Game loses something by not forcing Open play

[Tyr07]

With the game as it is, I don't think there is any reason for me to enter Open mode. But the game as it is, is clearly unfinished.
If there were actual interesting interaction between players, cooperative behaviour, shared missions, that sort of thing, I might be tempted.
It might then have some advantages to balance its disadvantages.
I don't want to be shut out of any chance of playing a future interesting multi-player mode just because of my decisions about the current state of it.



With respect, that isn't what you said.
You said: "A lot of angry people at the thought over not being able to build up in solo play then gank on open."

"Play on open" and "gank on open" are not the same thing.

Well, build up in solo play and gank / on open was implied, I'm not trying to change what I said, I fully ment it to imply to build up in solo, then gank on open.

You have a very valid point, when there are more features for co-operative play introduced later, yes, I can see other reasons to enter open mode. But this is future talk. What we have right now is quite different.

I think it's important to focus on the now. It's like when the government takes away freedoms and tells you it's for a better future. Are you always convinced? It might happen, sure, but I'm concerned with now.

 

[Kaelan]

Soooo let me see if I have this right. Traders should get together in groups so that pirates can get together in groups and attack them and kill them and rob them... I don't see what is in it for the traders.

Higher Profit... (see earlier post)

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

... It's like when the government takes away freedoms and tells you it's for a better future. Are you always convinced? It might happen, sure, but I'm concerned with now.

I hear Godwin coming round the corner...

 

[FX2K]

Ok lets look at it another way...

• Game loses something by not forcing Open play

Game gains something by not forcing Open play... the possibility of solo players joining the online mode, increasing the overall population of online all.
Its lonely away from the starting stations, very lonely.. no different to solo IMO, so if more people switched, maybe it would be a little less loney... maybe, but maybe not.
Take away the switch and you take away those players moving over.

 

[murraypaul]

But I also don't think it's fair if there are new players playing in open mode, taking the risks that come with it in their cobra or whatever, and you finally come out of solo mode with an anaconda or something, turf the living crap out of the little guy.

How much intersection do you think there is between:
a) People who get their jollies beating up the little guy in a vastly overmatch ship, and
b) People who are going to trade/explore/do missions in solo for long enough to buy and equip an Anaconda?

 

[Jockey79]

What if we just balanced it by setting your solo and group play commander as separate from open play?

That was all ready brought up and answered pages ago - you'd lose players as some people do not have time to run 2 profiles (so wont play open) and some just plain don't want to have to keep starting new profiles for different areas.

The current set up lets all players do what they want, nothing is stopping you from building up in solo / private - only you are stopping you from doing that. Every change you've come up with limits other players where at the moment anyone can play how they want.

Even the idea of the PvP flag - if people could turn PvP on / off - you'd all moan that traders run with PvP off, so we'd be back to square one of this argument.

Plus, tell me how it is different if I should load up open, fly off in to the black for a week where you'll never find me - then come back in an Anaconda guns blazing, as opposed to playing solo where you cannot get and switching to open in an Anaconda guns blazing?

Plus, how would know which I'd done? and why would you feel devalued as a player from one of those and not the other?

 

[Joe Spivey]

I see this sort of thing mentioned lots in these discussions, and it makes me wonder whether we're even playing the same game...

There are plenty of people currently trading in Open. At the moment I'm one of them (having a blast space trucking in the Rift).

I've been playing exclusively in Open since the start of Premium Beta and in that time I've been fired on by players a grand total of four times outside of combat zones. The vast majority of players are having fun doing things other than shooting each other.

Open is not the huge gankfest that some people think it is, or in some cases want it to be.

It is the PvP players who, in the main, are the ones pushing for 'enforced open' or want to entice people into open with bribes of more profits. They are aiming all this at traders. Why? Why do they want to engage traders in PvP rather than others who want to do the Pew Pew game. "Because we is pirates!" They say... except that most of them are not. Most of them just want easy targets so they can get their kill stats up, this is true of all such games is it not? Rhetorical question, of course it is because we've all played those games (and heard the same excuses). Unfortunately, what our PvP friends are either forgetting, or deliberately ignoring (more likely imo) is that ED is not a PvP centric game. ED is not a competative game. ED was DESIGNED with PvP to be a part of the game and that PvP would happen rarely. ED was DESIGNED to be a player co-op game. And before you scream for links (I'm at work), go watch the Dev Diaries on FD's youtube site where DB states this explicitly and has repeated it in many interviews.

 

[Tyr07]

I'd be in favour of universal player masking, would make Open far more rational imho. I'm not totally averse to PvP (despite my posts ), but it has to make lore/world sense. If I'm the biggest juciest target going, a shieldless hauler full of gold, I'm expecting to get more than my fair share of heat. It's rational pirate behaviour to pick your targets based on risk/reward (although the risks for pirates are far too low), what I don't *personally* appreciate is players beelining to players simply because they have a hollow dot on the scanner, dropping out of SC without a word and then going on a killing spree, only to fly to the nearest station and pay off their trivial bounty. If someone came to your space station to pay off a murder bounty every few days, that might get a *little* suspicious, no?



Then let them know they have options... It's fair if everyone has the same opportunity. Just because you choose not to take opportunities does not make it unfair for other people to do so.

Okay, then that borders basically, either get smashed by solo players or adjust your play style. Which, what I am suggesting is also going to affect your play style.
I think there's a real potential open play health issue which will effect the overall games health in the long run.

I enjoy a fair both have same chance fight. I don't like offline games or solo games, that's my preference I know.

I only play open mode right now, but if suddenly all the time, all I saw were these max ships that just killed me always, then logged off / solo moded, and there was no feeling of a universe filled with all types, then I'd do the same thing, I'd either quit playing, or go solo mode until I also had the best everything.

Then every time you enter the open mode, everyone just has the best everything. You now have a 'I have the best equipment ' arena, which is all it would be used for. I don't care for pure pvp only in online games like this, like eve. I'd just stop playing.

If I stop playing, then I won't spend more money on the game, and this will affect the long term health, now, when I say I stop playing, I mean, like minded players who play open mode. Eventually this kind of behavior could make open mode obsolete / unused. I know if I personally go away, it doesn't affect FD or ED, but this kind of behavior could really affect the future of ED and what it could be capable of for all types of behavior if this goes on unchecked.

Flat out - If players are going to sit in a protected mode until they're 100% sure they have better requipment than me before engaging me, I will also make a choice to avoid that like they are. It means I will not play with these people.

 

[murraypaul]

People want to protect their egos and only PVP if they have the clear advantage.

You don't get it.
There are many many people playing the game who don't care about PvP.
We aren't playing the rest of the game to farm loot and jump in and 'gank' everyone.
We are playing the rest of the game because that is the part of the game we enjoy.

 

[Stormprooter]

But I also don't think it's fair if there are new players playing in open mode, taking the risks that come with it in their cobra or whatever, and you finally come out of solo mode with an anaconda or something, turf the living crap out of the little guy.

To paraphrase Cypher from the "The Matrix"

"A piece of advice, if you see a tricked out Anaconda, you do what we do, run, run your ass off."

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How much intersection do you think there is between:
a) People who get their jollies beating up the little guy in a vastly overmatch ship, and
b) People who are going to trade/explore/do missions in solo for long enough to buy and equip an Anaconda?

I'll take that one, and have an educated guess at somewhere pretty close to zero

 

[Joe Spivey]

You don't get it.
There are many many people playing the game who don't care about PvP.
We aren't playing the rest of the game to farm loot and jump in and 'gank' everyone.
We are playing the rest of the game because that is the part of the game we enjoy.

Absolutely. Well said... but they don't believe you because they cannot understand how anyone can enjoy a game without PvP.

 

[Tyr07]

How much intersection do you think there is between:
a) People who get their jollies beating up the little guy in a vastly overmatch ship, and
b) People who are going to trade/explore/do missions in solo for long enough to buy and equip an Anaconda?

I think you would be surprised, there are a lot of people who won't admit that's what they intend to do, they might even believe it themselves. Naw, I just don't like to pvp, solo is peaceful, naw it's great. Well, I max'd out everything now..hmm..what to do next, well I'm bored, let's go kill a player, yeah that'll be different and exciting...

No no. I didn't..you know, build up in solo to do this, it just kind of happened says the X amount of players doing this.

There are legit people who wouldn't, but the people who are arguing to separate open play and solo play aren't wanting it because they don't like that you're trading solo.

We don't like it because there are other PVPers out there who will specifically abuse this and use it to just gain an unfair advantage, forcing other people to play offline if they want to stay safe or competitive.
That's the real irony of this argument, is anyone that says it should be separate progression is trying to protect natural game play, some people trading, some people flying protection, some people pirating, some people bounty hunting.

They want to preserve a a balance of a variety of players, and not have it overshadowed by the ones that a pure pvp and use solo mode as a tool to prevent their own losses and increase other players losses.

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Absolutely. Well said... but they don't believe you because they cannot understand how anyone can enjoy a game without PvP.

No, it just becomes difficult if someone players solo mode to trade in a risk free envrionment, then after equipping themselves, they go open mode to...what?
Based on what is currently available in the game. I have acknowledged other people pointed out that later in the game there will be co-op missions and other reasons to be in open play, but look at it for what we can confirm we have right now.

 

[murraypaul]

I think you would be surprised, there are a lot of people who won't admit that's what they intend to do, they might even believe it themselves. Naw, I just don't like to pvp, solo is peaceful, naw it's great. Well, I max'd out everything now..hmm..what to do next, well I'm bored, let's go kill a player, yeah that'll be different and exciting...

I'm getting the feeling that any further discussion here is pointless.
Your basic assumption seems to be that everyone wants to hang around and gank defenseless newbies, and all that is stopping them is lack of good enough equipment.
That all game players have a layer of sociopath buried just beneath the skin.
That is so far away from my reality that I can't even see it from here.

Other games I've played in the last week or so are MiniMetro, Train Fever, Craft the World and Space Hulk. Not a gank in sight.
Other than Doom LAN parties back in college I don't think I've ever killed another player in any game, ever.
I'm really, really, not going to come after you in my pimped out Anaconda.
I might, at some point, want to play online with like-minded individuals, so don't want to be permanently locked into Solo.
If Solo-only or Open-only were the only choices, I would choose Solo-only, and the result would be one less person who might ever play online. How does that help Open?

 

[Joe Spivey]

No, it just becomes difficult if someone players solo mode to trade in a risk free envrionment, then after equipping themselves, they go open mode to...what?
Based on what is currently available in the game. I have acknowledged other people pointed out that later in the game there will be co-op missions and other reasons to be in open play, but look at it for what we can confirm we have right now.

Ok, I'll play along. Show me your evidence that this is actually happening and we'll discuss it.

 

[smintili]

Uff, this has been brought up again and again and is as tedious as the posts saying "the game is too hard/easy". No, don't separate Solo and Open mode, no, don't turn this into a direct-input version of EVE with fewer players. It's as if some people don't want to tolerate the fact that the AI ships pose threats too and as I have repeated over and over, this will be a singleplayer experience for most people anyway. Just look here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=59716

 

[Tyr07]

That was all ready brought up and answered pages ago - you'd lose players as some people do not have time to run 2 profiles (so wont play open) and some just plain don't want to have to keep starting new profiles for different areas.

The current set up lets all players do what they want, nothing is stopping you from building up in solo / private - only you are stopping you from doing that. Every change you've come up with limits other players where at the moment anyone can play how they want.

Even the idea of the PvP flag - if people could turn PvP on / off - you'd all moan that traders run with PvP off, so we'd be back to square one of this argument.

Plus, tell me how it is different if I should load up open, fly off in to the black for a week where you'll never find me - then come back in an Anaconda guns blazing, as opposed to playing solo where you cannot get and switching to open in an Anaconda guns blazing?

Plus, how would know which I'd done? and why would you feel devalued as a player from one of those and not the other?

Well, personally I wouldn't mind if traders could have a pvp flag. But what I would ask, would be that some sort of abuse control. Such as, when you create your commander, you flag PVP on or off then, and you cannot change it to kill someone, then turn it off to go back to trading.

Some sort of delay, like a month or something. Just some way to prevent people from attacking players and using the flag to hide from retribution. Or building up in the safety of pvp off until they have crazy gear and credits to fund their war machine, then turning into pvp mode.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Okay, then that borders basically, either get smashed by solo players or adjust your play style. Which, what I am suggesting is also going to affect your play style.
I think there's a real potential open play health issue which will effect the overall games health in the long run.

I enjoy a fair both have same chance fight. I don't like offline games or solo games, that's my preference I know.

I only play open mode right now, but if suddenly all the time, all I saw were these max ships that just killed me always, then logged off / solo moded, and there was no feeling of a universe filled with all types, then I'd do the same thing, I'd either quit playing, or go solo mode until I also had the best everything.

Then every time you enter the open mode, everyone just has the best everything. You now have a 'I have the best equipment ' arena, which is all it would be used for. I don't care for pure pvp only in online games like this, like eve. I'd just stop playing.

If I stop playing, then I won't spend more money on the game, and this will affect the long term health, now, when I say I stop playing, I mean, like minded players who play open mode. Eventually this kind of behavior could make open mode obsolete / unused. I know if I personally go away, it doesn't affect FD or ED, but this kind of behavior could really affect the future of ED and what it could be capable of for all types of behavior if this goes on unchecked.

Flat out - If players are going to sit in a protected mode until they're 100% sure they have better requipment than me before engaging me, I will also make a choice to avoid that like they are. It means I will not play with these people.

But that's just not what is happening at the moment, at least in the sectors I've passed through. I'm running a slightly up-gunned Cobra that is otherwise kitted for trading and I seem to be about average (possibly on the higher side) of the players I've seen in Open. Yes there are Anacondas and ASPs occasionally, but I'm not seeing this excessive up-gunning actually happen, and I suspect this will be the same after release.

Worst case, if it's going to go horribly wrong after release, I suspect it will be Startwinder/Eagle dogfight central, as those who don't want to grind their way to an Anaconda will PvP in their target rich environment. Now there may be some crossover of PvE trader to PvP ganker*, but I can't see your average PvE player wanting to step into the sociopath role for quick kicks...


*Not everyone doing PvP is a ganker, I mean the usual definition of ganker

 

[Joe Spivey]

Uff, this has been brought up again and again and is as tedious as the posts saying "the game is too hard/easy". No, don't separate Solo and Open mode, no, don't turn this into a direct-input version of EVE with fewer players. It's as if some people don't want to tolerate the fact that the AI ships pose threats too and as I have repeated over and over, this will be a singleplayer experience for most people anyway. Just look here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=59716

I agree, but it seems like the mods want us to educate the new players like we have done in so many threads in the past. So *shrugs* what can we do? If the mods don't close these circular threads down (like i thought they were supposed to) then I guess they must want us to go over the same old ground again and again.... and again... and again.

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Well, personally I wouldn't mind if traders could have a pvp flag. But what I would ask, would be that some sort of abuse control. Such as, when you create your commander, you flag PVP on or off then, and you cannot change it to kill someone, then turn it off to go back to trading.

Some sort of delay, like a month or something. Just some way to prevent people from attacking players and using the flag to hide from retribution. Or building up in the safety of pvp off until they have crazy gear and credits to fund their war machine, then turning into pvp mode.

But this is trying to introduce some crazily complicated game mechanic to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist.

 

[Tyr07]

Ok, I'll play along. Show me your evidence that this is actually happening and we'll discuss it.

Oh I fully admit I have zero proof that this is going on here on ED, but I'm basing my expectations from many many, many years of online play since it first became online, like when hotplayer or whatever was around to connect peoples games. Dial up, null modems.

Even in Eve there were players who would hide in NPC corporations, so if you attack them, concord kills you, and you cannot declare a sanctioned war against the npc corp. They would find you mining in an expensive ship, and come in, suicide gank you with much cheaper ships.

These players are out there, they play many games, and I'm confident these people will find their way into ED as well.

I'd like to mention on that note however that attacking players that are not wanted needs a much stiffer penalty and response. Like if it's in a medium to high security system, the federal ships appear quickly and engage that target, and that bounties cannot simply be paid off. I think destruction of another player that is not wanted should add a bounty that is stiff and stays until you die. Or something like the bounty is at whatever you cost that player. So if you killed a clean hauler worth 100k, you get a 100k bounty.

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I agree, but it seems like the mods want us to educate the new players like we have done in so many threads in the past. So *shrugs* what can we do? If the mods don't close these circular threads down (like i thought they were supposed to) then I guess they must want us to go over the same old ground again and again.... and again... and again.

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But this is trying to introduce some crazily complicated game mechanic to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist.

There is foresight, many problems do not occur in this world because we implement solutions to ensure they never become problems in the first place. You don't have to always wait until a ton of people are choked or not playing anymore before implementing something to prevent that problem.

I akin it to programming. You see under a specific circumstance something can cause a memory leak, although very unlikely to occur in this scenario, but you shouldn't just leave it until it does happen and you have a serious problem.

 

[Lanatir]

What the pvp fanatics dont get is that if they make people chose between full open or full solo, they would be really really lonely really really quick. The way it is set up now they at least have a remote chance to now and then meet people they can force their harrassment playstyle on.