Going against your own word - "infiltrators" please note

[Stigbob]

Most likely because the issue involves a video game based on combat that is used as a form of entertainment, and the behavior in question has no meaningful in-game or out-of-game consequences other than being removed from the PG.

I don't see difference between cheating in a video game or any other type of game, provided its played against other people.

Elite, however, does not. Otherwise please explain to me why the major PVP groups systematically cheated with the Engineering exploit for a year and had no consequences other than the removal of the exploited modules? FD has set the bar for cheating and the penalties are very, very low. So low, in fact, that I fully expect those same PVP groups to not hesitate to use a new method of cheating if it becomes available in the future because the only consequences are the removal of whatever method was being used with no other in-game penalties.

Its OK for FDEV to be rubbish at dealing with cheating as they've given us mode choice and block. "They didn't stop me" just doesn't work as personally I'd opt out of playing a game with anyone who believed not being stopped was sufficient reason to cheat. I have the tools to do so as well.

Video games are a form of online entertainment with no actual risk or consequences relating to them. That doesn't mean the behavior is "good", it clearly isn't, but FD has set the penalties for cheating in the game and they are basically non-existent. If FD doesn't want to "punish" players who blatantly cheat with exploits and destroy other players in Open, what makes you think they are going to enforce arbitrary rules in a PG?

Being a video game doesn't really change it for me. I never knowingly play games with cheats as a personal preference, conning your way into a PVE PG to go on a rampage is definitely cheating as you are avoiding people who can fight back/concentrating on the weak.

One of my hobbies is archery, people sometimes try to cheat at that by rule lawyering the score or trying to get one of your shots ruled disqualified. There's no risk or consequence there either beyond being rejected for further tournaments because people refuse to play with you. They don't get punished, they just wind up lonely.

 

[Devari]

I don't see difference between cheating in a video game or any other type of game, provided its played against other people.

I didn't refer to cheating here, I was referring to not following an arbitrary set of rules in a PG. Cheating fundamentally disrupts the game for everyone involved, following a PG's arbitrary rules only disrupts that PG.

Its OK for FDEV to be rubbish at dealing with cheating as they've given us mode choice and block.

That's utter nonsense. First, the cheating exploit was used for a year before it was finally revealed on the forums. Countless players would have been griefed and trolled by the cheating PVP groups during that year without having any idea what was happening. They would have had no idea who to block without knowing that they were cheating. Second, "mode choice" isn't an excuse for someone to straight-up cheat in Open, that argument makes no sense. You might as well argue you can "choose" to not play the game so cheating isn't an issue.

"They didn't stop me" just doesn't work as personally I'd opt out of playing a game with anyone who believed not being stopped was sufficient reason to cheat. I have the tools to do so as well.

You can't "opt out" of playing with cheaters if you don't know they are cheating.

Being a video game doesn't really change it for me. I never knowingly play games with cheats as a personal preference, conning your way into a PVE PG to go on a rampage is definitely cheating as you are avoiding people who can fight back/concentrating on the weak.

You do realize that many members of the SDC straight-up admitted to losing their Engineered modules on these forums, right? You also realize that SDC still exists as a PVP group and you may encounter them in Open? Same with all of the other PVP groups who used the exploit. You are potentially playing with cheaters every time you go into Open. For all you know the PVP groups may have found another way to cheat and simply haven't told anyone about it.

One of my hobbies is archery, people sometimes try to cheat at that by rule lawyering the score or trying to get one of your shots ruled disqualified. There's no risk or consequence there either beyond being rejected for further tournaments because people refuse to play with you. They don't get punished, they just wind up lonely.

Except that I didn't see the Elite playerbase pushing out SDC or the other PVP groups following the reveal of the widespread use of the Engineering exploit. It's just business as usual for them. When well-known groups can blatantly cheat and keep on playing like nothing has happened that tells you there are basically no consequences for cheating. Did SDC and other groups lose credibility? Sure, but they obviously couldn't care less about that as their goal is griefing and trolling, not being "credible" or "respected" by other players.

 

[Stigbob]

I didn't refer to cheating here, I was referring to not following an arbitrary set of rules in a PG. Cheating fundamentally disrupts the game for everyone involved, following a PG's arbitrary rules only disrupts that PG.

Matter of perspective its dirty pool to gain a cowardly unfair advantage, deffo cheating in my eyes.

That's utter nonsense. First, the cheating exploit was used for a year before it was finally revealed on the forums. Countless players would have been griefed and trolled by the cheating PVP groups during that year without having any idea what was happening. They would have had no idea who to block without knowing that they were cheating. Second, "mode choice" isn't an excuse for someone to straight-up cheat in Open, that argument makes no sense. You might as well argue you can "choose" to not play the game so cheating isn't an issue.

They had their naughty kit removed along with legit mods as a punishment, so that's an example of FDEV dealing with cheats.

I've blocked players who admitted doing it, for admitting doing it.

You can't "opt out" of playing with cheaters if you don't know they are cheating.

Does that matter ?.

You do realize that many members of the SDC straight-up admitted to losing their Engineered modules on these forums, right? You also realize that SDC still exists as a PVP group and you may encounter them in Open? Same with all of the other PVP groups who used the exploit. You are potentially playing with cheaters every time you go into Open. For all you know the PVP groups may have found another way to cheat and simply haven't told anyone about it.

Most of them have already ragequit, lots after the FDEV purging of modules. I don't worry about potential cheats as that's everyone, I will opt out of playing with actual cheats though.

Except that I didn't see the Elite playerbase pushing out SDC or the other PVP groups following the reveal of the widespread use of the Engineering exploit. It's just business as usual for them. When well-known groups can blatantly cheat and keep on playing like nothing has happened that tells you there are basically no consequences for cheating. Did SDC and other groups lose credibility? Sure, but they obviously couldn't care less about that as their goal is griefing and trolling, not being "credible" or "respected" by other players.

Mode choice is how most people opt out. One of the most attractive things about Mobius is the ban list of people not allowed in. Open PVE could never compete with that.

 

[bitstorm]

Except that I didn't see the Elite playerbase pushing out SDC or the other PVP groups following the reveal of the widespread use of the Engineering exploit. It's just business as usual for them.

You're living in fantasy land.

Frontier didn't do squat about the Engineering exploits, until it all kicked off.

Frontier subquently taking action was ENTIRELY driven by players kicking up a fuss, and demanding Frontier to pull their finger out and take some action to maintain the integrity of their own game.

Many many people wanted these folk removed permanently from the game.

 

[Stigbob]

Many many people wanted these folk removed permanently from the game.

This.

Mobius gets infiltrated specifically because its a very powerful tool against undesirables which triggers the undesirables to add themselves to the banned list, far more powerful than any form of open PVE could be.

Entirely player driven and maintained.

 

[Devari]

You're living in fantasy land.

Frontier didn't do squat about the Engineering exploits, until it all kicked off.

Frontier subquently taking action was ENTIRELY driven by players kicking up a fuss, and demanding Frontier to pull their finger out and take some action to maintain the integrity of their own game.

Many many people wanted these folk removed permanently from the game.

FD did the minimum necessary to satisfy players that the exploit was removed. That was it. The Elite playerbase did not collectively shut down SDC the next time they tried to push their own agenda on the forums, they basically forgot the entire exploit issue happened. The Elite playerbase could have very readily turned their backs on SDC on the forums, refused to post in their threads or at the very least repeatedly reminded everyone that SDC now has zero respect and credibility among the playerbase. That hasn't happened. Just because FD chose to impose the minimum possible consequences for cheating (i.e., removal of the cheating method itself with basically no other consequences) doesn't meant that the issue was somehow dealt with properly. What happened is like Lance Armstrong having his trophies taken away after being caught cheating and then promptly returning to professional cycling without being called out by the rest of the cycling community.

 

[Devari]

Matter of perspective its dirty pool to gain a cowardly unfair advantage, deffo cheating in my eyes.

Not following a PG's rules is not the same as cheating by using an exploit. They are completely different concepts.

They had their naughty kit removed along with legit mods as a punishment, so that's an example of FDEV dealing with cheats.

Except that the cheaters who used the exploit had basically zero legit mods to remove because all of their gear would have been modded using exploits. FD did not impose any actual consequences beyond removing the illegal mods.

I've blocked players who admitted doing it, for admitting doing it.

If I could block all of SDC, and all of the other groups who used the exploit, I would do so but there's no easy way for me to do that.

Does that matter ?.

Of course it does. It's like saying that you wouldn't cycle against Lance Armstrong if you knew he was cheating. The problem was, no one knew until long after the cheating occurred.

Most of them have already ragequit, lots after the FDEV purging of modules. I don't worry about potential cheats as that's everyone, I will opt out of playing with actual cheats though.

Again, you need to identify the cheaters while they are cheating, not after the fact once the cheating method has been removed.

Mode choice is how most people opt out. One of the most attractive things about Mobius is the ban list of people not allowed in. Open PVE could never compete with that.

Mode choice should be a way of playing in a different gaming environment, i.e., Solo (PVE only) or PG, not as a means to deal with cheaters in Open.

 

[Devari]

This.

Mobius gets infiltrated specifically because its a very powerful tool against undesirables which triggers the undesirables to add themselves to the banned list, far more powerful than any form of open PVE could be.

Mobius isn't a means of eliminating cheating, it's a means of allowing some contact and interaction with other players without the same risk of PVP that you encounter in Open.

Entirely player driven and maintained.

Which is exactly the point. PGs need to set and enforce their own informal rules. If a group like Mobius, or any other PG, doesn't do any sort of background checks and allows players to join by simply clicking a box, they should expect to have to routinely identify and remove players who refuse to follow their rules.

 

[bitstorm]

FD did the minimum necessary to satisfy players that the exploit was removed. That was it. The Elite playerbase did not collectively shut down SDC the next time they tired to push their own agenda on the forums, they basically forgot the entire exploit issue happened. The Elite playerbase could have very readily turned their backs on SDC on the forums, refused to post in their threads or at the very least repeatedly reminded everyone that SDC now has zero respect and credibility among the playerbase. That hasn't happened. Just because FD chose to impose the minimum possible consequences for cheating (i.e., removal of the cheating method itself with basically no other consequences) doesn't meant that the issue was somehow dealt with properly. What happened is like Lance Armstrong having his trophies taken away after being caught cheating and then promptly returning to professional cycling without being called out by the rest of the cycling community.

I'm not really sure what your point is tbh.

At the time people were glad of *any* action from Frontier, even getting an acknowledgement that the problem exists was a huge triumph.

I agree Frontier's action was on the weak side, but the action did draw a line under it. People were very very glad Frontier had done *something*, for many it was seem as a start, that finally perhaps Frontier were taking this sort of thing seriously.

I subsequently did bring up previous exploits in SDC/Potter related threads and was quickly shut down by mods, I'm sure others did too. But I don't know what you mean SDC pushing an agenda on the forums, many people pushed back on that, but not all SDC stuff was bad was it, some of it was legit gameplay so the reaction will vary.

For example if SDC were killing DW2 folk in open, well it's all "good" isn't it, by good I mean sure maybe distasteful but it's FFA open isn't it so it is what it is.

For me, during the engineer exploit period, I was pretty disgusted that NONE of the big ED content creators would even cover the issue when it very badly needed publicising to leverage Frontier into action.

All of them, completely silent, every single one. [where is it]

You can draw your own conclusions why that was. Thankfully I think it would be different today, at least I think Yamiks would help bring visibility to it.

But again what's your point?

 

[Devari]

I'm not really sure what your point is tbh.

At the time people were glad of *any* action from Frontier, even getting an acknowledgement that the problem exists was a huge triumph.

Once the scope of the issue was revealed on the forums, FD had to act to restore the integrity of the game. I wouldn't call that a huge triumph, just a necessity.

I agree Frontier's action was on the weak side, but the action did draw a line under it. People were very very glad Frontier had done *something*, for many it was seem as a start, that finally perhaps Frontier were taking this sort of thing seriously.

Yes, I was glad that something definitive was done to close the exploit, and I started a thread to this effect on the forums at the time as I was glad the integrity of the game was restored. It did not, however, deter future cheating as the PVP groups did not actually "lose" anything by cheating, they got a year of overpowered modules and suffered no other consequences from using them.

I subsequently did bring up previous exploits in Potter related threads and was quickly shut down by mods, I'm sure others did too. But I don't know what you mean SDC pushing an agenda on the forums, many people push back on that, but not all SDC stuff is bad is it, some of it is legit gameplay so the reaction will vary.

SDC routinely pushes their agenda about combat logging and there are very few players other than myself who keep reminding them that they have no credibility or authority any more. I even have a Lance Armstrong meme I created to illustrate their hypocrisy. No one else seems to care though, they actually engage in discussions with SDC on the forums as if they have any position from which to address those sorts of issues.

For me, during the engineer explot time, I pretty disgusted that NONE of the big ED Youtubers would even cover the issue when it very badly needed publicising to leverage Frontier into action, all of them, completely silent.

Thankfully I think it would be different today, at least I think Yamiks would make it known.

But again what's your point?

My point is that FD has done the minimum necessary in the case of widespread and blatant cheating that resulted in the destruction of countless numbers of player ships by PVP groups during that year. FD never made any attempt to compensate those players in any manner for their losses that were incurred by players who were blatantly cheating. Yet somehow there is this unrealistic expectation that FD will start to strictly police player behavior in the context of informal rules within a specific PG? Sorry, that's just not a reasonable expectation. FD didn't restore players losses from the Engineering exploit and that was blatant cheating. They should not somehow restore losses from players breaking informal PG rules. Those PGs need to become far more selective about who they let into their groups and enforce their own rules effectively.

 

[Sylveria]

This.

Mobius gets infiltrated specifically because its a very powerful tool against undesirables which triggers the undesirables to add themselves to the banned list, far more powerful than any form of open PVE could be.

Entirely player driven and maintained.

True, although it lacks the one thing a true Open PvE would have... which is no maximum player limitation.

The ability to ban users in PG's is indeed a powerful tool- but it should never have to come to that to begin with. And any player who chooses to "out" themselves in Mobius PvE will only get ONE shot at it when they do. Create "chaos and mayhem" for a moment, they may- but to to what actual goal? It still doesn't change the game.

Frontier could very well solve this issue and do what should have been done from the very beginning. Swallow their wounded pride and realize they haven't found the Holy Grail of Gaming.

Open PvP
Open PvE

 

[Stigbob]

Mobius isn't a means of eliminating cheating, it's a means of allowing some contact and interaction with other players without the same risk of PVP that you encounter in Open

.​

Mobius is whatever you want it to be, the griefers are the cheats and vice versa. So for me its a very effective cheat avoidance tool.

​

Which is exactly the point. PGs need to set and enforce their own informal rules. If a group like Mobius, or any other PG, doesn't do any sort of background checks and allows players to join by simply clicking a box, they should expect to have to routinely identify and remove players who refuse to follow their rules.

Background checks ?. That's utterly unrealistic its just a video game mode. Perma-booting the ones who cheat/break the rules is way to go.

 

[Sylveria]

Background checks ?. That's utterly unrealistic its just a video game mode. Perma-booting the ones who cheat/break the rules is way to go.

Yep. "Keeping Honest People Honest".

Locks do nothing to deter a true burglar. If they want to get in, they'll find a way. That's why a shotgun is handy for home defense.

 

[Devari]

Mobius is whatever you want it to be, the griefers are the cheats and vice versa. So for me its a very effective cheat avoidance tool.

Only if the cheating is limited to PVP interactions, as opposed to credit exploits or other ways of cheating.

Background checks ?. That's utterly unrealistic its just a video game mode. Perma-booting the ones who cheat/break the rules is way to go.

Which is exactly what the DW2 organizers can do. They should probably maintain the same PG for future events so that anyone kicked from the current PG can't do it the next time they have DW3 or something. Since the DW2 organizers clearly didn't do their due diligence before the DW2 expedition launched they can use this as a learning experience for what happens when you let everyone and their dog into your PG and somehow expect everyone to follow the PG rules.

 

[Sylveria]

Which is exactly what the DW2 organizers can do. They should probably maintain the same PG for future events so that anyone kicked from the current PG can't do it the next time they have DW3 or something. Since the DW2 organizers clearly didn't do their due diligence before the DW2 expedition launched they can use this as a learning experience for what happens when you let everyone and their dog into your PG and somehow expect everyone to follow the PG rules.

No matter how much "background checking" you do, it's never going to be flawless.

Deception is a tried and true tactic. Has been since the dawn of time. The only thing you can truly do is prepare for the inevitable.

That's reality, my friend.

 

[bitstorm]

Once the scope of the issue was revealed on the forums, FD had to act to restore the integrity of the game. I wouldn't call that a huge triumph, just a necessity.

...

My point is that FD has done the minimum necessary in the case of widespread and blatant cheating that resulted in the destruction of countless numbers of player ships by PVP groups during that year. FD never made any attempt to compensate those players in any manner for their losses that were incurred by players who were blatantly cheating. Yet somehow there is this unrealistic expectation that FD will start to strictly police player behavior in the context of informal rules within a specific PG? Sorry, that's just not a reasonable expectation. FD didn't restore players losses from the Engineering exploit and that was blatant cheating. They should not somehow restore losses from players breaking informal PG rules.

Well I don't know about that, but as I said getting Frontier to take *any* action was the triumph, not the quality of their action. I think for many it was seen as a starting point.

On your comparison between reimbursing all players that lost ships to certain players who may or may not have had exploited mods equipped during a time window of 6+ months is an entirely different proposition to reimbursing one person, right after the fact who was verifyably attacked in the DW2 PG.

I mean one's likely impossible, the other is very easy to do.

 

[Devari]

No matter how much "background checking" you do, it's never going to be flawless.

Deception is a tried and true tactic. Has been since the dawn of time. The only thing you can truly do is prepare for the inevitable.

That's reality, my friend.

That's exactly my point. Players who join a PG should understand that it isn't run by a magic unicorn who can eliminate griefing and trolling from the game.

 

[Stigbob]

Only if the cheating is limited to PVP interactions, as opposed to credit exploits or other ways of cheating.

Cheats don't have lists of do's and don't they just use whichever cheats they want at the time. As with cheats and griefing its the same people, no need to make any distinction.

Which is exactly what the DW2 organizers can do. They should probably maintain the same PG for future events so that anyone kicked from the current PG can't do it the next time they have DW3 or something. Since the DW2 organizers clearly didn't do their due diligence before the DW2 expedition launched they can use this as a learning experience for what happens when you let everyone and their dog into your PG and somehow expect everyone to follow the PG rules.

Due diligence lol, get real its a video game PG.

Just kick the ones who cheat/grief and leave them kicked. The issue with salt about it is down to people not understanding the kicking process is what makes the PG better than open/taking video games too seriously which is also why the infiltrations/cheating happens in the first place.

 

[Sylveria]

That's exactly my point. Players who join a PG should understand that it isn't run by a magic unicorn who can eliminate griefing and trolling from the game.

Which is exactly why people who assert "Private Groups" = "Open PvE" are incorrect.

It's not even remotely the same thing. All Private Groups does is take the responsibility from Frontier to ensure a consistent gaming experience and put it into the players hands- the Admins of the PG.

Which, shouldn't even be necessary- but as I stated previously, given the constraints of the current system it's all that's possible at present.

 

[Devari]

Well I don't know about that, but as I said getting Frontier to take *any* action was the triumph, not the quality of their action. I think for many it was seen as a starting point.

On your comparison between reimbursing all players that lost ships to certain players who may or may not have had exploited mods equipped during a time window of 6+ months is an entirely different proposition to reimbursing one person, right after the fact who was verifyably attacked in the DW2 PG.

I mean one's likely impossible, the other is very easy to do.

It also sets a problematic precedent that is a very slippery slope. If they take the risk out of players actions that goes against informal PG rules they are showing favoritism towards that group. What about Power Play activities? Should those actions also be reversed? That would be a massive mess for FD to sort out. FD does not and should not police player actions if they are playing within the formal game rules. Players who want to create a PG or other type of player group with its own informal rules should be entirely responsible for monitoring and enforcing those rules using the tools FD has provided (i.e., kicking or blocking those players).