Glaives (Hunter class ships) are overpowered and...

[Kira Goto]

as in total power, not distributor draw).

Minor caveat to that - by last standing of information(not seen anyone say anything new to it), the weapon stabilizer says it draws power but actually doesn’t. Make of that what you will - no guarantee it won’t be fixed at some point if intended.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I fly HOSAS FA-off and prefer fixed weapons for most things. No custom curves (though maybe I should experiment with that?). I'm not competitive in proper PVP due to a wide variety of skill issues, but fixed aim isn't anywhere near the top of the list of deficits. I'm working on it, though!

I would highly recommend using a software to tune your HOSAS input curves.

If your HOSAS does not come with an input curves software, Joystick Gremlin will do the trick. Previously, I used Joystick Curves, but it is no longer updated and now has some problems with Win 10.

Also - didn't the transition to PC bring a bunch of PVP CMDRs who flew on controllers and still managed to do well? I heard about it but haven't followed closely.

No idea. But I guess there are people that can use controllers very well. I can't.

Any (reasonable) control scheme is more than good enough for popping interceptors with gauss.

Not in my experience. With my X52 and no tuned input curves, getting a hit on a heart was pure luck. With tuned curves it became much, much easier to get a hit.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

KB + Mouse + Relative Mouse still rules FA OFF.

This is the same silly stuff said by most HOTAS/HOSAS pilots.
Then you ask the KB/M users which controls are "best", and they say the HOTAS/HOSAS pilots have it easier.

Meanwhile, controller users who don't have a choice:

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I just wanted to chime in on this one point. If we only had the standard Guardian weapons (unlock once, buy as many as you want), I wouldn't be upset that they've been rendered useless. I wouldn't be for it, but it wouldn't bother me.

That they render all this useless only a year or two after allowing the pre-engineered Salvation weapons, which required a LOT of mats to purchase EVERY SINGLE WEAPON - yeah, I have a problem with that. And I can fully understand others being even more upset than I am (I've just walked away from AX combat, meh).

I'm very frustrated with compounding bad decisions they are making:

1. They finally let us equip more than 4 AX weapons, but only if you install modules which take up valuable space and are an energy drain (as in total power, not distributor draw). And this module is needed for both the human AND Guardian weapons, under the guise that AX weapons put a strain on the ship. Yes, the Guardian weapons certainly do... but the Human AX weapons are just modified multicannons and missile launchers! How is that putting excess strain on the ship?!
2. They finally give us gimballed AX multicannons, which are nearly required for some ships (T-10). But you still have to scan the ship first (fine), so...
3. They give us an enhanced AX scanner that still falls shorter in range than OC Kill Warrant Scanner with G5 fast scan. And we can't engineer it. I don't know about the rest of you, but I grew tired of the 10 second scans 6 years ago and haven't dealt with them since (always engineered). But this, everything else AX, can't be engineered. We can even put the minor special effects on them like Autoreload or Oversized (only increase damage by 3%)
4. Even when using the Guardian weapons, you needed to have some kind of Xenoscanner installed or you couldn't tell what the basic ship type and health of your target was. This may not matter in 1v1 space encounters with interceptors, but really matters when your in a CZ. Why this information isn't part of our standard sensors AFTER SIX YEARS is ridiculous.
5. Guardian Weapons only come in Size 1 and 2. Human AX weapons only come in size 2 and 3. Guardian weapons - fine, we don't need bigger. We do need C4 AX multicannons so the big ships, and even the Mamba and FDL, could have more punch in AX encounters. We could also use C1 AX missile launchers. The human AX weapon sizes really neuter a lot of the previously good medium ships for engaging Thargoids.
6. We still have not received an upgraded AX Taipan. We really need that now as the Guardian SLFs are useless anywhere (which is apparently everywhere now) there is anti-guardian field.
7. The anti-guardian field isn't just melting Guardian weapons and Guardian SLFs, but ALL Guardian tech. So those commanders that eschewed engineering and went for a quicker (I guess?) unlock of the Guardian Power Plant and Power Distributor - yeah, they're majorly screwed now. Guardian Module protection is also dead. Oddly, Guardian HRPs are still worth it (because the game can't degrade them separately from the rest of your hull) as they offer the best caustic resistance. Even better than the Meta Alloy HRPs (how the heck do you explain that)?

That is just the short list. The Glaives have added several points on their own, in addition to aggravating some of the ones above. For example, making it exceedingly dangerous for the ships trying to avoid combat (wasn't that hard before) to either do passenger rescue missions or AX restore missions.

I would honestly prefer to just use Human AX weapons and fighters, but they need to improve them a lot more (especially the fighters) and remove the need for the module stabilizer.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. I've really checked out on this whole thing. It used to be when they introduced something new to the game, we had to deal with bugs. Now we also have to deal with harsh, unpredictable decisions. Didn't do everything to get the mats to unlock the Maelstrom Pulse Wave neutralizer pre release (coincided with Update 15? Guess what, now you not only have to deal with the harsh Maelstrom environment but you also got to dodge Glaives that you probably won't be about to outrun and outfight. What a lovely surprise! Been doing some AX combat in invasions systems with a ship using Guardian weapons? Well, toss that ship aside unless it can mount a bunch of Human AX weapons instead. Ugh.

Yeah, I'm done talking about this and I'm done caring about the AX war that was shoved down our throats. I'll keep doing whatever I"m doing, when I actually want to play, until the time comes where it's all burnt to the ground and then I'll spend my time elsewhere. Meh.

All excellent points that I wholly agree with.

But illogical decisions, extensive grind-based gameplay, nerfing previous player work and incongruence tuning gameplay balance, are some of FDev's trademarks and should come as no surprise.

P.S. I am sick of people justifying these changes by saying the Thargoids are so advanced that it makes sense they would adapt quickly. Yeah, it might, if all the previous years of lore didn't directly contradict that. The Thargoids were driven back, completely, by the Guardians over 2 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the Guardians were wiped out in a civil war. In the 2 million years since then, the Thargoids never found a way to counter Guardian tech. We had several years of using weapons based on that tech and the Thargoids were unable to cope. It wasn't until some mad scientist decided to cram tons of Guardian Tech into the wreck of Thargoid ship, in order to instantly destroy them, that they were finally able to turn the tables and corrupt the Guardian tech. Also it took them what - 100 or 200 years - to recover from the Mycoid virus. The Thargoids are incredibly advanced, but highly adaptible? Uh, no. That theory is not supported by the facts in evidence.

Yes. Explaining it through "lore" is just a way to disguise, through a band-aid, a lack of knowledge of gameplay systems and really poor decision making.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

I agree with most of your points, with the exception of this one.
This whole paragraph is just absolutely false. There are (and there have always been) users of virtually all kind of control methods (MKB, HOTAS, double stick, controller, you name it) among the top PvPers.

Not to my knowledge. All the ones I know of, which I admit are not so many, use KB + Mouse + Relative Mouse.

It might be not be as extreme as I wrote, but that is what I have concluded, based on my experience in ED.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

This is the same silly stuff said by most HOTAS/HOSAS pilots.
Then you ask the KB/M users which controls are "best", and they say the HOTAS/HOSAS pilots have it easier.

I haven't heard any KB/M user say that. I have heard HOTAS/HOSAS users say that a lot of times, though. And I agree with them.

Meanwhile, controller users who don't have a choice:

I guess, like in every area were humans dwell, there will always be the 0.001% of people capable of incredible feats of skill, no matter the difficulty or the constraints imposed on them.

That example and of others like this one: 20 Medusa VS Chieftain Solo, 15 kill(almost 16) - CMDR MuQuuu are not a rule, but a rare exception.

Therefore, they are not part of the median result upon which statistics are made to base any conclusion upon.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

This is why I said it's silly to discuss it. You say what is "best" and when presented with evidence showing the best pilots use something else, you dismiss it as irrelevant.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

This is why I said it's silly to discuss it. You say what is "best" and when presented with evidence showing the best pilots use something else, you dismiss it as irrelevant.

You have only shown 1 example of an Ace AX CMDR that uses a Controller. That is not a factual verification that "best pilots use controllers / HOTAS / etc...".

CMDRs Muquuu, Bokatan, Maligno, Citizen Kate, Marie Monroe all use KB + Mouse with Relative Mouse.

 

[Mako The Grey]

Not to my knowledge. All the ones I know of, which I admit are not so many, use KB + Mouse + Relative Mouse.

It might be not be as extreme as I wrote, but that is what I have concluded, based on my experience in ED.

If you read a bit on the Anti-Xeno Initiative Discord channel....You'll find a large number of the top ranked pilots use a HOTAS setup. And there are some who use a controller and many who use KB&M. It's a known and published tip there that Keyboard and mouse provides superior control to HOTAS....yet a number still do really well with a HOTAS set up. I would note though...Virpil (and similar) are far beyond what you could do with HOTAS brands even a few years ago. Still....personal preference rules.

 

[galahad2069]

Not to my knowledge. All the ones I know of, which I admit are not so many, use KB + Mouse + Relative Mouse.

It might be not be as extreme as I wrote, but that is what I have concluded, based on my experience in ED.

And where does your knowledge come from? How many of the top players have you played with during wingfight events or tournaments?

What I said was just a plain fact.
All control methods have their advantages and downsides, but all of them can be used competitively once you've put in the necessary effort to git gud with it.

The main reason why MKB is the most widespread is that literally all PC users have a mouse and a keyboard, but not all of them are willing to spend a lot of money to buy other expensive controllers like high quality joysticks and suchlike (especially not if they are using a laptop), but MKB is absolutely not an "I win" method.

Ironically, there has been a constant influx of former console players after Odyssey and many of them still use controllers on PC. Very competitively and successfully, I must add.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

And where does your knowledge come from? How many of the top players have you played with during wingfight events or tournaments?

None. I do not engage in PVP. I concede that my idea of KB/M ruling PVP, is of reading many forum discussions and seeing gameplay videos about it, but I do not have hands-on-experience myself.

I mainly focus around AX players, and many of the really good ones use KB/M in FA OFF. They are exceptionally smooth at aiming. And, many of the times, I can distinguish the difference in input smoothness if a CMDR is using KB/M or HOTAS.

What I said was just a plain fact.
All control methods have their advantages and downsides, but all of them can be used competitively once you've put in the necessary effort to git gud with it.

Fair enough. I use a HOTAS because I came from plane simulators and I cannot adapt to a KB/M or a Controller, in a sim situation.

The main reason why MKB is the most widespread is that literally all PC users have a mouse and a keyboard, but not all of them are willing to spend a lot of money to buy other expensive controllers like high quality joysticks and suchlike (especially not if they are using a laptop), but MKB is absolutely not an "I win" method.

Well, I have seen some of the setups of a few of these Ace CMDRs and the large majority of the ones that use KB/M do not use inexpensive mouses and keyboards. They use multibuttoned / programmable mouses and keyboards like the Razer Naga and Razer Tartarus Pro to complement an high-end PC with a 4K display or a VR HMD. I know that the price of that hardware (~250€) is not comparable to a Virpil or VKB setup (+450€) , but they choose KB/M over HOTAS / HOSAS while spending a lot more than the difference between those, in 4K displays / VR HMDs and a very high-end CPU + graphics board...

Ironically, there has been a constant influx of former console players after Odyssey and many of them still use controllers on PC. Very competitively and successfully, I must add.

Good for them. I hate Controllers myself and cannot adapt to them.

 

[galahad2069]

I hate Controllers myself and cannot adapt to them.

LOL probably I couldn't either.
But it was just an example of a not typically flightsim-friendly control method and how it won't exclude you from high level pvp in this game (unlike some other games).

I'm using a 20+ button mouse and a keypad myself, but never really felt it a huge advantage over good hotas players in a competitive pvp environment.

As I said, MKB is the most common control method simply because the pool of those players who have at least some experience with using a mouse is way larger than that of those who use something else (literally every PC owner has a mouse).

But all of this is utterly off topic here, sorry for having derailed the thread.

As for the Glaive issue, I don't like the "delete Guardian weapons" thing either, I think the cold orbit meta was pretty good (it was virtually the only form of PvE that required some skill), it's just that it does not really affect me as I rarely do anything else than PvP and only used Thargoids as a non-boring source of rebuy money.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

LOL probably I couldn't either.
But it was just an example of a not typically flightsim-friendly control method and how it won't exclude you from high level pvp in this game (unlike some other games).

I'm using a 20+ button mouse and a keypad myself, but never really felt it a huge advantage over good hotas players in a competitive pvp environment.

As I said, MKB is the most common control method simply because the pool of those players who have at least some experience with using a mouse is way larger than that of those who use something else (literally every PC owner has a mouse).

Ok. So, it is because the KB/M player base is much bigger, therefore there are more Aces using that control method. Not because KB/M has an advantage, but because the pool of people using them is larger. Point taken.

Now I feel better about using HOTAS in ED...

But all of this is utterly off topic here, sorry for having derailed the thread.

No problem on my part. I just learned some interesting stuff.

As for the Glaive issue, I don't like the "delete Guardian weapons" thing either, I think the cold orbit meta was pretty good (it was virtually the only form of PvE that required some skill), it's just that it does not really affect me as I rarely do anything else than PvP and only used Thargoids as a non-boring source of rebuy money.

LOL. I see. Humanity's greatest ever threat is just a convenient money basket for dedicated PVPers...

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Good points!

Frankly, I just watched the Starfield expo and - come September - ED is gonna have a very hard time keeping my attention.

Yes, been waiting for that expo. Watching it now.

To be fair, remember that Starfield is a Bethesda game. So it may not be fully... playable... until six months to a year after release (looking at you, Fallout 4).

Edit: Ok, finished watching it. Wow! It's looking so much better than I was hoping for! It will definitely cut into my ED playing time - just as Fallout 4 has - but I'll probably still play ED. As a sidenote, it's offering everything I was hoping for in Star Citizen - without having to worry about gankers - so I no longer care if that game ever gets finished now.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Minor caveat to that - by last standing of information(not seen anyone say anything new to it), the weapon stabilizer says it draws power but actually doesn’t. Make of that what you will - no guarantee it won’t be fixed at some point if intended.

It seemed to be adding to the power draw in my outfitting and power priority screens last time I played with it. Whether or not it actually was pulling power, I can't say. So you could be right.

 

[Uiros Ueramos]

From my latest findings, the best way to combat Glaives (in a armed ship) is to boost joust it because, in this case, the time it passes close to you is decreased to a minimum and makes it harder for the Glaive to connect its Lighting attack.

Doing this repeatedly, while shooting at it, will make it much harder for the Glaive to switch on its shields (that get recharged by the Lightning attack) and will allow you to damage its hull bit by bit.

This should also work when Hyper / Interdicted by two of them (hasn't happened to me yet), but the margin for error is surely much smaller and it is for sure much more dangerous.

 

[Mako The Grey]

From my latest findings, the best way to combat Glaives (in a armed ship) is to boost joust it because, in this case, the time it passes close to you is decreased to a minimum and makes it harder for the Glaive to connect its Lighting attack.

Doing this repeatedly, while shooting at it, will make it much harder for the Glaive to switch on its shields (that get recharged by the Lightning attack) and will allow you to damage its hull bit by bit.

Tried it that way at first...found it to be too slow. Now I just stay on them and use my beam to drop his shield faster. One of my builds is dedicated to hunting the Orthrus with a 6 AX-missle build and a beam laser. Getting pretty good at stunning the Glaive with a barrage of missiles (it just spins at a stand still for a time) and killing it while taking very little damage myself. Obviously...a specialized build.

 

[Ydiss]

Managed to build a functional AX (EDO) mission runner ship that can actually outrun Glaives (and with ease), in case anyone is interested.

EDSY

EDSY is a ship outfitting tool for Elite Dangerous

edsy.org

Slap on 1-2 fuel tanks to move it about then remove them before taking any AX missions and just make sure the target system has a scoop star (and the jump isn't more than 50% of the fuel tank, which is only 1C to keep the speed above 800m/s which is the key). You can remove the shutdown field neutraliser for more speed, but I like to keep that for the odd times interceptors turn up as you're recalling your ship and they'll usualy fire their field off.

It can do very little other than run very, very quickly and deliver an SRV for on foot missions but it does both expertly well and runs under 20% heat when idle/low thrust, so is pretty stealthy. It's a lot of fun to fly

 

[Jack Winter]

An 835m/s iCourier has to be fun to fly!

 

[Ydiss]

Tried it that way at first...found it to be too slow. Now I just stay on them and use my beam to drop his shield faster. One of my builds is dedicated to hunting the Orthrus with a 6 AX-missle build and a beam laser. Getting pretty good at stunning the Glaive with a barrage of missiles (it just spins at a stand still for a time) and killing it while taking very little damage myself. Obviously...a specialized build.

My only issue with fighting them is my canopy takes a battering. Well over 70% hull left but the canopy is blown so fast sometimes because the Glaive sits itself permanently dead on. This is in the Chieftan (mostly AXMCs on gimble mount, one beam for the shields).

I may try missiles if it actually stuns them. They're not tough to hit, they barely move most of the time (in relation to me anyway).