ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing Pt.2

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

Maybe not 25m/h, but he has right.
Mining money generally IS too easy, we can't make all mechanics for people, which have 3 hours per week to play. Sorry. Carrier with all services cost...20m? So even with this cap (IMO too low, but again- generally he has right) it require 1 hour weekly.

Sorry but not even close. My carrier doesn't have all services enabled and currently only jumping around the bubble a couple of times a week and costs me 26M+ per week. The cap on earnings is probably right at about 100M/hr for combat, 50-75M/hr for mining/trading/explo, but setting it anywhere below that is just going to be an unfair limitation on both new players and players who have less time to put in. No new player would EVER be able to achieve a Fleet Carrier at 25M/hour without playing for 200 hours at maximum bank per hour, that's only to buy the basic carrier, not the services that go with it, or the several billion you need to earn to buy and outfit the fleet of ships you plan to put on it, it makes the whole thing pointless for anyone who can't put 10 hours per week or more into the game. You might want grindy realism, if so, don't use the fast and easy ways to make money, use the grindy ones, some people need a way to be able to achieve things in the game faster or with slightly less effort. We need more people playing the game, not less because it becomes too much of a ball ache to actually do anything. 50M/hr is probably about right as a /hr cap for general stuff, with opportunities in CG's to earn more perhaps, allowing more casual players the opportunity to get a boost from community play. You could also mess around with the amount /hr you can earn in solo vs open, but then they'd have to sort out the crime and punishment system for that to be viable. I mean, it wouldn't be hard to lift the 2M bounty limit on players, or make noteriety for player killers stick around for a lot longer and for bounties on player killing to stick to the player, rather than the ship, but for some reason FDev seem to like gankers...

 

[Hellrider]

"if you think, that money is too easy in game, just don't use the best ways"
Great solution bro, really, with this logic we can talk "too good upgraded ships aren't problem, just don't use it", or "if pvp is too grindy use nonengineered ships"
And pls, read whole comment, not only part.
"Maybe not 25m/h, but he has right. "
MAYBE NOT 25 mean, that 25m/h would be too hardcore setting, not too easy...And I don't change mind, generally making money in game is too easy, and I don't care, that little johny with few hours per week can't buy carrier. Little andrew have only 1h per month, so he should earn 500m/h, and even with it it means year to earn cash on carrier.
PS: Not all players need shiny FC, and not all players should have it, in galaxy is literally more carriers than coriolis starports. Fdev's bad, that they try fix it too late, when hordes of people farm cash, especially on mining. Now all people can talk "this is unfair, before it people could did it in week".
Now we see big problem.
Any ship other than big3? 300-400m.
Carrier? With services 6000m.
1 cap mean, that ships are too cheap, and carrier is "average" milestone.
Other cap, which can change ships in proper milestones will change carriers in stuff avaliable after 1-3years of playing (and it should look like it)
And this is main problem, for long time first scenario was true, but it can't blockade attempts of fix it for new players, talking that old players could use 1, 2,3 and 19481 goldrush is literally blockade of any balance.


But yes, 50 cap would be ok. it still mean 300hrs of "the best" activity for carrier and bunch of ships (and ofc. more, cause nearly nobody spam 1 activity for hundreds hours).

 

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

Thing is, this game isn't about me or you, it's about everyone who plays it. Making something completely unreachable for some players, doesn't do FDev any favours at all. My suggestion that if you don't like earning money too quickly, then you shouldn't use that method, is all you're gunna get, because I'm never going to advocate we cut our player base in half by removing players ability to ever achieve certain things within the game and I doubt FDev will either.

Some of us complete the Empire grind in a night, others take a month and they're happy to do so, some of us grinded mining for a few days to buy an FC, some of us, took longer because we did other things in the game like BGS, or the Fed Grind, or some exploring, as well as saving up for the carrier. I've been playing 4 years on and off, on two different platforms and I've only just bothered to unlock the Corvette! Some players head for that in their first month.

Everyone is different and there's literally zero point in a game developer making a game too difficult for a player to actually play or enjoy it. Balanced means balanced, not bowing down to certain players with a niche for killing Thargoids, or certain players who want ship ownership to be like running an old banger car that breaks down every ten minutes. Realism can only go so far before it becomes a game for a limited select few players and I hate to tell you this, but space sims are a niche game in themselves, not everyone wants to fly a spaceship, so this game already has an uphill battle for players. I'm not trying to change your mind by the way, I'm telling you how it is. Take the realism too far, you turn off too many players. I personally would LOVE for my Anaconda to suddenly develop a random fault with the frameshift drive and I need to call the 'Frameshift Throwers', or a mechanic in my squadron to come and fix it before I can continue, but that kind of realism will turn some players completely off the game, just as the earnings cap will if it's set too low.

It actually sounds like we're in agreement about most of this, we've just got a little bit of crossed wires.

 

[Ettanin]

Thing is, this game isn't about me or you, it's about everyone who plays it. Making something completely unreachable for some players, doesn't do FDev any favours at all. My suggestion that if you don't like earning money too quickly, then you shouldn't use that method, is all you're gunna get, because I'm never going to advocate we cut our player base in half by removing players ability to ever achieve certain things within the game and I doubt FDev will either.

Some of us complete the Empire grind in a night, others take a month and they're happy to do so, some of us grinded mining for a few days to buy an FC, some of us, took longer because we did other things in the game like BGS, or the Fed Grind, or some exploring, as well as saving up for the carrier. I've been playing 4 years on and off, on two different platforms and I've only just bothered to unlock the Corvette! Some players head for that in their first month.

Have you thought about the other side of the spectrum? Those that especially, and also most likely due to the current situation, have a lot of time at hand? Making things too easy harms the longevity of the game for those.

Making the game entirely catering to casuals that may or may not spend two or three hours a week makes the game for those frequently playing too easy. Cutting the playerbase in half again.

The answer to cater to both may lie in diminishing return (or some sort of 'resting bonus'), making you earn less the more time you put into the game consecutively without pause, but that feels patronizing to most players and punishing to those that can spare the effort.

Not everyone actually needs a fleet carrier. You can easily do almost everything without it.

 

[aRJay]

Doing that, would mean those who only get to play a few hours per week, would be massively disadvantaged (More so than they already are) to those who play every day for several hours. So many suggestions in this thread by people who want the game to work for them and their method/style/frequency of pay, very few seem to be considering the caveats of their proposed actions on other players who may not want to do the same things, or may not have the same amount of play time. I play most days and usually for more than an hour or two, but one of the Captains in our squadron only gets to play for about an hour or two per day and some days, not at all. If/when this whole Covid situation goes away, I may end up working away during the week again and when I'm at home, playing a game, even one I love, is going to be fairly low on my priority list. As things stand right now, if that happens, I'll have to decommission my carrier altogether, because I'll basically have to go mine for an hour, or go bounty hunt for several hours, to even fund that, let alone do anything else in game. I think the general gist of 'skill should earn more money' is what FDev are shooting for, they've not quite hit it yet, as laser mining still pays more than core because of the efficiency bonus and combat still pays less than both, yet requires the most skill, the carries most risk, the most financial outlay to succeed, etc. Limiting earnings to 25M cr/hour would cripple the game completely for so many.

The thing is that those who have more time to play are always going to have an advantage in any game, even if there is no equipment etcetera to unlock so everyone has the same stuff the player with more time in the game will have more experience and practise which will give them an advantage unless the game is purely random.

 

[CMDR HollowPointPC]

Have you thought about the other side of the spectrum? Those that especially, and also most likely due to the current situation, have a lot of time at hand? Making things too easy harms the longevity of the game for those.

Making the game entirely catering to casuals that may or may not spend two or three hours a week makes the game for those frequently playing too easy. Cutting the playerbase in half again.

The answer to cater to both may lie in diminishing return (or some sort of 'resting bonus'), making you earn less the more time you put into the game consecutively without pause, but that feels patronizing to most players and punishing to those that can spare the effort.

Not everyone actually needs a fleet carrier. You can easily do almost everything without it.

Yes and the other side of the spectrum is how deep the game is, with more depth coming in Odyssey, there are a billion and one things to do in this game. If you play it 10 hours a day though, you're going to run out of things to do... that's your fault (I do this, so I'm not aiming at you) much quicker than someone who plays a few hours a day, or only a few hours a week, who can span the game out for months, years and not run out of things to do. That doesn't at any point mean that any aspect of the game should be made impossible (harder is fine, provided it doesn't get so hard the majority won't bother, impossible, is stupid) to satisfy that niche minority who play all the time.

People need to not get so hung up on the fleet carrier example, it was literally an example of something, in fact the best example of something that would be made completely impossible for a more casual player to be able to achieve if the cap were limited to 25m/hour. The game should continue to have plenty of depth, but another example might be a battle ready Cutter, easily 1bn credits in that. At 25m/hour, the player would have to play for 40 hours, to kit out ONE Cutter for battle, at 4 hours per week, that's 10 weeks and that's doing literally NOTHING but banking maximum cash, so no BGS, no Thargoid killing (It pays more, but the risk is higher, the time taken is considerably more and it takes a lot of practice to get good, so a casual player is unlikely to make big bank from that activity anyway). I agree, that the whole 300 - 400M/hr thing with laser mining was ridiculous and it needed to be cut, which it has been, but go too far, cut too deep, you really do lose players. Games don't usually live forever, this one keeps expanding, if you go all out and 'complete' the game in a few weeks and have nothing left to do, that's on you, not FDev and not new players, or casual players. I know people who got burned out mining for a Fleet Carrier when you could get 985M/t for Painite and they were using a Cutter to do it!

The thing is that those who have more time to play are always going to have an advantage in any game, even if there is no equipment etcetera to unlock so everyone has the same stuff the player with more time in the game will have more experience and practise which will give them an advantage unless the game is purely random.

Exactly right, so why make it even harder for a new/casual player to actually achieve things in game? Why give those of us who play regularly, already have a fleet of ships, a carrier and billions in the bank even more of an advantage by preventing new and casual players from ever having any chance of achieving the same level? The fact is, there's a 'level' that most serious players, even if their play time is limited, will want to reach, it might be a Battle Cutter, it might be a carrier, it might just be a BGS team that works like clockwork and takes over a system they want in the blink of an eye, they might be a PVP'er, having done everything in the game at least once, maybe they get their kicks from the game now fighting other CMDRs, you force them to only earn 25M/cr per hour to fund that new A rated fully engineered FDL, they might just say they can't be bothered. I know at least 2 players like that, they have billions in the bank right now, but given time when they need credits again, if it's that same old grind all over again, but this time it's longer and harder, just to build a new ship to fight in, what would be the point?

 

[CMDR RuIncognito]

"if you think, that money is too easy in game, just don't use the best ways"
Great solution bro, really, with this logic we can talk "too good upgraded ships aren't problem, just don't use it", or "if pvp is too grindy use nonengineered ships"
And pls, read whole comment, not only part.
"Maybe not 25m/h, but he has right. "
MAYBE NOT 25 mean, that 25m/h would be too hardcore setting, not too easy...And I don't change mind, generally making money in game is too easy, and I don't care, that little johny with few hours per week can't buy carrier. Little andrew have only 1h per month, so he should earn 500m/h, and even with it it means year to earn cash on carrier.
PS: Not all players need shiny FC, and not all players should have it, in galaxy is literally more carriers than coriolis starports. Fdev's bad, that they try fix it too late, when hordes of people farm cash, especially on mining. Now all people can talk "this is unfair, before it people could did it in week".
Now we see big problem.
Any ship other than big3? 300-400m.
Carrier? With services 6000m.
1 cap mean, that ships are too cheap, and carrier is "average" milestone.
Other cap, which can change ships in proper milestones will change carriers in stuff avaliable after 1-3years of playing (and it should look like it)
And this is main problem, for long time first scenario was true, but it can't blockade attempts of fix it for new players, talking that old players could use 1, 2,3 and 19481 goldrush is literally blockade of any balance.


But yes, 50 cap would be ok. it still mean 300hrs of "the best" activity for carrier and bunch of ships (and ofc. more, cause nearly nobody spam 1 activity for hundreds hours).

So I read all your frank delirium and do not understand one important thing. Why are you such a nerf supporter? I would say a zealous fighter for this idea. Are you so pathetic in real life that you need to be better at the game just because you sit in it every day for 15 hours, going only to the shower? The game must change! Change for the better ... there is already too much content in the game, it should be more accessible. Accessibility is ensured by loans. 150kk / hour is the normal state of affairs now. Because the ship must be assembled, engineered and then used to fly. This model I'm talking about exists in AAA subscription games. The model in which everything started from 100k / h. And it logically comes to 100KK / hour. Because having a bunch of carriers is not a problem. Or the fact that people have a lot of ships .... There is already a sea of content where it can be applied .... But give you pain and suffering ... I'm cooler because I play 15 hours a day. If you want to be better, go to the arena and be. And leave the miners alone, we have our own game in which I want to earn 150 KK / hour per hour. Just because this is a game in which I want to fly an aircraft carrier with my friends and not worry. And just go in your free time, fly to the war and smash everyone there, smash the Thargoids, but without a stick of adjustment. Calmly help an empire or a federation to build something. This game can be great for everyone .... only people like you are constantly whining that something too easily cannot really enjoy the game.
Oh yes, the release of two of the elite's greatest analogues is on the way. So such actions by fdev will simply give the portfolio of players there. My friends and I have already set their sights on one of the projects.

 

[Maymo]

So I read all your frank delirium and do not understand one important thing. Why are you such a nerf supporter?

Because for some of us the frequent buffs that FD have added no longer make any sense in the ED galaxy as it stands today and is no longer the game we’ve put money into over several years...

If FD are going to buff activities to better suit those who only play once a week that’s absolutely fine by me, but that’s no longer the game they originally built so they’re going to have to change a bunch of other things like engineering, ship prices, travel times and Powerplay if they want the game to make any kind of sense...

...as i don’t see them doing that it’s easier to advocate for them to buff/nerf various things in the game.

FD stated that they want to preserve the longevity of the game, changing BH so that a starter Sidewinder can earn a T6 in one kill is not the logical way to do that in my opinion. So I speak up...

...because that’s no longer the game I’ve enjoyed for years. I don’t want to fly in a galaxy like that and I probably won’t enjoy walking in one either come to think of it.

 

[Scoob101]

If FD are going to buff activities to better suit those who only play once a week that’s absolutely fine by me, but that’s no longer the game they originally built so they’re going to have to change a bunch of other things like engineering, ship prices, travel times and Powerplay if they want the game to make any kind of sense...

I agree with your sentiments, but I dont think that the existing mechanics of the game easily support achieving this, and I also think that Frontier do not have the appetite to modify that state of affairs in any significant way.

IMO, the rebalance will exclusively consist of server-side tweaks to things like payouts for activities and the purchase cost of ships, which will leave a number of long term players unsatisfied.

But it will probably be plenty good enough for the new ones enticed in by Odyssey. Which appears to be the primary motive behind doing this work now.

 

[CMDR RuIncognito]

Because for some of us the frequent buffs that FD have added no longer make any sense in the ED galaxy as it stands today and is no longer the game we’ve put money into over several years...

If FD are going to buff activities to better suit those who only play once a week that’s absolutely fine by me, but that’s no longer the game they originally built so they’re going to have to change a bunch of other things like engineering, ship prices, travel times and Powerplay if they want the game to make any kind of sense...

...as i don’t see them doing that it’s easier to advocate for them to buff/nerf various things in the game.

FD stated that they want to preserve the longevity of the game, changing BH so that a starter Sidewinder can earn a T6 in one kill is not the logical way to do that in my opinion. So I speak up...

...because that’s no longer the game I’ve enjoyed for years. I don’t want to fly in a galaxy like that and I probably won’t enjoy walking in one either come to think of it.

So you just don’t like this game, what matters to you is what you played and achieved, but you don’t want to move on to new victories ... you want everyone to go your way ... this is the final path ... and about wetting money ... I have not been playing for very long, but I have a lot of things and for what I bought. I love the beautiful exterior of ships

 

[Morbad]

No new player would EVER be able to achieve a Fleet Carrier at 25M/hour without playing for 200 hours at maximum bank per hour, that's only to buy the basic carrier, not the services that go with it, or the several billion you need to earn to buy and outfit the fleet of ships you plan to put on it, it makes the whole thing pointless for anyone who can't put 10 hours per week or more into the game.

I'd argue that fleet carriers didn't improve the game and that they shouldn't be a necessity.

if you don't like earning money too quickly, then you shouldn't use that method

It's a persistent-world multiplayer-only setting. What others have radically alters the game for those that engage with it beyond the most superficial level.

Everyone is different and there's literally zero point in a game developer making a game too difficult for a player to actually play or enjoy it.

Challenge is part and parcel of enjoyment for many players.

The game has been making it more difficult for me to suspend my disbelief, or become immersed in the setting it attempts to present, the easier it's become. It's been sacrificing internal consistency and the pursuit of it's original vision in favor of broader accessibility, to the detriment of many.

If you play it 10 hours a day though, you're going to run out of things to do...

No, I'm not.

I could have played ED 1.4 or even 2.0 for ten-thousand hours before it would have begun to bore me. It's what they've been adding that has detracted from my ability to extract entertainment from the game. Too much 'content' (and too little quality control) serving as a barrier to gameplay.

 

[CMDR BlackFyre]

Sorry but not even close. My carrier doesn't have all services enabled and currently only jumping around the bubble a couple of times a week and costs me 26M+ per week. The cap on earnings is probably right at about 100M/hr for combat, 50-75M/hr for mining/trading/explo, but setting it anywhere below that is just going to be an unfair limitation on both new players and players who have less time to put in. No new player would EVER be able to achieve a Fleet Carrier at 25M/hour without playing for 200 hours at maximum bank per hour, that's only to buy the basic carrier, not the services that go with it, or the several billion you need to earn to buy and outfit the fleet of ships you plan to put on it, it makes the whole thing pointless for anyone who can't put 10 hours per week or more into the game. You might want grindy realism, if so, don't use the fast and easy ways to make money, use the grindy ones, some people need a way to be able to achieve things in the game faster or with slightly less effort. We need more people playing the game, not less because it becomes too much of a ball ache to actually do anything. 50M/hr is probably about right as a /hr cap for general stuff, with opportunities in CG's to earn more perhaps, allowing more casual players the opportunity to get a boost from community play. You could also mess around with the amount /hr you can earn in solo vs open, but then they'd have to sort out the crime and punishment system for that to be viable. I mean, it wouldn't be hard to lift the 2M bounty limit on players, or make noteriety for player killers stick around for a lot longer and for bounties on player killing to stick to the player, rather than the ship, but for some reason FDev seem to like gankers...

While i Agree to a good part there is some stuff i dont really agree on, Like for example the "dont use the fast and easy ways..." but overall i agree there is a certain point at which people will just stop playing if they dont make progress, that is pretty much while i havent finished a old Need for speed i still have laying around. So it shouldt take years even with much time ingame but it also shouldnt be a 1 or 2 week thing i think sure even if you have (going over the top for example to show my point) 50 BIllions you may not have all engineers unlocked but a lot of exitement in the game comes from actually having to bother with money at least for me. Having things like a FC should definetly be Endgame but it shouldnt need just a few weeks to reach it neither should it take several years

 

[CardioTherapy]

IMO...
Best at trade = Cutter
Best at Combat = Vette
Best at Exploration = Phantom
Best mission runner = Python

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion too.

Best at laser mining = cutter
Best at core mining = python
best at exploration = anaconda / phantom
best at fleet carrier load/ unload (short distance cargo) = T9
best at non cargo mission runner = courier

 

[Maymo]

So you just don’t like this game, what matters to you is what you played and achieved, but you don’t want to move on to new victories ... you want everyone to go your way ... this is the final path ... and about wetting money ... I have not been playing for very long, but I have a lot of things and for what I bought. I love the beautiful exterior of ships

I’m......not even sure what half of that even means.

But I can assure you that I do enjoy the game, I wouldn’t be attempting to address the developers (using you as a medium) if I didn’t.

 

[CMDR BlackFyre]

"if you think, that money is too easy in game, just don't use the best ways"
Great solution bro, really, with this logic we can talk "too good upgraded ships aren't problem, just don't use it", or "if pvp is too grindy use nonengineered ships"
And pls, read whole comment, not only part.
"Maybe not 25m/h, but he has right. "
MAYBE NOT 25 mean, that 25m/h would be too hardcore setting, not too easy...And I don't change mind, generally making money in game is too easy, and I don't care, that little johny with few hours per week can't buy carrier. Little andrew have only 1h per month, so he should earn 500m/h, and even with it it means year to earn cash on carrier.
PS: Not all players need shiny FC, and not all players should have it, in galaxy is literally more carriers than coriolis starports. Fdev's bad, that they try fix it too late, when hordes of people farm cash, especially on mining. Now all people can talk "this is unfair, before it people could did it in week".
Now we see big problem.
Any ship other than big3? 300-400m.
Carrier? With services 6000m.
1 cap mean, that ships are too cheap, and carrier is "average" milestone.
Other cap, which can change ships in proper milestones will change carriers in stuff avaliable after 1-3years of playing (and it should look like it)
And this is main problem, for long time first scenario was true, but it can't blockade attempts of fix it for new players, talking that old players could use 1, 2,3 and 19481 goldrush is literally blockade of any balance.


But yes, 50 cap would be ok. it still mean 300hrs of "the best" activity for carrier and bunch of ships (and ofc. more, cause nearly nobody spam 1 activity for hundreds hours).

I agree that not everyone needs a FC but i think everyone should be able to have it, and i know many places are clutered by FC but i think that the reason for that is also that Fleet Carriers are crossplay for all i know, and it shouldnt take years to get something, sure a new player with a few hours having one would be ridiculous since i also think you shouldnt get it in a few days or weeks but several years seems a bit to long for me. If people get money to slow i feel like the game will stop being fun for many.

 

[CMDR RuIncognito]

Best at laser mining = cutter
Best at core mining = python
best at exploration = anaconda / phantom
best at fleet carrier load/ unload (short distance cargo) = T9
best at non cargo mission runner = courier

Best at laser mining = cutter
Best at core mining = clipper
best at exploration = anaconda / dbx
best at fleet carrier load/ unload (short distance cargo) = cutter
best at non cargo mission runner = dbx
best at cargo\pass missions = python

 

[CardioTherapy]

Best at laser mining = cutter
Best at core mining = clipper
best at exploration = anaconda / dbx
best at fleet carrier load/ unload (short distance cargo) = cutter
best at non cargo mission runner = dbx
best at cargo\pass missions = python

Python is far better at core mining.

 

[CMDR RuIncognito]

Python is far better at core mining.

clipper more agile

 

[Hellrider]

I agree that not everyone needs a FC but i think everyone should be able to have it, and i know many places are clutered by FC but i think that the reason for that is also that Fleet Carriers are crossplay for all i know, and it shouldnt take years to get something, sure a new player with a few hours having one would be ridiculous since i also think you shouldnt get it in a few days or weeks but several years seems a bit to long for me. If people get money to slow i feel like the game will stop being fun for many.

Several? Maybe, but 1 year sounds fair for mobile base, which can transport whole your fleet and friends 500ly away in 15 minutes

 

[Nugstar]

Doing that, would mean those who only get to play a few hours per week, would be massively disadvantaged (More so than they already are) to those who play every day for several hours. So many suggestions in this thread by people who want the game to work for them and their method/style/frequency of pay, very few seem to be considering the caveats of their proposed actions on other players who may not want to do the same things, or may not have the same amount of play time. I play most days and usually for more than an hour or two, but one of the Captains in our squadron only gets to play for about an hour or two per day and some days, not at all. If/when this whole Covid situation goes away, I may end up working away during the week again and when I'm at home, playing a game, even one I love, is going to be fairly low on my priority list. As things stand right now, if that happens, I'll have to decommission my carrier altogether, because I'll basically have to go mine for an hour, or go bounty hunt for several hours, to even fund that, let alone do anything else in game. I think the general gist of 'skill should earn more money' is what FDev are shooting for, they've not quite hit it yet, as laser mining still pays more than core because of the efficiency bonus and combat still pays less than both, yet requires the most skill, the carries most risk, the most financial outlay to succeed, etc. Limiting earnings to 25M cr/hour would cripple the game completely for so many.

Yep - you cannot please everyone.

I'm looking at progression for newer players (not myself) to be in balance with ship progression and credit earning. If you cannot play for 1 hour per week (to fund carrier upkeep) then you're not really an active player anyway.

Let's not forget that the game used to pay far far less per hour for CMDRs in the past, and the game wasn't in anyway crippled. It just meant that progress was slower.

I think we can all agree that mining pays far too much for the risk and skill involved. And bounty hunting still pays pennies compared to it.

That's not balance.