships, claiming it as an outright exploit is asinine. An MC ship, engineered to the 9s, is still going to lose to a wing of engineered ships or to a single engineered ship with a better pilot. Those two pips don't mean a thing.

Hold on Deadspin, you brought the pips up, not me.

You said :-

Literally, the only clear cut possible "exploit" in this game is the extra pips and even that, as far as I've seen, hasn't been fully tested.

I replied with :-

No, I'm sorry, I am not buying that, I am fully aware what an epxloit and what exploitation is, can you really say with a straight face that the ONLY exploit, (unintended use of game features/mechanics) in Elite Dangerous is the pips?

The OP is about all exploits, not pips in particular, it is about the effect they have on Frontier's reputation, the BGS, PVP, the ranking system and much more.

Reputation of the developer?

Oh come on ref, mega successful games such as Neverwinter and ESO have more gold sellers than the NY stock exchange and guess what? No one really cares! I know I don't and I dump/support the game and its devs with a small fortune of $.

And for certain we don't hang around talking about their reputation with respect to exploits than have zero impact on PVE'ers ...Their reputation and EDs will always center on the playability, enjoyability, and bug/code corrections.

For me those things you list are intrinsically linked to the exploitability of a game in one way or another.

 

[Stealthie]

I am quite happy with the idea of voicing an opinion about exploits, and the people who use them, but I think it's entirely the responsibility of the developer to ensure that exploits are found and removed.
That's what beta-testing is for.
And, by "beta-testing" I mean PROPER beta-testing, where you pay people to work their way through lists of operations and do their best to expose flaws, and not the sort of "beta-testing" where you just get people to pay money so they can play in your sandbox for a few weeks before all the pleb's get let in.

A company shouldn't put things into a game deliberately (and ALL coding happens deliberately regardless of whether the results are predictable) and then penalise players for finding and availing themselves of those things.

it's kinda like building an athletics stadium with a 100m track that slopes downhill and then penalising all the athletes who set a fast time while running downhill.