Goodbye Open til SCB issue is sorted

I'll self-quote from the other thread, because I don't think the other thread has enough visibility so far. I have been thinking about SCBs some more, and I have an idea for how they could be redesigned to address excessive SCB spamming and slow passive shield regeneration simultaneously, while still preserving the idea that a bigger ship can stack SCBs for greater effect than an smaller ship:

Excellent idea, have some rep.
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This would work and fix numerous issues other CMDRs have. My main "anti-anti-SCB" thought is that with shields so critical to survival, if you got rid of them it would be "biggest shield/ship wins" assuming equal pilot skill. You're just shifting the issue from SCBs to shield size. Next people will complain about shield boosters.
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The two most serious issues this would fix are :
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One, when the shields are gone you're doomed because of the recharge rate. As it stands now that's the main reason for SCB use. Using them to recharge DOWN shields would be huge help in combat, and make them more useful. That's mitigated by ....
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Two, limiting how many you can "fire". Stacking would help in this new scenario, but only for a bit since you'd have to recharge the SCB. Load your ship to the rafters with SCBs, it won't matter as much as it does now. You'll have to recharge those things and the power has to come from somewhere. A Python would only have 4 or 5 SCB "charges" to fire before having to recharge them ( at maybe 4 or 5 minutes a pop ). This power would have to come from either weapons or engines, and is a finite resource in combat. Sure you could divert all power to the SCBs, but you'd limit your DPS, in effect "turtling". As it stands now, you can swap SCBs, and fire another 4 or 5 in under a minute. This dramatically changes the mechanic from a standard survival tactic to one where you might not use it until the shields were down, changing SCBs from a standard 'SPAM' technique to one that allows you to recover from a minor screw up.

I like it.
 
Its not cells that are preventing you from getting the kill. They simply prolong the brawl - which is a good thing.

High wake means that no matter what happens with cell balancing it will be largely irrelevant in terms of killing stuff and only serve to dictate the length of engagements.
 
Posted it in an SCB thread a few weeks back but there are only a small handful of ships that really benefit from SCB tankage. Clipper, Python, Anaconda and Asp off the top of my head. Lower class SCBs on these ships still recharge a lot, whereas ships like the FDL one class SCB down from the shield and you barely get one ring. So, just balance the SCBs on those four ships so that they're not so OP and story done.

I have no problems with SCBs on any other ship and have blown up tanky Clippers in my FDL with four medium lasers and a well timed ram before they even get their first one off.
 
Truth. Choosin de only option nah smart nah rewardin choice.

Borin. Borin to play. Borin to watch. No creativity.

Dem sayin, 'But SCB choosin Cmdr! Dem choosin fight! Smart choosin! Betta fightin!' HA!

Remindin mi. Dat experiment wid Monopoly. Dem give 2 guys dice - Guy A 2 dice. Guy B 1 dice.

Den dey play. Suprise! 2 Dice winnin.

Yuh tell mi now. Guy 1 or Guy 2 be crowin? Actin like dey smarter. Betta. Winna? HA!

Game loaded fram de start. Battle alredi won. No choice here. Only ego an boostin.

Aal de rest respectin. Recognizin truth. SCB - borin. Needin change.

More options so wi gat to tink - reaaaaaly tink - wat dem oders may be packin!

Livin tings up Frontier! Addin ickle spice! Aal gud! :D

"..but mi choosin fight! Mi smart!"

HA! Yuh dull mon. Borin be an dull! :D

I tried Google translate but it said unknown language!
 
Its not cells that are preventing you from getting the kill. They simply prolong the brawl - which is a good thing.

High wake means that no matter what happens with cell balancing it will be largely irrelevant in terms of killing stuff and only serve to dictate the length of engagements.

=) someone gets it but hey lets nerf everyone to hell and back so a few people can fly around in non pvp fit ships wrecking everyone.
 
Its not cells that are preventing you from getting the kill. They simply prolong the brawl - which is a good thing.

High wake means that no matter what happens with cell balancing it will be largely irrelevant in terms of killing stuff and only serve to dictate the length of engagements.
Since engagements are on a timer (FDS cooldown timer, to be precise), extending the brawl skews the fight far in favor of the defender who still has to wait to FDS out.
 
Its not cells that are preventing you from getting the kill. They simply prolong the brawl - which is a good thing.

High wake means that no matter what happens with cell balancing it will be largely irrelevant in terms of killing stuff and only serve to dictate the length of engagements.

I strongly disagree. Excessively long fights ARE in fact the exact issue I have with SCBs. It's like watching a gif on loop. It's fun to begin but becomes very repetitive. You could say the same thing about the game in general but at least different fights have different loadout matchups.

SCBs are the only instance I've seen of a change in a game MULTIPLYING the time to kill instead of just adding to it and for good reason. Making fights say 10% longer is one thing but 2? 5? 10? times longer. That's ridiculous and will change the entire game, and surprise surprise it did.

Some argue it was a okay change. But many argue it was a vastly bad change.
 
I'm generally considered a fairly prolific and successful PvP player

That makes your argument worse. In the vast majority of multiplayer games the actions of the top tier players are actually the easiest ways to find broken mechanics. That you are a top tier player that aggressively defends SCBs provides addition evidence of the problem.

I've studied a lot of multiplayer games over the past five years. In quite a few of them devs pandered to the top and lost much of their player base.

I respect that your a good player and I would probably turn tail as soon as you show up on my scanner. That respect does not carry over to opinions on game design.

If you want some respect for your opinions on game design, please make some constructive suggestions. Stagnation is the heat death of all games and you openly defend it.

Think of something that would solve our problem without ruining your game style and I'd be all ears. To be clear our problem is an average pvp fight is very very long and boring because of SCBs. If your solution involves a non-average level of player skill it's not a solution.
 
That makes your argument worse. In the vast majority of multiplayer games the actions of the top tier players are actually the easiest ways to find broken mechanics. That you are a top tier player that aggressively defends SCBs provides addition evidence of the problem.

I've studied a lot of multiplayer games over the past five years. In quite a few of them devs pandered to the top and lost much of their player base.

I respect that your a good player and I would probably turn tail as soon as you show up on my scanner. That respect does not carry over to opinions on game design.

If you want some respect for your opinions on game design, please make some constructive suggestions. Stagnation is the heat death of all games and you openly defend it.

Think of something that would solve our problem without ruining your game style and I'd be all ears. To be clear our problem is an average pvp fight is very very long and boring because of SCBs. If your solution involves a non-average level of player skill it's not a solution.


+1 Rep! Well said.
 
PvP thought of the day

If the "good" battles are the ones when a player can take another player's shields down despite stacked SCBs...

...and the "bad and boring" battles are the ones when neither player can take out the other's stacked SCBs...


...why do we "need" to stack them?
 
I'll self-quote from the other thread, because I don't think the other thread has enough visibility so far. I have been thinking about SCBs some more, and I have an idea for how they could be redesigned to address excessive SCB spamming and slow passive shield regeneration simultaneously, while still preserving the idea that a bigger ship can stack SCBs for greater effect than an smaller ship:

That's very similar to my suggestion (in my sig), only with sequential recharge instead of simultaneous. I think either approach is at least worth trying.
 
I was fighting a anaconda with my hull kitted silent running dropship. We had nice 10 min fight where I was all the time behind him and using silent running super tactically.
Lucky for him he had 2 turrets which managed to do some damage to me from time to time. Otherwise he couldnt get his nose towards me.

Even that I had the feds on my side ( 4 eagles &2vipers) shooting him all the time we didnt even get 1 ring out of him because using those cursed scb's. I wish I could even had an opportunity to shoot 1% damage to his hull.

All my battles go like that. They make damage to me very slowly and I dont make even a scratch. I really, really like this game but I'm just getting so frustrated about the combat in this game. There is like only one combat build for every ship: pulses and a stack of scb's. There isnt any space for imagination or missiles.

P.s mines are so useless. Barely damage and who the hell decides to fly into them?!
 
The problem is that there is no equivalent for the attack; to compensate for the spamming of shield cells....game design 101 uses the example of rock-paper-scissor (lizard spock), to balance PVP and PVE.

Unless there is a weapon energy booster, that works like the shield cell, giving you a couple of extra powerful shots, which would collapse the shield before that the shield cell may kick in...timing and positioning would make the difference in a fight at that point.
 
In this thread there are a lot of great suggestions about fix the SCB issue.
as i said in other post, i think the SCBanks are just the first of a series of problems regarding Balance issues.

What i wanna say is that you can't simply modify a module behaviour and seeing the game become balanced...and that's why i think (and really hope) internally Devs are making big changes that doesn't affect just SCB, but also hull packages and other modules.

I really hope that CQC will find a way to balance those issues, especially SCB that seems more than a sort of ''hotfix'' for me as implemented now.
 
That makes your argument worse.

If one's experience in the scenarios, or with the items, being debated is non-existent or minimal, how can one comment on what would improve them?

That you are a top tier player that aggressively defends SCBs provides addition evidence of the problem.

I aggressively oppose shortsighted and/or misinformed fixes for potentially nonexistent problems.

In quite a few of them devs pandered to the top and lost much of their player base.

The game doesn't pander to me. I do well at what I do because I am adaptable. The game is not exactly what I would wish it to be, but I play the game that is, not the game I hope for.

I didn't ask for SCBs. I opposed them quite vocally. I didn't ask for explosives to be nerfed. I opposed that quite vocally too. Why? Because I thought the disruption caused by these changes were not going to be worth whatever problems these changes were supposed to fix. I still feel that way, and that is exactly why I am against further nerfing or other radical changes to SCBs. They are well integrated at this point, and the fallout from messing with them would not make anyone happy.

Stagnation is the heat death of all games and you openly defend it.

I openly defend the status quo because I have yet to see a suggestion that wouldn't introduce more problems than they would solve.

That's not stagnation. Those who insist on playing a version of the game that no longer exists, never existed, or does not yet exist, rather than modifying their own behavior in light of what currently is are the one's being stagnant. Many of these people don't seem to have even given the current game a chance...it's disturbingly similar to all those complaining about Open, who have never played in Open, or who gave up on it because of one experience that did not go according to script.

Fixing what isn't broken, forcing people to relearn fundamentals, and arbitrarily changing the rules is not good for a game either.

Think of something that would solve our problem without ruining your game style and I'd be all ears.

My game style is not static. It lies wherever effectiveness and my personal taste of the moment intersect. I decide what I want to do, then I figure out how to make it work with the game I have.

To be clear our problem is an average pvp fight is very very long and boring because of SCBs.

I'm not convinced this is your problem. I'm convinced that a vocal minority have this perception, but perception and reality are often not remotely the same thing.

I doubt the premise that removal of SCBs would appreciably shorten combats. I doubt the premise that removal of SCBs would result in a form of combat any significant portion of the player base would consider to be more exciting.

You find the average PvP fight to be long and boring, but I do not believe SCBs are the cause as much as a scapegoat.

If your solution involves a non-average level of player skill it's not a solution.

If the average player lacks the ability to experiment and learn, no solution will ever be forthcoming for them.

If you want some respect for your opinions on game design, please make some constructive suggestions.

Suggesting solutions to something that I believe has had problems falsely attributed to it would be hypocritical.
 

Scudmungus

Banned
Gud playa gonna adapt.

Gud designer gonna see de flaws in current SCB design.

Unless, dem tinkin dis perfect? Dat nottin needin changin?

Dat additional development time an tinking not makin tings betta?

HA! :D

Maybi gud playa...

Maybi nat so gud a game designin...

..bein too close to de ting. Nat able to remain impartial mi tinkin!
 
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In this thread there are a lot of great suggestions about fix the SCB issue.
as i said in other post, i think the SCBanks are just the first of a series of problems regarding Balance issues.

What i wanna say is that you can't simply modify a module behaviour and seeing the game become balanced...and that's why i think (and really hope) internally Devs are making big changes that doesn't affect just SCB, but also hull packages and other modules.

I really hope that CQC will find a way to balance those issues, especially SCB that seems more than a sort of ''hotfix'' for me as implemented now.

Wanted to rep that last part, but it looks like I already repped you not that long ago :p
SCB's needs to be changed.
I love the feeling when I win a fight against 2-3 ships with 10-20% of shield left. Every fight that lasts too long are boring. Even Star Citizen, a game with a far more nervous gameplay, is actually having problems in Vanduul Swarm because IA are far too hard to hit and you can spend easily 20-30 minutes on a single ACE.

Elite is in a situation that is far worse than that when coming to PVP: It's not a problem of hitting your opponent (because you are hitting him), it's a problem about infinite health. Landing hits again and again just to see a SCB repleneshing your opponent's shields over and over again is, whathever you think, annoying.
If my opponent is so skilled that I can't even land a hit on him, it's fine; he's far more skilled than I am and I respect that. And if I manage not to be hit too often, then the fight would be long AND fun.

In Diablo II, PVP was often done with a simple rule: "no use of health potion"... Why ? Because otherwise fights would last way too long and be boring as hell.

SCBs are killing the fun the way they are implemented right now. We're in a situation where combat oriented ships cannot have a lot of them and where multi-role ships can tank AND give a massive falcon punch at the same time. The whole game as major balancing issues: weapons, prices, heat consumption, missions, rewards etc.
So, It's not really surprising that SCB's also have balancing issues.
 
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Scudmungus

Banned
SCBs are broken the way they are implemented right now.

Mi agreein wid ya.

Just wantin to make sure wi recognize dat SCB not 'broke' - dem doin wat designer wantin dem to do, originally. Word like 'broke' upset som folks. Challenges sense of accomplishment unda current system. Agree wid ya, an mi sayin current system, ''Needin review.'' :D

Truth: Tings moved on. Game maturin.

Truth: SCB, atm, a solution to a problem.

Truth: SCB not be-aal an end-aal solution to a problem.

Way back wen, SCB be de best ting desinger comin up wid in de time dey had. Frontier in gud place atm. Gat time to look at de fightin.
 
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