Game loses something by not forcing Open play
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Robert Maynard
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While those who do not care to be griefed can exist perfectly well without griefers, griefers are very unlikely to be able to exist very happily without those who do not care to be griefed.
TL;DR - only one of the groups you mentioned *needs* the other.
Wow... Way to insult everyone equally. Can't have a go at you for favouritism at least. However the "scared crybabies" didn't pay for the game in order to be targets for the "stupid griefers". It's supposed to be fun for everyone, not fun for one group at the expense of another.
Yes i know that, but for me useing solo play as "easier" money grind would be cheating myself. However if nothing will change (in modes of play) this will be method for easy money.
Yes, playing pvp is always some kind of competition, u should have better assets to win easily. So pvp players will offen grind in solo mode and destory thier assets in open play.
As someone who hasn't bought the game yet (I will tonight) but has watched quite a few videos about it I have to say I like the idea of a solo mode. It doesn't seem like there's sufficient mechanics in place to limit gankers...I mean pirates. I've seen a lot of concern that the AI "police" are powerless to do anything about gankers and that new players are at their mercy.
In games like War Thunder nothing like that matters. The game is designed for PvP. In games like Star Sonata (which almost nobody knows) there are AI police that will wreck anyone breaking the peace but they don't exist everywhere. There are also level limits so that newbies aren't ganked by high levels. Most games use that sort of limitation.
They would be the sort of thing needed here. Bounties need to count for something and AI "police" need to be strong enough to enforce the peace and pose a real threat to any pirates. Everything I've seen and read so far says they aren't even close to a threat and gankers basically have free reign, with their only "threat" being an occasional minor expense. Pirates should have few havens, large bounties and should always be looking over their shoulder for bounty hunters (which is another thing I've heard is a problem: way too many pirates and almost no bounty hunters due to low rewards).
Mind you I've never played EVE, mostly due to how griefing is so prevalent. Griefing is NOT PvP and I've never wanted to participate so I stayed away from that game.
In my opinion this game's true PvP potential lies with the factions, not ganking. Choose a faction and engage in a three-way war. That's where the potential is. I don't know if that's planned or not but it's certainly better than "high level" gankers lying in wait for newbies trying to earn some money, knowing they have nothing to worry about.
In games like War Thunder nothing like that matters. The game is designed for PvP. In games like Star Sonata (which almost nobody knows) there are AI police that will wreck anyone breaking the peace but they don't exist everywhere. There are also level limits so that newbies aren't ganked by high levels. Most games use that sort of limitation.
They would be the sort of thing needed here. Bounties need to count for something and AI "police" need to be strong enough to enforce the peace and pose a real threat to any pirates. Everything I've seen and read so far says they aren't even close to a threat and gankers basically have free reign, with their only "threat" being an occasional minor expense. Pirates should have few havens, large bounties and should always be looking over their shoulder for bounty hunters (which is another thing I've heard is a problem: way too many pirates and almost no bounty hunters due to low rewards).
Mind you I've never played EVE, mostly due to how griefing is so prevalent. Griefing is NOT PvP and I've never wanted to participate so I stayed away from that game.
In my opinion this game's true PvP potential lies with the factions, not ganking. Choose a faction and engage in a three-way war. That's where the potential is. I don't know if that's planned or not but it's certainly better than "high level" gankers lying in wait for newbies trying to earn some money, knowing they have nothing to worry about.
They got hit so hard that their world is full of the imaginary griefers now.
I have yet to play the game, as I preordered and will only be able to do so from the 16th onwards. Just saying.
But I know these problems you are all talking about since a long time in many other games.
And the solution, theoretically, is very simple. Programming it in is maybe not so simple, but should be perfectly possible, and would be awesome imho.
I apologize if this already exists in the game (and I'm talking about the complete idea below) , but I doubt as otherwise this whole thread would not exist.
Solution:
Open can only be forced or kept on, when we have a real system which can punish people who simply gank/grief others for the fun of it.
Nothing is more 'lame' and weak then flying around in a souped up spaceship, seeing a 'newbie' flying around trying to find his way, and blasting the hell out of him just for laughs.
I do think, that this should be possible however, BUT with serious repercussions.
For a starter, the one doing so, should be immediately flagged as 'dangerous' or 'pirate' or similar, and should get a bounty on their heads which should be distributed by the computer systems over ALL of the stations and whatever exists in this game where you would be able to read it on, EVERYWHERE.
The player who got killed for no reason should have the possibilty to create a small form and add it to this distributed news, in the form of a couple of questions where you get to choose from drop down boxes etc (this to prohibit profanity because if you would allow ppl to type their own text it would become crazy I think). And all the players info should be added also to the news, including what ship he was flying, what cargo he had on him, which weapons were installed etc. And it should also show the same for the person who killed him. This would also help in judging the truth etc.
Now of course, after only 1 of such iterations, nobody can be sure that the player who got killed is speaking the truth, as it could as well have been him who opened fire for example.
So 1 iteration shouldn't incur a big penalty for a killer. But every kill on top of that should add more weight and everyone should be able to access information on ANYONE flying, and shee what he has killed during a certain past time period.
This combination of info would make it possible for ANYONE to see whether someone goes around just killing people for fun or not. Now add on to that a bounty/reward system to hunt such players down, and you would have no problems at all with this.
It doesn't stop here of course, because we all know, such lame people who do these things (killing non aware players just for fun and because they KNOW they are weaker) usually group up into bigger clans/guilds or whatever you want to call them, to avoid this happening to them etc.
Therefore, you create also a system, which makes it possible, that if a whole clan/guild in the game is harbouring such players, or a certain percentage even, that the whole clan/guild gets targeted as hostile/pirate!
Once this happens, there should be a system which makes it possible, to make group huntings on them. Meaning that for example you visit a station, you check the computers there for such players/clans/groups, and you make it possible to schedule GROUP BOUNTYHUNTS. Meaning that any nr of players can group together to go search and attack them together, meaning that even when you have such lame pirate clans/groups/guilds, they would NEVER be safe.
Of course you can do all of this by making a clan/guild yourself which does something like that, or by using the forums maybe. But most ppl like me, who have aged a bit, have gotten tired of clan life and don't want to sit on a Teamspeak talking to others just for the sake of such things. I prefer to play this game and sit calmly on my own teamspeak with my friends who play other games.
That's why it would be good to incorporate such a system into the game.
So in short, this system should make it possible for example to schedule a group hunting, and to give others the possibility to join this scheduled group hunting, at a certain scheduled date and time and star system to start off with the hunt. Once you applied/joined this hunt, you should simply be there at that time and done. Those ppl who joined should be in a separate/extra alliance or whatever you would like to call it, for the duration of that hunt so that you can distinguish each other and stay together for as far as it possible.
Now imagine that, a solution to all the problems imho... griefers and gankers would think twice in shooting ppl who are weak and unharmful, because they would quickly get hunted!!! When such a griefer/ganker hides in a clan, it wouldn't take long for his clan to become completely hunted! People would think twice and it would create a system like we all kind of know in real life, or used to know, or want at least
.
I would love to dish out the pain to such lamers and their clans/guilds they hide in. All of this would become possible without anyone needing to know anyone, without it being necessary to be in a clan yourself!!
And 'Open' or 'All' (PVP), wouldn't be such a problem at all! Imagine the people joining these hunts.... it would be magnificent!
I knew some ppl who played EVE, one of them was in what he said was one of the largest guilds there is in that game, and they go and kill ppl for fun all the time, which really destroys the game for those ppl because indeed also people who play a game ALONE like to enjoy it WITHOUT being FORCED into a clan or guild and being FORCED to be on TS or Ventrilo and so on and so on.
I hope it becomes possible, because I too, will play in Open first, but the moment I lose everything because some or other idiot(s) just decide to start firing on me for no reason, without even opening comms etc, and making me lose the weeks I have worked for for no reason at all, will instantly make me go play in Solo!
Death to pirates and their whole clans and guilds!
Make them pay in whatever way possible. Give us a means in this game to let a lot of ppl mass together specifically to hunt such weaklings and lamers down!!!
I'm sure EVERYONE, except the lamers themselves, would love such a system! Once the pirate/pirates/clan has been eradicated, they should lose their status as pirate and be able to start over fresh of course! Giving them the possibility to better their lives!
And to be honest, it would make playing a pirate also be fun, as that is what you're looking for no? Excitement and danger, you steal, and someone will come looking for you! No matter with how many you are! You know, you will have to pay, sooner or later, or run for ever!
But I know these problems you are all talking about since a long time in many other games.
And the solution, theoretically, is very simple. Programming it in is maybe not so simple, but should be perfectly possible, and would be awesome imho.
I apologize if this already exists in the game (and I'm talking about the complete idea below) , but I doubt as otherwise this whole thread would not exist.
Solution:
Open can only be forced or kept on, when we have a real system which can punish people who simply gank/grief others for the fun of it.
Nothing is more 'lame' and weak then flying around in a souped up spaceship, seeing a 'newbie' flying around trying to find his way, and blasting the hell out of him just for laughs.
I do think, that this should be possible however, BUT with serious repercussions.
For a starter, the one doing so, should be immediately flagged as 'dangerous' or 'pirate' or similar, and should get a bounty on their heads which should be distributed by the computer systems over ALL of the stations and whatever exists in this game where you would be able to read it on, EVERYWHERE.
The player who got killed for no reason should have the possibilty to create a small form and add it to this distributed news, in the form of a couple of questions where you get to choose from drop down boxes etc (this to prohibit profanity because if you would allow ppl to type their own text it would become crazy I think). And all the players info should be added also to the news, including what ship he was flying, what cargo he had on him, which weapons were installed etc. And it should also show the same for the person who killed him. This would also help in judging the truth etc.
Now of course, after only 1 of such iterations, nobody can be sure that the player who got killed is speaking the truth, as it could as well have been him who opened fire for example.
So 1 iteration shouldn't incur a big penalty for a killer. But every kill on top of that should add more weight and everyone should be able to access information on ANYONE flying, and shee what he has killed during a certain past time period.
This combination of info would make it possible for ANYONE to see whether someone goes around just killing people for fun or not. Now add on to that a bounty/reward system to hunt such players down, and you would have no problems at all with this.
It doesn't stop here of course, because we all know, such lame people who do these things (killing non aware players just for fun and because they KNOW they are weaker) usually group up into bigger clans/guilds or whatever you want to call them, to avoid this happening to them etc.
Therefore, you create also a system, which makes it possible, that if a whole clan/guild in the game is harbouring such players, or a certain percentage even, that the whole clan/guild gets targeted as hostile/pirate!
Once this happens, there should be a system which makes it possible, to make group huntings on them. Meaning that for example you visit a station, you check the computers there for such players/clans/groups, and you make it possible to schedule GROUP BOUNTYHUNTS. Meaning that any nr of players can group together to go search and attack them together, meaning that even when you have such lame pirate clans/groups/guilds, they would NEVER be safe.
Of course you can do all of this by making a clan/guild yourself which does something like that, or by using the forums maybe. But most ppl like me, who have aged a bit, have gotten tired of clan life and don't want to sit on a Teamspeak talking to others just for the sake of such things. I prefer to play this game and sit calmly on my own teamspeak with my friends who play other games.
That's why it would be good to incorporate such a system into the game.
So in short, this system should make it possible for example to schedule a group hunting, and to give others the possibility to join this scheduled group hunting, at a certain scheduled date and time and star system to start off with the hunt. Once you applied/joined this hunt, you should simply be there at that time and done. Those ppl who joined should be in a separate/extra alliance or whatever you would like to call it, for the duration of that hunt so that you can distinguish each other and stay together for as far as it possible.
Now imagine that, a solution to all the problems imho... griefers and gankers would think twice in shooting ppl who are weak and unharmful, because they would quickly get hunted!!! When such a griefer/ganker hides in a clan, it wouldn't take long for his clan to become completely hunted! People would think twice and it would create a system like we all kind of know in real life, or used to know, or want at least
.I would love to dish out the pain to such lamers and their clans/guilds they hide in. All of this would become possible without anyone needing to know anyone, without it being necessary to be in a clan yourself!!
And 'Open' or 'All' (PVP), wouldn't be such a problem at all! Imagine the people joining these hunts.... it would be magnificent!
I knew some ppl who played EVE, one of them was in what he said was one of the largest guilds there is in that game, and they go and kill ppl for fun all the time, which really destroys the game for those ppl because indeed also people who play a game ALONE like to enjoy it WITHOUT being FORCED into a clan or guild and being FORCED to be on TS or Ventrilo and so on and so on.
I hope it becomes possible, because I too, will play in Open first, but the moment I lose everything because some or other idiot(s) just decide to start firing on me for no reason, without even opening comms etc, and making me lose the weeks I have worked for for no reason at all, will instantly make me go play in Solo!
Death to pirates and their whole clans and guilds!
Make them pay in whatever way possible. Give us a means in this game to let a lot of ppl mass together specifically to hunt such weaklings and lamers down!!!
I'm sure EVERYONE, except the lamers themselves, would love such a system! Once the pirate/pirates/clan has been eradicated, they should lose their status as pirate and be able to start over fresh of course! Giving them the possibility to better their lives!
And to be honest, it would make playing a pirate also be fun, as that is what you're looking for no? Excitement and danger, you steal, and someone will come looking for you! No matter with how many you are! You know, you will have to pay, sooner or later, or run for ever!
Well I'm a bit late to the conversation, but I feel I must throw my two cents in.
I live in the middle of nowhere and literally cannot ever get a good internet connect (at least if I continue to live here). The major ISP in this area actually came out to my house one day just to tell me that they cannot provide service in my area due to there being no hardlines or something like that. So I'm stuck with satellite internet and have an average ping (at least when I play World of Tanks or test the connection on speedtest.net) of 700 - 800 ms. Oh and I'm limited to 10gb of bandwidth every month, so I have to be careful with how much of the internet I use (except for the hours between 12am and 5am, when the connection isn't metered).
Now when I heard the offline solo play was no longer in the game I was a little peeved, but this solo-play game mode that requires only a tiny bit of internetz is a perfect option for people like me. My game can still be affected by the persistent universe thing, and I don't have to deal with trying to dogfight on a laggy connection.
Anyways that's my viewpoint on the matter. As the OP says there could be people that play in solo mode just to build up some decent ships without ever having the difficulty of real players going against them, and then hopping onto the fully-online game mode. But I don't think this is much of an issue. I would personally rather have the difficulty of playing against other players than have to deal with my worthless connection.
I live in the middle of nowhere and literally cannot ever get a good internet connect (at least if I continue to live here). The major ISP in this area actually came out to my house one day just to tell me that they cannot provide service in my area due to there being no hardlines or something like that. So I'm stuck with satellite internet and have an average ping (at least when I play World of Tanks or test the connection on speedtest.net) of 700 - 800 ms. Oh and I'm limited to 10gb of bandwidth every month, so I have to be careful with how much of the internet I use (except for the hours between 12am and 5am, when the connection isn't metered).
Now when I heard the offline solo play was no longer in the game I was a little peeved, but this solo-play game mode that requires only a tiny bit of internetz is a perfect option for people like me. My game can still be affected by the persistent universe thing, and I don't have to deal with trying to dogfight on a laggy connection.
Anyways that's my viewpoint on the matter. As the OP says there could be people that play in solo mode just to build up some decent ships without ever having the difficulty of real players going against them, and then hopping onto the fully-online game mode. But I don't think this is much of an issue. I would personally rather have the difficulty of playing against other players than have to deal with my worthless connection.
It's not a PvP game. Even in open it's not a PvP game. Deal with it... there's a lot more to this game than just PvP. Players who seek combat in open OR solo, against players OR npcs are always more likely to lose their assets than players who avoid combat in open OR solo. There's still no argument for forcing people into open etc - it's just a whinge about having fewer soft targets for griefing.
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Please allow me to label you, RedruM-X, as the idealist. You're proposing certainly interesting player generated content and I wish I will see it happening. However, MMO reality is much different. Victims aka carebears are often attacked because they represent the juicy target with no back up. The main reason why it happens is because they treat MMO as a single-player game and then they're surprised they're hit with overwhelming force. Gankers aka griefers are tend to be more involved in MMO aspect. They're often more organized and they're the ones who actually gang up and play as a group. They also do not travel much, group traveling can get tricky. So "gankers" stick to familiar systems and attack using their intel network. Gankers are territorial. Once a player is familiar with what's going on in the surrounding systems and what to be expected, avoiding being attacked is trivial. On the other hand if a player wanders into unfamiliar waters in an unarmed ship full of goodies there is really no one to blame for his own death. Raging on forums only make gankers being proud of themselves.
What I described is the healthy eco-system that exists in many PVP oriented open world sandboxes and if it happens in Elite they're definitely moving in the right direction. Same principles happen in the forest or coral reef where nature is unforgiving and merciless.
What I described is the healthy eco-system that exists in many PVP oriented open world sandboxes and if it happens in Elite they're definitely moving in the right direction. Same principles happen in the forest or coral reef where nature is unforgiving and merciless.
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I agree with your description, the only problem I see with your point is that Elite is precisely not a PvP oriented game.
"Once a player is familiar with what's going on in the surrounding systems and what to be expected, avoiding being attacked is trivial."
Another easy way is to join a PvE group.
which is why you will find the majority of the players in solo or private groups.I agree with your description, the only problem I see with your point is that Elite is precisely not a PvP oriented game.
"Once a player is familiar with what's going on in the surrounding systems and what to be expected, avoiding being attacked is trivial."
Another easy way is to join a PvE group.
What is Elite? So far it's the most PVP MMO I played other than BF4. So much hated EVE has the way harder consequences on aggression than Elite. And I think having different modes are great and tailored for all kind of players. If a player prefers Solo by all means let him stay there. I don't share the concern of everyone's gone Solo and left open empty. What I think is bad is the "mode overlapping". I see this as the abusive mechanic which can be exploited.
Precisely because the size of the sandbox itself + 32 ppl per instance induces that, even in "open", encounters with other players will generally be unusual events (except if you stick around a few populated systems). Frontier made it clear from the beginning that they would do nothing to favour PvP.
So you can't say it is a PvP oriented game when you meet a few other players in a week and that most of them just go on with their own business and will (may be) say "hello" before jumping to the next system.
Sometimes you will have a longer chat, and sometimes you can briefly cooperate for instance in a bounty hunting party.
The game is mostly a solo experience in a multiplayer environment, where the added individual actions of other players have some influence on what happens around you.
So you can't say it is a PvP oriented game when you meet a few other players in a week and that most of them just go on with their own business and will (may be) say "hello" before jumping to the next system.
Sometimes you will have a longer chat, and sometimes you can briefly cooperate for instance in a bounty hunting party.
The game is mostly a solo experience in a multiplayer environment, where the added individual actions of other players have some influence on what happens around you.
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I can say whatever I want and I'm happy to share my observation with a polite and interesting opponent. The vast size of ED limits the players encounters and I absolutely love this idea of player controlled level of human interaction. However, there are areas where I can see players in all forms and shapes every 5 minutes.
I honestly don't see what the problem is. So what if solo play is happening in the same server as open play. What possible difference does that make to anyone choosing to play in open mode?
Can someone explain this - and don't anyone use "diluting my trade run" coz that was just nonesense.
Can someone explain this - and don't anyone use "diluting my trade run" coz that was just nonesense.
I am no opponent, I share your view that each one can control how much interaction he wishes by selecting the systems where he flies. But the people who designed the thing always said from the beginning it was not meant to be a PvP game.
For now I think I will join a group of civilized people who don't shoot at each other and stay there, although I am also tempted to have a solo career at first for the pleasure of having a souvenir taste of the 1984 flavour.
In any case I will not jump between modes with the same pilot. If I wanted one day to have an "open" experience, I would start it new.
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fofo was the invention of a Japanese Ultima Online player 'Tiger Fai' who would continually have his goods stolen. Although he did not understand the concept of securing his own mined ore from the thieves of UO, he did however recognize those who stole it from him. In broken engrish he would mash the f and o keys declaring his foes for all to see.
<Tiger Fai> fofofoofofofofofofofofooo
your MOM
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I find Solo very dull and not less dangerous than open. However, I did use solo to escape some threatening player's encounters and I think it's wrong to do so. Yet I still did it because the game allows.
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