Goodbye Open til SCB issue is sorted

I think hull values are the key here. A Type 9 or Anaconda should have ridiculous hull values, taking a great deal of effort to destroy outright, especially with small hardpoint weapons. I'd have no issue with a setup where small hardpoint weapons deal less damage than even the current model to the hull of the large ships, but module damage was left alone to encourage disabling over destruction. Considering the upcoming Powerplant change, we're in a good spot to make this happen.

That's the key. People want to be able to defeat a large ship in several small ships, but those in large ships shouldn't be looking at massive insurance bills every time they go out.

If they made some further modifications to how tracking works on large hardpoint weapons, the Vulture would be an excellent choice for hunting Pythons and Anacondas, but would have difficulty with more maneuverable ships.

I agree with some of your arguments regarding the hull. However, I don't agree that more expensive ships shouldn't have massive insurance bills. The insurance is already quite a bonus when you die as it is. Imagine if you had to pay the full cost of your ship to get it back. In addition, FD even offer you some loan if you can't afford the full insurance cost. And, if you can afford a 70M+ Type-9 Heavy or a 140M+ Anaconda, you should be able to pay the 5-10M in insurance, should you lose your ship. I think as it is, pretty much every ship can escape an attacker by boosting and hyperspace jumping away. If you're stupid enough to not have shields on your Type-9, then I'm sorry for you. Shields should be able to buy you time to escape. And if you really can't escape and get destroyed, well, it is what it is...

The only time my Python was destroyed was when I met a real player with a Fer-de-Lance. And it was my entire fault. A couple of deadly mistakes and not running away soon enough. I happily paid the 6M credits in insurance to get it back.
 
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I agree with some of your arguments regarding the hull. However, I don't agree that more expensive ships shouldn't have massive insurance bills. The insurance is already quite a bonus when you die as it is. Imagine if you had to pay the full cost of your ship to get it back. In addition, FD even offer you some loan if you can't afford the full insurance cost. And, if you can afford a 70M+ Type-9 Heavy or a 140M+ Anaconda, you should be able to pay the 5-10M in insurance, should you lose your ship. I think as it is, pretty much every ship can escape an attacker by boosting and hyperspace jumping away. If you're stupid enough to not have shields on your Type-9, then I'm sorry for you. Shields should be able to buy you time to escape. And if you really can't escape and get destroyed, well, it is what it is...

The only time my Python was destroyed was when I met a real player with a Fer-de-Lance. And it was my entire fault. A couple of deadly mistakes and not running away soon enough. I happily paid the 6M credits in insurance to get it back.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have a massive insurance bill if destroyed. But if you reduce the survivability of the large ship to the point that the risk doesn't equal the reward, then you'll see those ships disappearing from the black.

My comment was more in reference to the idea that large ships be more difficult to destroy without SCBs, eliminating the necessity for them, but making them more vulnerable to disabling as now you have a hope of dropping shields to allow you to deal module damage.
 
I'm not saying that they shouldn't have a massive insurance bill if destroyed. But if you reduce the survivability of the large ship to the point that the risk doesn't equal the reward, then you'll see those ships disappearing from the black.

My comment was more in reference to the idea that large ships be more difficult to destroy without SCBs, eliminating the necessity for them, but making them more vulnerable to disabling as now you have a hope of dropping shields to allow you to deal module damage.

I understand your point. It makes sense. If hulls were more in proportion to the size of the ship, then they should take more beating. You sill have options to upgrade your hull with stronger versions, though. And you can add hull re-inforcement packages.
 
I agree with some of your arguments regarding the hull. However, I don't agree that more expensive ships shouldn't have massive insurance bills. The insurance is already quite a bonus when you die as it is. Imagine if you had to pay the full cost of your ship to get it back. In addition, FD even offer you some loan if you can't afford the full insurance cost. And, if you can afford a 70M+ Type-9 Heavy or a 140M+ Anaconda, you should be able to pay the 5-10M in insurance, should you lose your ship. I think as it is, pretty much every ship can escape an attacker by boosting and hyperspace jumping away. If you're stupid enough to not have shields on your Type-9, then I'm sorry for you. Shields should be able to buy you time to escape. And if you really can't escape and get destroyed, well, it is what it is...

The only time my Python was destroyed was when I met a real player with a Fer-de-Lance. And it was my entire fault. A couple of deadly mistakes and not running away soon enough. I happily paid the 6M credits in insurance to get it back.

You can't compare running in a Python to running in a t9.
Basic Trade python has double the speed and more than double the shields. If Sara improves the A.i I think a lot of t9 pilots are going to be In trouble.
 
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You can't compare running in a Python to running in a t9.
Basic Trade python has double the speed and more than double the shields. If Sara improves the A.i I think a lot of t9 pilots are going to be In trouble.

I don't see a huge issue here. The Python is a multipurpose ship and is compared to a dedicated trader. I do think the masslock mechanics need to be changed significantly, and the hull value of the T-9 increased to match the mass of the ship.

The same should apply with the comparison of a FDL and Python though. The FDL is a warship. A Python, unless set up entirely for combat, should be extremely worried by an FDL pulling them over.
 
It depends on the degree, doesn't it? If two smaller combat ships together can take down a Python/Anaconda in 20 seconds, that's obviously bad. But if 3 or 4 smaller combat ships together can take down a Python/Anaconda in ~1 minute, I'd have absolutely no problem with that.

Bigger (or better, rather) ships should, rightly, give you a massive advantage in 1v1, a big advantage in 1v2, and a decreasing advantage thereafter. It shouldn't mean you're invulnerable, even to smaller ships.

The faster, more agile, ships can multiply their offensive capabilities much better than the slower and less agile ones.

Right now, big ships aren't invulnerable to wings...unless handled very wisely by the wing as a whole, they are already a liability. If they lose their largest advantage...the ability to absorb huge amounts of damage...they lose any utility that would justify the rebuy cost they would be far more likely to face.

You are completely missing the fact that 1v1 doesn't translate into 2v2, which doesn't translate into 3v3, and so on.

In wing combat people don't break off into separate duels, unless they are complete morons. They try to concentrate fire on ships to remove them, and their firepower, as quickly as possible, before moving on to the next target.

Ships that will dominate mine in 1v1 combat, will often lose badly in a 4v4.

I posted a video of a 2v2, FDLs vs. Pyton, earlier. 1v1, my FDL would have been driven off by either of those Python. In 2v2, we drove them off, in 3v3, it would have been even more in the FDLs favor, and in 4v4, the Python would have been at serious risk of seeing their ships destroyed, one at a time, before even a high wake was possible (at least for the first one). Even in 2v2, we forced them to burn SCBs at triple to quadruple the rate at which we were using them. With more FDLs, they would have faced shield collapse through SCB activation.

Speed and maneuverability are force multipliers. Groups of fast, agile, ships are more than the sum of their parts.

SCBs are linear, they are a larger pool of damage one can absorb, but they won't make your Anaconda fast enough to stay in range of an FDL, they won't let you turn faster to counter wolf pack tactics where whatever ship you seem to be targeting fights defensively, while all the others become more aggressive. They will give you a shot at survival, and maybe, if you are good, and your opponents less so, the time you need to leverage the advantages your ship does have.

I'd rather they tweaked the damage/shield stats rather than allowed multiple SCBs.

Which would exacerbate the issues SCBs were intended to mitigate.

The problem with multiple SCBs is that it becomes a game of escalation (as others have pointed out). I don't have an SCB, you have 1, you win. I add an SCB, you add two, you win. I max out on SCBs, you have a ship that lets you add 1 more, you win. I buy the same ship, max out on SCBs, then we might have a fair contest. But it's forcing us to discard all the other possible modules / configurations / ships which removes variety from the game and makes it all a bit bland.

I'd rather we had the same "fair contest" where we both have 1 SCB (and lots of other modules) than where we're both maxed out with them and little else.

What other possible modules/combinations? There are exactly two supplemental internal modules that can augment combat capability...SCBs and hull reinforcement. Weight allowing, you are going to take one or the other, and as many as weight and power permit, if you are building a craft meant for combat as it's overriding goal.

"Fair contest" is an illusion. There is always something stacking the odds one way or another...if there weren't battles would be decided by coin toss.

If you want to have 1v1 duels against big ships and think it's in the spirit of "fair contest" to limit the loadout of the larger vessel, no one is stopping you.
 
You can't compare running in a Python to running in a t9.
Basic Trade python has double the speed and more than double the shields. If Sara improves the A.i I think a lot of t9 pilots are going to be In trouble.

Hmmm.. what's the Python designation? A multi-purpose ship, right? What's a T-9? The largest trader, right? So, of course, what you're stating is the obvious. A trader will be good at trading but will not be good in some other aspects, like speed and maneuverability. That's to be expected. How much cargo can you load in a T-9? How much can you load in a Python?Again, comparing multi-purpose to single-purpose is going to be flawed. A multi-purpose, to me, is good at a lot of thing, a jack of all trades but master of none. A single-purpose ship should be good at one thing only. That's how I see it. If you can load 2 or 3 times the amount of cargo in a T-9, of course you shouldn't expect the T-9 to run circles around the Python...
 
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I should note that my 240T cargo capacity trade python has three SCBs on it.

2xB3+1xB2 recharge much more than a single A6 or A5 SCB and cost less cargo space.

You say that without SCB, combat ship would be better in combat that heavy multipurpose? I don't see how it is an issue, it would even be coherent, for once

It's only an issue if you want to see battles that have more than DBS, Couriers, Vultures, and FDLs, with the rare Cobra, Viper, or Clipper oddity, as viable participants.
 
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I agree with Bassman. Using the Diamondback Explorer as an example; the ship has 16 compartments. We should be able to install items in 1 compartment incriments. I hate putting a size 1 item into a size 3 compartment knowing I just wasted 2 compartments. Alternately, I could install a size 8 compartment item knowing that I only have 8 compartments remaining. Having served many years in the U.S. Navy Submarine force, not only do we find a way to get 10 lbs into a 5 lbs sack, but we find a way to get it through a small round hatch.
 
Hmmm.. what's the Python designation? A multi-purpose ship, right? What's a T-9? The largest trader, right? So, of course, what you're stating is the obvious. A trader will be good at trading but will not be good in some other aspects, like speed and maneuverability. That's to be expected. How much cargo can you load in a T-9? How much can you load in a Python?Again, comparing multi-purpose to single-purpose is going to be flawed. A multi-purpose, to me, is good at a lot of thing, a jack of all trades but master of none. A single-purpose ship should be good at one thing only. That's how I see it. If you can load 2 or 3 times the amount of cargo in a T-9, of course you shouldn't expect the T-9 to run circles around the Python...

Well you seemed to be arguing it would be much easier for t9s to runaway if the shield-less t9 pilots just equipped shields then using your python as an example as to how you only ever got killed once. Pythons got double the health and double the speed- slapping a shield on a t9 is't going to let it escape a clipper like a python might.

Is that a problem ? Not really at the moment but if the A.i gets a lot better it might be. Was my point.
 
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I think hull values are the key here. A Type 9 or Anaconda should have ridiculous hull values, taking a great deal of effort to destroy outright, especially with small hardpoint weapons. I'd have no issue with a setup where small hardpoint weapons deal less damage than even the current model to the hull of the large ships, but module damage was left alone to encourage disabling over destruction. Considering the upcoming Powerplant change, we're in a good spot to make this happen.

That's the key. People want to be able to defeat a large ship in several small ships, but those in large ships shouldn't be looking at massive insurance bills every time they go out.

If they made some further modifications to how tracking works on large hardpoint weapons, the Vulture would be an excellent choice for hunting Pythons and Anacondas, but would have difficulty with more maneuverable ships.

On the bolded bit - the way I see it: if an Anaconda takes on 2/3 small,weak ships it should have a very good chance of winning. But if 3 or more Vultures or FDLs gang up on it, it shouldn't be able to just sit there and soak up all that punishment. It's not a capital ship. It should probably have sufficient shields to be able to run (unless masslocked by a large ship), but if it stays and fights against those odds the pilot shouldn't complain about the replacement cost.
 
On the bolded bit - the way I see it: if an Anaconda takes on 2/3 small,weak ships it should have a very good chance of winning. But if 3 or more Vultures or FDLs gang up on it, it shouldn't be able to just sit there and soak up all that punishment. It's not a capital ship. It should probably have sufficient shields to be able to run (unless masslocked by a large ship), but if it stays and fights against those odds the pilot shouldn't complain about the replacement cost.

2 Vultures and a FDL VS one Anaconda.... No way Shield cell Banks will save you.
 
On the bolded bit - the way I see it: if an Anaconda takes on 2/3 small,weak ships it should have a very good chance of winning. But if 3 or more Vultures or FDLs gang up on it, it shouldn't be able to just sit there and soak up all that punishment. It's not a capital ship. It should probably have sufficient shields to be able to run (unless masslocked by a large ship), but if it stays and fights against those odds the pilot shouldn't complain about the replacement cost.

An Anaconda taking on 2 - 3 ships never wins, at best its a draw.
 
On the bolded bit - the way I see it: if an Anaconda takes on 2/3 small,weak ships it should have a very good chance of winning. But if 3 or more Vultures or FDLs gang up on it, it shouldn't be able to just sit there and soak up all that punishment. It's not a capital ship. It should probably have sufficient shields to be able to run (unless masslocked by a large ship), but if it stays and fights against those odds the pilot shouldn't complain about the replacement cost.


A lot of the people who have gotten overly used to spamming SCBs seem to mistake it for one though. :p

It doesn't really seem right that a single module can have as dramatic an impact on a ship's performance as an SCB does. They essentially bump your ship up by three or four size classes in terms of durability, it's too huge a leap.

If you want to be as durable as a capital ship, you should probably be flying a capital ship.

I should note that my 240T cargo capacity trade python has three SCBs on it.

2xB3+1xB2 recharge much more than a single A6 or A5 SCB and cost less cargo space.



It's only an issue if you want to see battles that have more than DBS, Couriers, Vultures, and FDLs, with the rare Cobra, Viper, or Clipper oddity, as viable participants.

So we agree that SCBs are a crutch, we're just debating whether they're a crutch for the player or the ship. ;)

If certain ships truly are non-viable without a massive stack of SCBs (which I highly doubt is the case, I suspect some people here have a rather dubious definition of "viable"), more SCBs are not the solution. A ship's standard shields and armor should be adequate to allow the ship to be reasonably proficient at its role. If that ship needs a 14-fold increase in shield HP to be considered viable, that is a problem that needs to be addressed by buffing the ship. Throwing in a massive crutch item is not the way to fix something like that.
 
An Anaconda taking on 2 - 3 ships never wins, at best its a draw.

Thats what we need to fix then... Bigger ships should be tough on the hull, shields should get more juice and their modules should be protected by the hull/armour/reinforcement packages? They should be able to hold their own if not win outright against a couple of light fighters.

At the moment, the only option the big ships have is to load up on SCB and chug or else leg it. This can't be right?

ok I admit it, I'll never like SCB... Don't play games with potions out of sheer stubbornness. Witcher 3, loved it apart from chugging and hence gave up after a few hours.

Perfect world for for me, Space Sim don't do power up potions.
 
And to pre-emptively answer the question what I would do to prevent the much too swift destruction of big ships:
a) Decent shield regeneration that scales with the class and rating of the shield generator. I am thinking of 1 minute from shields failed to shields at 100%, on an Anaconda.
b) Shield toughness responding linearly with pips to SYS. At the moment, 1 pip basically is the same as 0, 2 hardly does anything at all, 3 is okay and at 4 suddenly you have decent protection. This shouldn't be an all-or-nothing affair, an Anaconda flying with 2 pips to shields should feel a significant boost to its shields toughness compared to one running with 0 pips.
c) Abolish power plant sniping. Depending on how small the "small chance" in 1.4 turns out to be, we may be getting that. Though how automatic the 50% power loss at 0% power plant health plays out in practice, especially without a sufficient number of power priorities to properly fine tune the precise 50% point to ensure maximum possible ship functionality (and not some broad "all weapons offline because that one laser in the one power priority for all weapons brought you to 51%).
d) Make armour tanking, both default and upgraded, and hull packages a worthwhile option. Armour should protect modules, too, and hull packages should increase module hitpoints as well. In my mind, a purely battle-focused Anaconda wouldn't be filled with a dozen SCBs, powering them on and off as they get depleted while the pilot consumes them non-stop. Instead, the ship would sport massive armour and hull reinforcement and could truly keep fighting long past the point when the shields have failed, and coupled with point a), would see its shields reinitialize over the course of such a fight, as opposed to the current situation where for anything Dropship and above, when the shields fail that's it for the entire remaining duration of almost any encounter.

(P.S.: SCBs were added way before the Vulture or FDL.)

Much in line with my own thinking. The shield being the be all and end all of defensive capability makes fights very one dimensional and tends to discourage variety of weapon loadout.
 
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Basically, with PvP, who wins? the best pilot or the ship with the most internal compartments?..the game mechanic is truly awful in this respect, but, as I said..roll on 1.4.

yup, in my opinion FD should completely ditch SCB, or at max have it give ONE charge. I'd rather have it gone altogether though.
 
It's only an issue if you want to see battles that have more than DBS, Couriers, Vultures, and FDLs, with the rare Cobra, Viper, or Clipper oddity, as viable participants.

Not really. If I'm a really good pilot (which I am not), I might be interested in fighting in my Python. If you're not so good and want to use a Python, then maybe you shouldn't combat in the first place. Again, I believe this all boils down to your choice. Of course, since FD designated a limited number of ships as being combat ships, you're more likely to see those in combat areas, which is just normal. I don't see what the problem is.
 
Why not make shields recharge by a percentage so a sidey with grade 2 shields would recharge at the same rate as a Vulture with class 5 shields and a Anny with their shields. This would mean that:

a) Big ships would be harder to kill as shields would recharge better meaning small ships would have to gang up on annys to get through the shields.

b) SCBs would be pointless as everyone would be on a even field, yes some ships would be less manoeuvrable but its the choice you take for that ship. It also means a pack of sideys can still take a anny but a single sidey could do but only if they are lucky.
 
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