Frontier. Please make a PVE mode to this game.

Well, why I hate the common 'git gud' condescending attitude, 'getting good' is the basic premise of Elite. From the very first elite to the last, with all the novels, short stories, in-game diaries and everything, it has been made perfectly clear: you are responsible for your survival, and if you just randomly do stuff you'll die. If you are greedy and dont use shields and armor, you may die. If you just go from A-B in a straight line without checking radar in SC, you may die. If you just boost and jump after being interdicted, you may die. If you point at everyone and everything without looking in the mirror, you'll probably die.

Thats simply the core of Elite. Noone would play the original and say "screw shields" and then complain about being killed. You use your brain and think, you plan, you pay attention and you learn to fly. Thats what Elite is supposed to be about. Often when some 'victim' posts a vid its like a parody of how to be the worst trader ever. Yet hordes of people show up and demand someone else does something about it. "Having a family and a life' is no reason not to occassionally check your radar. or, you know, actually move your ship when being attacked. Or put a shield on your trader even if it costs a percentage of your cr/hr. Nobody forces you to blindly stumble through anarchy/lowsec. It is so amazingly incredible super-easy to take care of yourself at some point it really is valid to say:"mate, get better."

To a certain extent this is true but for some of us that is not an option. I'm getting old. My reactions are getting slow. It is really not possible for me and those like me to get better than I am already. Just is not going to happen. Thankfully I don't have arthritis but otherwise I'm slowing down. So the cry of 'get good' and any other variant is just a tad annoying, no matter who says it or how well intended.
 
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Well, why I hate the common 'git gud' condescending attitude, 'getting good' is the basic premise of Elite. From the very first elite to the last, with all the novels, short stories, in-game diaries and everything, it has been made perfectly clear: you are responsible for your survival, and if you just randomly do stuff you'll die. If you are greedy and dont use shields and armor, you may die. If you just go from A-B in a straight line without checking radar in SC, you may die. If you just boost and jump after being interdicted, you may die. If you point at everyone and everything without looking in the mirror, you'll probably die.

Thats simply the core of Elite. Noone would play the original and say "screw shields" and then complain about being killed. You use your brain and think, you plan, you pay attention and you learn to fly. Thats what Elite is supposed to be about. Often when some 'victim' posts a vid its like a parody of how to be the worst trader ever. Yet hordes of people show up and demand someone else does something about it. "Having a family and a life' is no reason not to occassionally check your radar. or, you know, actually move your ship when being attacked. Or put a shield on your trader even if it costs a percentage of your cr/hr. Nobody forces you to blindly stumble through anarchy/lowsec. It is so amazingly incredible super-easy to take care of yourself at some point it really is valid to say:"mate, get better."

I would agree before Engineers came out, but today the difference between a player with 5 hours in the game and a player with 500 hours in the game is so vast that there isn't a great deal the former can do to their ship to improve their safety to enough of a degree to minimise the risk enough to be worth it. Intelligent tactics can of course be picked up regardless of time spent in the game.

However, my main issue with this line of argument is that PvP players constantly claim that what they desire is challenge, and yet also say that anybody with a brain can avoid them or survive. If the latter is true then where is the challenge in interdicting non-PvP builds at all? If it's so easy to avoid interdiction and attack then no good player will ever suffer from it, which means the only trade ships that a player will ever manage to interdict are necessarily players who aren't very good at the game, and where's the fun in killing such a player?
 
When the mobius forums are used to coordinate BGS attacks on PvP-groups' systems, that makes anyone flying in said group a valid and fair target.

No it does not. It's a private group. If you go there you follow the rules.

When you start with the 'I don't like how the game works, so I will break the rules' talk, you sound like a combat logger.
 
More 'git gud' arguments, joy of joys.

In so many of the "I got griefed" threads if the victim posts their load out it is insufficient for evading NPC's let alone a player killer. When they describe their tactics in a lot of those threads they made mistakes on a base level. Placing blame on the person who killed you and complaining about it instead of focusing on what you did wrong is pure garbage. Every single death I have suffered in this game was MY fault not the NPC's or players.
 
In so many of the "I got griefed" threads if the victim posts their load out it is insufficient for evading NPC's let alone a player killer. When they describe their tactics in a lot of those threads they made mistakes on a base level. Placing blame on the person who killed you and complaining about it instead of focusing on what you did wrong is pure garbage. Every single death I have suffered in this game was MY fault not the NPC's or players.

Do you have any examples?

And again this raises my issue: if good players will always be able to avoid attack and what you're looking for is challenge then why bother attacking anybody outside of pre-arranged battles and combat zones?
 
In addition to an enhancing (not game crippling) C&P, I wish we could have a bit more stealth ability in SC. Something along the lines of low speed=low detection signature, along with engineered units.
More challenge and more ability to evade/hide in open mode.
 
To a certain extent this is true but for some of us that is not an option. I'm getting old. My reactions are getting slow. It is really not possible for me and those like me to get better than I am already. Just is not going to happen. Thankfully I don't have arthritis but otherwise I'm slowing down. So the cry of 'get good' and any other variant is just a tad annoying, no matter who says it or how well intended.

I think that is more about the 'real space gitgud' comments. In most cases IMHO you can beat them before the interdiction starts:

1) Stay of the shipping lanes. When you are on the lane it is very hard to see who is going where, and whether there is a cmdr, because they are all one big blob blob on the radar. Once off the lanes ships become way clearer on the radar.
2) Target them all. If there is a human in a combat ship, turn and scan. If it is wanted, or has an FSDi, best take it safe.
3) Ships can only attack you from the rear. So when you are pointing an FDL that is looking at you, he cannot interdict you. So you can just stay still and spool the drive, while he has to fly around you. When he tries that, just keep pointing your ship at him as he turns.

None of this requires much 'twitch skills' or hand-eye- coordination, and most can be done with one hand while sipping a beer. The real problem starts when people dont take an active interest in their surroundings and are surprised when the interdiction starts. Rule of thumb: if you are surprised by an interdiction, you did something very, very wrong. :) Now, with good reflexes, coordination, experience and a decent ship you can still make it out alive versus a souped-up human, but this situation should be avoided. But to be honest, my multirole Cobra mk4 is pretty much toast probably as its slower and less agile than pretty much everyone, and can get mass-locked by a wet towel.

I would agree before Engineers came out, but today the difference between a player with 5 hours in the game and a player with 500 hours in the game is so vast that there isn't a great deal the former can do to their ship to improve their safety to enough of a degree to minimise the risk enough to be worth it. Intelligent tactics can of course be picked up regardless of time spent in the game.

However, my main issue with this line of argument is that PvP players constantly claim that what they desire is challenge, and yet also say that anybody with a brain can avoid them or survive. If the latter is true then where is the challenge in interdicting non-PvP builds at all? If it's so easy to avoid interdiction and attack then no good player will ever suffer from it, which means the only trade ships that a player will ever manage to interdict are necessarily players who aren't very good at the game, and where's the fun in killing such a player?

For the first bit, if you insist I can sealclub some beginners in a non-modded ship to show you are wrong? ;) For the second bit: dont be confused, there is no such thing as 'PvP players'. Just like I am a PvE player, but dont associate much with most PvE'ers in this topic. Some want a challenge, and play among other PvP'ers in tournaments, or patrol versus souped-up griefers and such. Others want a theoretical challenge: ship A versus ship B isnt a pre-decided event, it'll depend on the player skill. So when you win, you've won by skill, not by ship. But sure, you have a decent guess that a novice T9 trader may not have the skills required. Then you have those who want no challenge at all, and prefer stomping on new players in cheap ships with their modded cutters. The first group is pretty cool, the second is neutral and the last are pretty lame.
 
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To a certain extent this is true but for some of us that is not an option. I'm getting old. My reactions are getting slow. It is really not possible for me and those like me to get better than I am already.

So... maybe this isn't the game for you?

Which isn't an insult. I can't keep up with my son in Halo... I look like a ranked idiot wandering around, while he's talking on his cellphone, eating chips, and glancing at the screen every 20 seconds to kill me with a single headshot.

It's either age, or it's just that I'm not good at it. My solution has been Halo Isn't the Game For Me.
 
In addition to an enhancing (not game crippling) C&P, I wish we could have a bit more stealth ability in SC. Something along the lines of low speed=low detection signature, along with engineered units.
More challenge and more ability to evade/hide in open mode.

MB and DB for example would love to do that to, the former wrote about it and the latter talked about it. Its on the very big pile of 'stuff we'd love to do'. :p
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Some players dont mind PvP, but dont like it when other players can have supermodded cutters attack Sideys. Why should they be forced to be play in a restricted population game mode?
Some players dont mind PvP, as long as there is a clear in-game reason. Why should they be forced to be play in a restricted population game mode?
Some players dont blabla. Why should they be forced to be play in a restricted population game mode?

The reason why you should play in a restricted poulation game mode (which is, bwt, a choice, noone forced PG on anyone) is because, as you put it so succintly earlier, these are the game modes you get to pick from. I can understand why everyone wants FD to make a special game mode for their preferred ruleset, but I am sure you can also work out why that is unlikely to happen. Which is also why FD has suggested a few ways to reward Open, and plays with ideas for C&P in Open, but has not proposed any Open PvE mode.

Indeed to all three of your questions - why should they? The reason is that there is only one game mode with an unlimited population.

It remains to be seen whether Frontier will offer another game mode - they are certainly aware of the demand for one - maybe they're pinning their hopes on the karma system to improve Open.

As to "FD has suggested a few ways to reward Open" - I'm aware of one (the Open Powerplay merit multiplier - that only benefits the Power, not the player) - what are the others?
 
Indeed to all three of your questions - why should they? The reason is that there is only one game mode with an unlimited population.


As to "FD has suggested a few ways to reward Open" - I'm aware of one (the Open Powerplay merit multiplier - that only benefits the Power, not the player) - what are the others?

I'll tell you why: because FD will not create an unlimited number of modes. I can write different rulesets all day long and find a fair number of people to agree with that. Your idea of a perfect open PvE will not be other people's idea of a perfect PvE mode. Its a never-ending story if you want to please everyone. Ofcourse, if your goal is to please yourself and whomever happens to agree, then you can request that. And hopefully understand why that is problematic.

Oh, the other one was a version of the PP one, but for CGs.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I'll tell you why: because FD will not create an unlimited number of modes. I can write different rulesets all day long and find a fair number of people to agree with that. Your idea of a perfect open PvE will not be other people's idea of a perfect PvE mode. Its a never-ending story if you want to please everyone. Ofcourse, if your goal is to please yourself and whomever happens to agree, then you can request that. And hopefully understand why that is problematic.

Oh, the other one was a version of the PP one, but for CGs.

I expect that Frontier would come up with a rule-set that would please most of the PvE players, most of the time.

Can you remember which Dev posted it and roughly when?
 
So... maybe this isn't the game for you?

Which isn't an insult. I can't keep up with my son in Halo... I look like a ranked idiot wandering around, while he's talking on his cellphone, eating chips, and glancing at the screen every 20 seconds to kill me with a single headshot.

It's either age, or it's just that I'm not good at it. My solution has been Halo Isn't the Game For Me.

It is the only game I play or have ever played. This is the game for me. I'm just not going to get much better at it and I find the cries of 'get good' to be intensely irritating.

Of course your argument is one that can be applied across the board and the logical conclusion of said argument is that maybe this is not the game of most people who currently play.
 
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I expect that Frontier would come up with a rule-set that would please most of the PvE players, most of the time.

Can you remember which Dev posted it and roughly when?

I expect they wont, lets wait and see. :) It was some time (+- two months?) after the holy handgrenade post, and it was a response in a topic, not a start to a topic itself. It sounded, IIRC, more like 'an idea that I am toying in my head with' rather than 'an idea we've 'formally' discussed with the team', but still. I think/guess/imagine it was in a topic where it was brought up something had already been Open only in the past.

Probably not very useful, but its the best my dutch memory can do. :p
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I expect they wont, lets wait and see. :) It was some time (+- two months?) after the holy handgrenade post, and it was a response in a topic, not a start to a topic itself. It sounded, IIRC, more like 'an idea that I am toying in my head with' rather than 'an idea we've 'formally' discussed with the team', but still.

Probably not very useful, but its the best my dutch memory can do. :p

Indeed.

.... and thanks, I'll go hunting....
 
I expect that Frontier would come up with a rule-set that would please most of the PvE players, most of the time.

Can you remember which Dev posted it and roughly when?

Would you be content if FD just made an Open-CoOp group, with a set of rules and volunteer moderators?

No new mechanics only a set of rules.
 
Every possible mode is a PVE mode. There is almost no PVP even in Open. Not sure what the OP is getting at?
 
Complaining is perfectly fine, but the amount of insults thrown at PVP players for simply playing the game (I don't mean griefing) was ridiculous and the ones that get banned are the victims instead of the perpetrator.

There are those with equally temperamental issues on the PVP side, no doubt, but the amount of friends I had to watch switch from Code to SDC more or less had something to do with the forum. Some are clearly too eager for this forum but not all of them. Not just Code, many other PvP player groups share this sentiment.

That being said, the forum is getting more inclusive, which I will commend.

I'll be honest. Can you please link a post where someone shames a PvPer for being a PvPer in an of itself? I found that insults (veiled or otherwise) against PvPers tend to fly when said PvPers openly try to defend attacking unwilling targets with arguments such as "it's in the game" or the old "git good" argument. In other words - no one minds when PvPers seek other PvPers out. Heck, I've seen posts commending proper pirates for, well, proper piracy (the kind where attempts are made to get the cargo, not the kill). But as soon as PvPers start using phrases like "carebares" or "git good" or "learn to XYZ" things do get heated, yes. But I've never seen a post where someone writes "I like PvP" and the response is "well, sod off then!"...

And finally, it's hard for me to see the PvP argument sometimes, other than a veiled cry of "we want more targets to shoot at". I'm sorry for saying so, but if PvPers are interested in PvP against each other (i.e. willing PvP-oriented folk), then what do they care so much if PvE-focused people are in solo, private or (in this case) some yet-to-be-seen PvE mode? No one's proposing to take away your toys. Heck, I'd ague that the ideas behind a C&P system might affect free-form PvP more than unwilling people leaving Open...
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Would you be content if FD just made an Open-CoOp group, with a set of rules and volunteer moderators?

No new mechanics only a set of rules.

I would, I can't speak for anyone else.

I have proposed as much previously - a mode with a simple rule-set that would discourage PvP (while not changing the damage model) and reimburse players attacked / destroyed by players *completely* (not just rebuy).

I posted it previously in this thread:

I'd settle for a PvP-discouraged game mode, something like the following (which would not involve changing the damage model per se):

1) PvP damage / destruction fully reimbursed to the target (including all ship contents that would normally be lost on destruction), i.e. no financial penalty to being attacked / destroyed by another player;
2) PvP attackers kicked to Open on next instance change after the attack took place - length of suspension from Open-PvE dependent on previous transgressions; account based;
3) Heavy Pilots' Federation punitive division response to PvP attacker (near instant) - attacker either destroyed or changes instance - see 2);
4) Players cannot interdict players; if a player interdiction is attempted, interdictor drops to normal space (i.e. changes instance, goto 2)), interdictee sees "Interdiction Won";
5) Players cannot follow player wakes of any kind (unless in a wing);
6) Players cannot use hatch breakers on players - attempt to do so results in 2) and 3).
 
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