"Getting it": A Definitive Discussion

[JeffRyan]

This, exactly!

There is no specific "society" imposing rules in the ED universe but the whole spectrum of forms of society, many of which will wildy contradict each other in terms of rules and norms.

Simply transferring values held dearly in one's real life to a fictional game world and expecting everybody to stick to them is not role playing but in fact the very opposite of it!

The ED universe with its extremely varied societal constructs allows players to take up arbitrarily diverse roles, including the thief, drug trafficker, slavemonger, terrorist and homicidial maniac - to only name of few of the more obvious ones who all, by the way, exist in our real world as well.

If and how people playing these roles will get away with their acts will depend on how "real" societies will actually be implemented in the game. Right now I think it is safe to say that life as a criminal carries almost zero risk even in highly populated Fed systems. I expect this to change.

Sure, but most societies have some basic rules. Like killing for the hell of it. Empire, Alliance, Republic and most of the Independents will frown on that, the anarchy systems and systems with little to no authority.... That's a whole different ballgame.

But that rule is only one. There are others, like what goods you can buy and sell being the other biggie. How you treat salvage. And probably others. The interesting thing is, this isn't me myself who'll frown on Bob killing Frank for no reason other than his cargo and salvage. Your NPC pirate faction might kick you out if your bounty is too high (too much heat!) or the local authorities will swoop in when you try to dock at an affiliated station in a nearby starsystem.

I, the player, won't come to the forums and cry that Frank's a bad man and is behaving mean to people. The game, will take care of that for me. Within certain societies.

 

[Cosmos]

It's what we all do on the forums

None of these gigantic, existential forum arguments survive the moment when the spinning Sidey vanishes and we find ourselves back in the game.

True say. You know we might all make passionate posts about the game as we see it but ultimately, its great there is a new Elite game, a day I thought would never come. Some things are worth arguing over.

 

[Keve Rodenberg]

The thing is, a player who just likes to mash his controller and watch things go "boom" without giving the role-playing aspect much thought will not really be discernible to us and the game world from a player who actively role-plays a terrorist.

So, what difference does it make if the second player "gets" it and the first one doesn't?

 

[JeffRyan]

The thing is, a player who just likes to mash his controller and watch things go "boom" without giving the role-playing aspect much thought will not really be discernible to us and the game world from a player who actively role-plays a terrorist.

So, what difference does it make if the second player "gets" it and the first one doesn't?

The button masher will, unless he learns enough about the game to move out to the less populated anarchy systems, quickly find himself with a large bounty on his head. Have few places he can safely visit and will generally find his progress limited.

The roleplayer will be smart about it, he'll pick the right system, even stay in the core worlds but on a border system where he can stay friends with one side and pick on the enemy. He'll profit from his actions and progress.

Now even if the button masher mimics the roleplayer by learning about his enviroment, he's effectively become a roleplayer and we all win.

 

[StewartScott]

Seems reasonable to me that the game could track someone who constantly attacks other players first, and slap a a HUGE bounty on their heads that wouldn't go away until they suffered as many deaths as they had caused type of thing.

The hunters become the hunted.

Sounds like fun to me

 

[Sumkawps]

The thing is, a player who just likes to mash his controller and watch things go "boom" without giving the role-playing aspect much thought will not really be discernible to us and the game world from a player who actively role-plays a terrorist.

So, what difference does it make if the second player "gets" it and the first one doesn't?

The difference is in economic viability of the playstyle. The one who gets it will make their murder part of an economically viable playstyle (i.e. within the mechanics).

The one who doesn't get it will run out of money quickly (killing without economic motive equals backwards credit progression) and will find it harder and harder to recover the longer they maintain their approach.

Expect to see the latter whine loudly and regularly post release about costs of insurance making PvP prohibitive, being unfairly penalised, the need for competition arenas with prizes, and the game not offering the freedom it advertises and other empty nonsense.....

 

[Titus Balls]

Expect to see the latter whine loudly and regularly post release about costs of insurance making PvP prohibitive, being unfairly penalised, the need for competition arenas with prizes, and the game not offering the freedom it advertises and other empty nonsense.....

Actually we (TEST) tried to do the competition arena with IRL prizes via steam (as we cannot offer prizes like skins sadly) and although not officially sanctioned, I know of one Frontier producer who was happy -

That sounds awesome, I personally am really pleased to see this kind of emergent gameplay that the community is coming up with; thank you for organising it.

Sadly we can't do it right now due to such a fast changing environment. As soon as things settle down, then we'll get right back to organising it.

 

[ianw]

Actually we (TEST) tried to do the competition arena with IRL prizes via steam (as we cannot offer prizes like skins sadly) and although not officially sanctioned, I know of one Frontier producer who was happy -



Sadly we can't do it right now due to such a fast changing environment. As soon as things settle down, then we'll get right back to organising it.

See that makes sense - I always thought people would do that sort of thing and if you need to make it "make sense" in game it's squadron training or whatever.

 

[Sumkawps]

Actually we (TEST) tried to do the competition arena with IRL prizes via steam (as we cannot offer prizes like skins sadly) and although not officially sanctioned, I know of one Frontier producer who was happy

Yes, out-game prizes and emergent organised events are great, and fine. In-game prizes that undermine the economic consequences of non-mechanics based PKs, we are unlikely to see - for the obvious reasons noted above. We might one day see grand in-game tournaments for vanity stuff, but I imagine that to be further down the FDev priority list for now.

Expect to see lots of whining about the economics side of it though, from those who don't "get it".

 

[GuntiNDDS]

Agreed.

Confession: I only read the tldr

 

[JeffRyan]

Expect to see lots of whining about the economics side of it though, from those who don't "get it".

Then we explain it. Again and again. We do need patience and remember these people aren't the enemy.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

I actually just have to leave a comment:

While I play , role playing if you will, I do move away from my personality in RL, but only to a certain extent
I mean I do not rob other citizens , I do not steal from others, I do not kill other people either...

You can get away with that in Elite ..

But as little as I find it tantalizing i RL to randomly kill people , as little do I in game feel any joy or satisfaction in the thought of senseless killing, on the contrary as in RL it disgusts me.

So my conclusion to this question is : I think there are certain moral values that most of us a brought up with, that simply is such a strong barrier, that most of us find it very hard to be "evil..
Furthe I think that those that show these psychopathic traits ingame are people where these moral values are insignificant or very, very thin, and when chance are there to "let it free" they feel free , there are no repercussions, where as in RL there are.

Judging from the amount of threads on the subject, and the post count in these threads, some has had bad experiences, so it is real.

I hope I make sense

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[Sumkawps]

Then we explain it. Again and again. We do need patience and remember these people aren't the enemy.

You forget the golden rule of the interwebz - never argue with a cretin, as they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience, unless Godwin's Law gets invoked first.

But on a slightly more serious note, all of this stuff is there in the DDA, the interviews, and the dev comments on the forums. And on the flip side, there are plenty of people who desperately want those materials to have no probative value, as it doesn't suit whatever agenda they want to push, so there are some people you will just never reach.

When we get close to release, I do hope FDev will release the compendium version of the ruleset and mechanics so that newcomers who don't yet get it can be directed to the explanations, and the nay-sayers be silenced by the facts.

 

[Keve Rodenberg]

Furthe I think that those that show these psychopathic traits ingame are people where these moral values are insignificant or very, very thin, and when chance are there to "let it free" they feel free , there are no repercussions, where as in RL there are.

Yeah, so this one comes up a lot: "People who enjoy 'killing' other players in a video game that has all the mechanics in place to make that very straightforward, must have questionable moral values as persons in real life."

Seriously? How much more armchair can "analysing" other people get? This is a game people will be playing when unwinding from their day at the office. (Well, maybe. At least if this is going to be a commercial success. Some people seem to not even want it to become one. It needs to do well financially, however, if we want it to still be around two years from now.) So, if they get a bit of competitive satisfaction from blowing up a bunch of other people's virtual spaceships then that's perfectly understandable because they are playing a game, and playing it against other people may be the only way that gives them that competitive context! I am not this kind of player myself, but I completely understand that mindset, and it actually suggests itself much more strongly than any role-playing perspective, which a lot of people will find much too contrived. So, basically, it will be them who actually have a healthy outlook on the whole affair, not those who take this game (!) way too seriously by dragging real life morals into it.

 

[Wolfman]

People will always do what they want in games, even when its at odds with what is the perceived intent of the game.

The solution is repercussions, or cause and effect.

Someone who plays like a psychopath or socio-path should be treated like one by the game world. If you go around murdering everyone you see, you should expect to quickly become unwelcome in that faction space. Eventually they should only be able to dock in Anarchic systems, where they are forced to survive along side others with a similar mindset.

Yes

 

[Adept]

The thing is, a player who just likes to mash his controller and watch things go "boom" without giving the role-playing aspect much thought will not really be discernible to us and the game world from a player who actively role-plays a terrorist.

So, what difference does it make if the second player "gets" it and the first one doesn't?

The one who is playing an in universe terrorist is taking those "boil 3 civilian ships ar Dahan" missions, and seeing where it leads. Those just blowing people up are doing no such thing.

Also "homicidal maniac" is not a role or occupation somebody decides to take in the real world, but a symptom of mental illness. In the real world, such rampages end quickly in the death or imprisonment of the murderer. In a game, somebody can do it again and again, and only banning (or more elegantly, hellbanning) will put a stop to it. That is why that tool is needed in the Frontier kit for persistent lunatics.

 

[Keve Rodenberg]

The thing is, a player who just likes to mash his controller and watch things go "boom" without giving the role-playing aspect much thought will not really be discernible to us and the game world from a player who actively role-plays a terrorist. So, what difference does it make if the second player "gets" it and the first one doesn't?

The one who is playing an in universe terrorist is taking those "boil 3 civilian ships ar Dahan" missions, and seeing where it leads. Those just blowing people up are doing no such thing.

Sure, but the question still stands how you as the other player will notice the difference, i.e. what difference it will make to your gameplay.

Also "homicidal maniac" is not a role or occupation somebody decides to take in the real world, but a symptom of mental illness.

Yes, but one can still decide to role-play such a character. I am sure anyone who has actually played any old-fashioned pen-and-paper RPGs will agree. When I think back of the characters I played in AD&D, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Traveller and a few others, practically none of them actually had decided to become what they were. They were the product of their life up to the point when I started playing them. There were some decisions they had made and many others they had had no influence on. At least two of them had deeply troubled personalities bordering on mental illness.

Basically most of the "role-playing" arguments I see around here seem to be completely oblivious to what role-playing actually is.

 

[Sumkawps]

Sure, but the question still stands how you as the other player will notice the difference, i.e. what difference it will make to your gameplay.

Mad Bonkers Dubya the RP player will presumably have a carefully nurtured character, where diplomacy and negotiation might, just might, save the opposing PC from the righteous fury of his weapons of judgment (and presumably lead to fun and enjoyment for all involved in the interplay), whereas Backer#31173 will just open up, go for a quick kill and maybe send a canned "lol, pwned n00b" message when you're at 5% hull and he's about to deal the death blow.

If the RP player doesn't engage in an interactive comms interplay, no difference would be noted - but that's his issue to sort out if he wants to be seen as different from Backer#31173, not mine. His roleplay, his effort, and he cannot be unaware of the danger that his roleplay would be mistaken for something else.

Longer term, it's fair to hope that Backer#31173 will be long gone, having miserably failed to secure his own economic viability in the face of the unforgiving consequences handed out to criminals in a game where loitering brings the death penalty, but where he instead wanted to have more pew-pew and less anything else.

 

[Asp Explorer]

But purest, shimmering white Pew-pew, devoid of thought or the merest whiff of "consequence" is what many gamers want, and the only thing they can comprehend.

It's not our fault that gaming has devolved to that stage, and it's not the Boomheadshotbro's fault that they have been spoon-fed this game style since they were old enough to be let loose on Daddy's Xbox.

Elite offers an entirely different style of play, where "consequence" has meaning. Those that do not learn that will quickly stop playing, or clamor more for "guild" content so that they can be supported in-game by others to continue the Pew-pew.

It's going to be interesting to see how it turns out.

 

[Adept]

Basically most of the "role-playing" arguments I see around here seem to be completely oblivious to what role-playing actually is.

24 years of roleplaying here so far. Never stopped, just keep finding more layers and depth.

Neither roleplaying nor MMOs happen in a vacuum. If you decide to just shoot your fellow investigators in the face because you feel like it in a murder investigation game, you will find out that the player group will not play with you anymore.

Elite characters have a context and a genre. They are all privileged members of the Pilot's Federation. Elite is also a co-op and immersion focused MMO (with versus elements as well). If a person decides to spend their time in Elite messing randomly with other players, the end result will be the same as when you don't respect the game at a RPG table, the rules at a football match or the lanes and right of way when driving. Before long, others will decide not to put up with your antics.

Freedom does not mean we are free to try and wreck other people's game. When somebody does that enough, they will be shown the door or put into restricted match making with people similarily hellbanned.

Note, this is not an "All PvP is bad" argument. It is me pointing out that "I'm roleplaying a crazy terrorist" will ultimately not fly.