Goodbye Open til SCB issue is sorted

[Soopyyy]

Another stupid answer...i start to think that SCB are here for the pleasure of little griefers fanboys. Judging by the quality of replies of the proSCB people,if i would be Braben i'd delete them from game instantly, and start to clean the galaxy from commanders Overpowered.

Not at all, they're in the game to add an element of strategy rather than it being simply a case of the most DPS wins. It was either that or watching the Vipers disapear into the distance when they realised they were out gunned and out classed...

 

[torc]

Not at all, they're in the game to add an element of strategy rather than it being simply a case of the most DPS wins. It was either that or watching the Vipers disapear into the distance when they realised they were out gunned and out classed...

And anyone here wants delete banks ffrom game...we are asking for a rework in funcionality and gameplay...IMO them ruined the dangerous feeling in a dogfight.

 

[Soopyyy]

And anyone here wants delete banks ffrom game...we are asking for a rework in funcionality and gameplay...IMO them ruined the dangerous feeling in a dogfight.

Then pick a challenge. It is possible to knock the shields out before a SCB can be fired...

 

[M00ka]

Okay, a question to those who support SBCs: If FD removed all SBCs overnight from the game, what would change for you - could you still win the battles you were winning before, would your gameplay change?

 

[Danger Mouse]

Okay, a question to those who support SBCs: If FD removed all SBCs overnight from the game, what would change for you - could you still win the battles you were winning before, would your gameplay change?

I like the interdiction mechanic. Shield cells allow me to fight interdictions and still be able to jump away from 4 gankers. If they remove shield cells I will have to submit all the time to avoid drive recharge. My fun is diminished.

 

[M00ka]

I like the interdiction mechanic. Shield cells allow me to fight interdictions and still be able to jump away from 4 gankers. If they remove shield cells I will have to submit all the time to avoid drive recharge. My fun is diminished.

But shouldn't a 4v1 always come out in favour of the 4? Otherwise, why have wings at all if numbers don't mean anything! If you need them to escape after interdiction, I must be playing the game wrong, or have a bug. My FSD cools down before the ship(s) that interdicted me, by the time they are in range to engage I have already commenced my FSD jump.

 

[Kastor]

It doesn't even ruin the fight in wings. If you've got any sort of clue what you're doing you'll outfit the ships to compliment each other. So one ship will be designed to reduced shields faster than the Pilot can possibly activate the SCB's and the other will be designed to destroy modules just as fast.

Asking for nerfs to suit an outdated strategy is silly, develop new strategies.

I'm not talking about strategy, I'm talking about core gameplay. The feel and fun of the game. I don't want to win. I just want to not get board during a fight!

As you just implyed, taking out a SCB shield forces players to only run anti shield weapons unless they are in a wing. I like cannons, I like multicannons, I like lasers, I like ALL of the weapons. Reducing me to a subset of them is not my idea of fun.

Sure hard counters are nice, if someones got full PDTs you can't use missiles and if they have full Chaff you can't use turrets, but we're talking about a hard counter to 50% of all weapons.

 

[Jacob Marshall]

...Food for thought...

First of all, Morbad thank you. After 120+ posts covering peoples’ wants there’s finally a post that addresses need; I’ll not quote your post as there’s a lot there, but this is mostly based on what you, and a few others have posted.

I think I agree that a discussion about gameplay is more appropriate than a discussion about balance, or why SCBs should be removed; but (there’s always one), one balance question.

Small Boat (SBt) vs Big Boat (BB): Taking SCBs out of the equation the SBt is, and rightly so, at a disadvantage; the SBt is fighting with a DPS penalty against a BB that that has stronger shields, a stronger hull(?) and more weapons* - while the BB has to contend with a more manoeuvrable, and sometimes faster, opponent with weaker shields that recharge faster. A SBt needs to always think hard before taking on a BB, but with SCBs as they are currently implemented, and the extra module space a BB has, aren’t things tipped even further in the BB’s balance? I know you mention ‘downtime’ for bigger boats, on paper I’d argue that’s the trade-off to having a BB and that in a BB v BB fight, it comes back to experience and skill; I’m open to any counter-argument ofc.

I didn’t know they’d been in-game since Oct. 2014…they’re here to stay people. I believe SCBs, in principle, are a required; all space games need an ‘All power to shields!’ mechanic, I think SCBs are, as per the FD way, a clumsy and ill-considered solution. Personally, I’d have preferred a version of the X-Wing mechanic; dump one or both of your capacitors into shields etc etc.

I agree entirely with what you say Re: SCB vs Stealth, one cannot call for SCBs to be removed from the game without addressing the need for what they represent; an emergency boost to shields. Doing so will simply shift the ‘meta’ to Stealth builds, and instead of SCB-posts we’ll see Stealth-posts.

SCBs are the main thing keeping me away from Open-PvP atm; not because of any imbalance I might perceive but because TTK is dragged out, not due to you being ‘an obnoxious opponent’** but due to a CMDR ‘quaffing a potion’…I’m just not interested in that. I don’t think SCBs are an ‘I Win’ button, but I do believe that, currently, they are boring as all hell. A 10/15-minute fight with an ‘obnoxious opponent’ is a thoroughly different proposition to a 10/15-minute fight vs someone spamming SCBs.

I’m still in a bit of a quandary, I can kind of see why they ought to be in-game, but I can’t see why the need to be in-game…or, I like the idea of them, but I think the implementation is ‘terribad’.

*From a Dev post, if I understood correctly, the BB’s larger weapons do not give it a bonus vs SBts.
** I’d actually enjoy that fight.

 

[defekt]

In the pre-SCB era I saw varied and interesting loadouts battling it out with one another in the skies, each vying for supremacy in their own little way. It wasn't a perfect state of affairs by any means, but at least it had variety.

Then SCBs landed, and the skies quickly filled with cookie-cutter builds nigh on endlessly swirling around one another waiting to see who runs out of shield potions first. (Granted, all games do tend to eventually distil down to a core set of 'viable' builds, but the introduction of SCBs has needlessly accelerated that process.)

What a shame.

To be clear: the principle of SCBs is sound but their implementation has been a net reduction in the overall quality of the ED experience. They need to change.

 

[Danger Mouse]

But shouldn't a 4v1 always come out in favour of the 4? Otherwise, why have wings at all if numbers don't mean anything! If you need them to escape after interdiction, I must be playing the game wrong, or have a bug. My FSD cools down before the ship(s) that interdicted me, by the time they are in range to engage I have already commenced my FSD jump.

Sure I'm in favour of 4v1 gankwings getting 100% kills, if we remove insurance ... As for SCBs in 1v1 combat, doesn't matter to me. It prevents an early cheapshot I guess?

 

[Aleksej]

I think SCBs are fine as they are. However, the amount of ammunition was not tweaked, taking into account the changes done to shield system, e.g. the introduction of shield boosters in 1.2. And with the damage model changes introduced in 1.4 it will get probably much worse. The consequences of these changed will mean that the ship equipped only with the weapons that have limited ammunition are not going to be viable.

 

[rightsideupsidedown]

I know many people are powering a single SCB at a time of a single class. On my ship, and I don't know if it's a bug but, I have two SCBs of different classes active and powered and when I use SCB it seems to consume a charge from each bank producing a stronger recharge than a charge from just one by itself. I can't tell if this is by design but it does give some depth to the builds. Some players don't want to power more than one SCB at a time and will toggle them to leave energy left for more powerful weapons but if you will power multiple at the same time you might get stronger charges that consume the charges faster. Is it a bug or working as intended because I actually think that adds more depth to the SCB design?

There should probably be a delay before an SCB toggled on becomes active for use.

 

[Iskariot]

Goodbye Open til SCB issue is sorted

To me it is a terrible thing that pvp demands dictate the content of the game.
More and more I wish FD had the capacity to develop 2 completely separate modes: solo and pvp(open).
FD could then feel much more free to develop a solo mode without feeling crippled by pvp necessities.
I think solo mode would become a different, enhanced game and much more fun to play very fast, without being burdened and limited by any pvp stuff.
It would open up a lot of new possibilities for the game.

 

[Morbad]

In the pre-SCB era I saw varied and interesting loadouts battling it out with one another in the skies, each vying for supremacy in their own little way. It wasn't a perfect state of affairs by any means, but at least it had variety.

Then SCBs landed, and the skies quickly filled with cookie-cutter builds nigh on endlessly swirling around one another waiting to see who runs out of shield potions first. (Granted, all games do tend to eventually distil down to a core set of 'viable' builds, but the introduction of SCBs has needlessly accelerated that process.)

You do realize that only weeks before SCBs landed that we had no outfitting, right? The only thing you could change on your ships was weapons, and the variety of 'viable builds' even in this regard, was less than it is now. What portion of people habitually engaged in combat weren't running cannon Vipers half the time?

There is a huge spectrum of viable 'builds', right now. Sure, there are some that are dramatically more popular than others, but this is far more often due to laziness and ignorance than any necessity brought on by SCBs.

I can't tell if this is by design

It is.

My "war" FDL powers two B4 SCBs simultaneously, with hardpoints deployed.

My smuggler FDL powers an A2 and a B1 simultaneously.

My short lived battle Python (too slow for the sort of combat I typically engage in) ran 2xA6, 2xB5, and 3x B3, with power priorities setup so that 1xA6+1xB5 were active simultaneously, then the other set, then all three B3s. Fifteen uses total, with a very consistent ~360MJ per use.

Now the Python may seem to have a huge edge because of it's capacity to carry SCBs, but during the short time I used it, and during most combats against other Python while I am flying other ships, the Python need to burn SCBs at a much higher rate to stay in the fight. It's slower, it's bigger, it's usually less agile, and often prioritized higher than other ships. It would be a sitting duck in wing action without the ability to carry and power multiple SCBs simultaneously. Hell, I was running 168 tons of SCBs (at the cost of noticeable manuverability) and the ship was still very vulnerable when outnumbered...more vulnerable than the FDL is with less than one fifth the weight in SCBs.

Anyway, a lot of though and a deep understanding of the systems and mechanisms involved needs to go into configuring a truly effective SCB array. You cannot just pile them on, cycle through them, and hope for the best...not against CMDRs that know what they are doing. You have weigh the pros and cons of mass, power, power priorities, heat load, supplemental utilities, and one's own ability to toggle them off/on efficiently while other CMDRs are pounding on you, waiting for any sign of delay or vulnerability.

To me it is a terrible thing that pvp demands dictate the content of the game.

To me, the fact that there is a difference shows that PvE content is seriously lacking.

In an ideal situation, the higher rank AI would fight with similar skill and tactics to the better CMDRs. The would select the same loadouts and value their ships/lives to the same extent.

Ideally, there should not be a difference when balancing for PvP or PvE, because everyone, NPC or CMDR, should be playing by the same rules and have the same spectrum of capabilities.

 

[W4rSkuLL]

I think reducing the number of Shield Cells you can deploy to 1-2 depending on ship/internal compartment space you have. It will make Elite even more dangerous and the SCB whining is gone. Faster dogfights, and people might die even So there are more adrenaline pumping when you actually know "this might go BOOM" on ya. Well people will whine never the less.

 

[Evil]

Cya OP, comeback later to see if things have changed to your specific requirements, me, im fine with them as they are atm.

 

[Morbad]

I think reducing the number of Shield Cells you can deploy to 1-2 depending on ship/internal compartment space you have. It will make Elite even more dangerous and the SCB whining is gone. Faster dogfights, and people might die even So there are more adrenaline pumping when you actually know "this might go BOOM" on ya. Well people will whine never the less.

I think this will simply prevent most general purpose ships from being used in combat, unless they can be converted to stealth setups, or are fast enough to disengage at will.

None of the combat ships would be significantly penalized from only being able to carry one or two SCBs, and they have the agility to make these last.

Were I limited to one SCB on my FDL, I'd pull the B4s, shove an A5/B5 in the largest internal, then run an A4 shield and stronger boosters than I'm used to. I'd probably also be able to ditch my heatsink launcher for more chaff. I'd have stronger base shields, more chaff, not be all that much worse off on the SCB front. It really wouldn't change much, except that I could get around faster with the A4 rather than an A2 scoop and even have room for cargo racks.

Bigger combat ships would see a small hit to staying power, smaller ones wouldn't change at all, and general purpose ships would largely disappear from battlefields, barring the occasional oddity.

Ironically, I might be even less likely to lose shields, as with mutliple SCBs I have to let my shields get pretty low to not waste charge when using them. With just one, I'd top off more frequently, which might reduce the time I can wage a pure contest of attrition, but would almost certainly prevent my shields from ever failing while I still had SCB charges.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Then all you need is boost and scoot. Point taken...and that is all that I will ever do. And that is all anyone should do! Thanks for the information. Glad no one wants to be able to shock anyone with possible builds...or cause some pain to those that think they have an easy mark.

Don't put words in my mouth. If you want to give up 80% of your cargo to make a battle cow, go for it. If you want to make decent profits and be able to defend yourself, I'm illustrated to you how. For a trader, winning == selling. For a fighter, winning == killing. However, if you are using your suggested build and do not kill your opponent or make a decent profit, don't come crying to the forums. It's nobody's fault but your own.

 

[B1ll Adama]

Personally I would ask for SCB to be either removed or limited to one per load out.

If you set up for PVP aka load up on SCB the only people who will be comfortable engaging will be other CMDR loaded up likewise. This can't make sense, would be much nicer if PVP was an option for all using a more general specd ship... Wouldn't be totally fair of course but I would be a lot more inclined to open if CMDR carrying nothing but potions weren't out there.

Oh and while on the topic of lunacy, shields should charge according to ship/capacitor/powerplant. Why would an anaconda only be able to charge its shields at 1mj if a little sidewinder can do the same. Makes no sense.... It's like a bus charging its battery at the same rate as a Smart Car. Ridiculous. Using this logic the Anaconda should only be able to fire little pulse weapons x2 like the sidewinder? Lunacy I tells ya.

 

[simo2003]

I think Morbad has summed up my thoughts on this matter. Well done, sir.