I think the Minsk agreement of this week, will not resist at the time which passes
General / Off-Topic Gorbatchev : Ukraine crsis could trigger Nuclear war.
- Thread starter Pomerlaw
- Start date
I doubt that it will change anything but let's be optimistic and hope for the best. Fingers crossed.
The fights increased in intensity friday. But the ceasefire is only for Sunday. This is not correctly engaged ...
I hope you don't truly believe that. Because bullying of 3/4 of the world by 1/4 of ruthless colonial powers isn't something that you can call "innovation". And it didn't stopped because somebody said so and wrote some "corrected" history books about that. It still quite valid, it happens right now in Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan... There's countless countries with puppet governments controlled by colonial masters and acting in the interest of the masters and not their own people. It happened before and it will continue today. It didn't started from the "west", it's old like human nature itself and quite possibly might predate Roman Empire itself. But it is something that capitalist countries adapted quite well. Just look at the ongoing conflicts and look at the companies that getting their gain from it? Whom are they belong?
I do believe that, quite sincerely. Industrialisation and the massive wealth it brought didn't come about because of colonialism, it happened the other way round. Without the wealth, there can be no expansion of power. Even if you'd been brought up being taught a different history from me, I'd have thought that would be uncontroversial. That's not to say the colonial possessions didn't add to the power and wealth, but they certainly weren't the starting point and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
Empire may be as old as civilisation itself but since nationalism and the nation-state it has become increasingly difficult to derive substantial benefits from it; anyone arguing there is a financial incentive to invade Afghanistan doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Iraq probably fits your model of history better but your picture of autocratic regimes serving colonial masters is pure fantasy. The autocrats serve themselves, pure and simple. If their interests concide with those of a larger, richer nation then they may have an alliance of convenience, but this is not restricted to the western nations, it is a pattern that is repeated at all levels of politics throughout history.
Formal doubt may be appropriate when considering who is commiting more atrocities in the disputed areas today, or around the events that led to the end of the pro-Russian government, but on the matter of the Malaysian airliner it is an insult to the bereaved families that Mr Putin steadfastly denies any responsibiliy. Are you seriously expecting anyone to believe that a missile system capable of shooting down a plane travelling at an altitude of 10km or more is the sort of thing that the separatists could have found floating around for sale at a military depot near the border? This isn't a box of AK's or RPG's. Either by negligence or deliberate policy someone high up in Russian politics created the conditions for this to happen by supplying major military assets to rebel groups they claim not to have any control over. Current news reports mention the movement of heavy artillery and tanks ahead of Sunday's proposed 'ceasefire'. Is this too happening against Mr Putin's will?
I haven't thrown any 'hasty accusations' as you claim; there simply aren't any reasonable alternative explanations for the facts; namely that a civilian airliner was shot down within range of the disputed area by a weapon that is not available outside of large nations. I'm not accusing Putin of being responsible for everything bad in the world, I'm accusing him of bullying Ukraine and supplying heavy weapons to groups who have no consideration for innocent human life. Those to claim to care about the bloodshed but don't want to look at what is driving it aren't doing anyone any good and their words don't impress me at all. The killing will only end when the separatists think they can gain no more ground by fighting, and while the Russian military is helping them that won't be for a long time.
Damn ! Novice in a Sidewinder ! I would never have believed ! Where is the Tsar !
You can say that you don't agree, you can elaborate why. And I will respect your point of view even if I didn't agree with it. But "my fantasy"? Autocrats? Power? Wealth? What are you talking about? "The other way", yup. Like treaty of Amity and Commerce
You can "Industrialise" all you want then And there's plenty of such examples.There is not much in terms of registered industry in Afghanistan, true. But it was noted that drug production there increased exponentially. Not something worth of notice, sure.
Regarding MH 17 - I don't know. I just want to point out few things though. It seems to me that investigation is delayed beyond any reason and there is no conclusive facts at the moment to claim anything. Like at all. If you think otherwise - let's agree to disagree. And just want to remind you about Siberia Airlines Flight 1812. That's all.
All in all I don't enjoy having a conversation with you so I will not support it further.
I would be very surprised if Putin abandons Marioupol, because it is a strategic bridgehead for the supplying of the Crimea. It would be very surprising
Crimea will never go back to Ukraine.
I can't believe some folks are still denying Putin gives weapons to Pro-Russians. It isn't an official invasion of course, but it serves him well. I wonder what is their explanations for the gains they do on the official army of Ukraine, and for the high tech weapons they have? Pictures are all over the internet. Also seems the Kremlin likes to call the new territories gain in Ukraine "new Russia".
Blaming the West works up to a point... I know I do, I was all on Putin's side in the Syria situation... And the West did finally back down, so I guess some lessons were learned.
I just hope the ceasefire will last.
Seems to be effective mostly right now, except in Debaltseve.
I can't believe some folks are still denying Putin gives weapons to Pro-Russians. It isn't an official invasion of course, but it serves him well. I wonder what is their explanations for the gains they do on the official army of Ukraine, and for the high tech weapons they have? Pictures are all over the internet. Also seems the Kremlin likes to call the new territories gain in Ukraine "new Russia".
Blaming the West works up to a point... I know I do, I was all on Putin's side in the Syria situation... And the West did finally back down, so I guess some lessons were learned.
I just hope the ceasefire will last.
Seems to be effective mostly right now, except in Debaltseve.
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Ultimately, this is what Putin could do
Perhaps this ?
The mistake the west has made in Ukraine is the same as that made in ME, namely that the west sought to impose/support the implementation of pro west reforms which antagonised neighbours.
The realities are that countries such as Russia cannot accept a hostile close neighbour. America reacted with enormous hostility toward governments it didn't approve of in Cuba, Nicaragua, and El Salvador in particular.
It's perhaps interesting that the consequences of these repeated cack handed actions in ME and E Europe are affecting America itself, least!
P
Looking at it from Finland, I'm far less impressed. Russia doesn't have the economic strength for a real war, and it would be financially ruinous for everybody. Putin is by many accounts the richest person in the world, and has been bleeding Russia dry with his oligarch buddies.
The nationalistic bluster, persecution of gays, blaming "foreign agents" for everything... These are not signs of strength, but weakness. Ukraine moving towards the West came as a surprise, and the gamble of annexing land from Ukraine, and destabilising the nation smacks much more of impulsive reactions than some long thought out master plan.
Russia is in dire straights right now, and Putin has thrown away at least 15 years worth of trust and progress. Once again, the Russian people have to pay for the sins of bad leaders...
Looking at it from Finland, I'm far less impressed. Russia doesn't have the economic strength for a real war, and it would be financially ruinous for everybody. Putin is by many accounts the richest person in the world, and has been bleeding Russia dry with his oligarch buddies.
The nationalistic bluster, persecution of gays, blaming "foreign agents" for everything... These are not signs of strength, but weakness. Ukraine moving towards the West came as a surprise, and the gamble of annexing land from Ukraine, and destabilising the nation smacks much more of impulsive reactions than some long thought out master plan.
Russia is in dire straights right now, and Putin has thrown away at least 15 years worth of trust and progress. Once again, the Russian people have to pay for the sins of bad leaders...
There is much truth in what you say. Putin has asked at his people to eat less. The Russia is nevertheless a great terrible land. And is capable of inflicting of terrible damage to its enemies
I don't mean to minimise it. I have a lot of sympathy for the Russian people, who seem to get dealt bad cards by history time and again. It's very sad that Putin chose to glorify the empires of old, rather than to build a prosperous future. Both the EU and Russia could benefit from close ties, cooperation and trade. Instead we have this current mess.
What was the point in annexing Crimea anyway? One million people, on an underdeveloped peninsula which now needs a whole new set of infrastructure. Eroding the security apparatus of Europe, and driving away investment into Russia.
It makes no sense. it makes me think the internal situation must be very bad indeed, if the people need to be pointed at an outside enemy like this.
yup, that pretty much sums things up completely.. no matter how they try to spin it, whether from fear, ignorance or a desire for power, it all amounts to the same thing.. arrogant, political bullies, manouvering for the right to dominate others, so they can feel secure in their positions. It is right that those who can, should seek to help those that cant, but time and time again the 'great powers' have shown that they are motivated more so by fear or greed, than by altruism, and use fear and deception as a means to influence and validate thier actions.. some powers more than others i should add.
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