Griefers make open impossible, and how easy the solution is.

lenna

lenna
Stigbob said:
It is already regulated very heavily.
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Such regulation should ideally be independent, but unfortunately it rarely is truly independent which means that sometimes things may get suppressed when perhaps they should not be and visa versa.

Stigbob said:
Too much time and hassle, just bin the cheats by automated processes wherever possible.
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The issue is not just with cheats, and cheats rely on loop holes and bugs in the main - fix those and the cheats would stop working. Unfortunately, it is not as easy as that in all cases.

Automated detection tools are not necessarily infallible, but if you can detect the cheat then you should be able to fix the issues that allow cheating to occur.

Stigbob said:
Naming and shaming is fine anywhere other than here except when its malicious. The cheats are the problem not talking about them.
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Naming and shaming is never fine, there is no excuse for it. For starters, the person engaging in namshaming (for short) may be exasperating a problem rather than being part of the solution.

As for cheating, if you know of an actual means of cheating then it should be reported to FD essentially as a bug. No software developer is infallible, and it is near impossible to 100% guarantee that any software system of sufficient complexity is without bugs. If you "suspect" an individual of cheating, then there is a means for reporting them without engaging in namshaming.

This particular thread is about griefing though, and suspected griefers should be reported - the same goes for any observed suspected EULA/ToS breach.
 
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Marbat

Marbat
Devs should just take their weapons away and force them to scan and map 1000 systems before being able to get weapons back. Let them fly defenseless for awhile.
 

Sup3rfluiD

Sup3rfluiD
Bigmaec said:
Gone. Those vids tend to vanish quite fast 🙄
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How rediculous.
I mean how absolutely awful it would be for the community to actually see for themselves how blatant some of the cheating is in this game!

Kudos for at least trying to get it out there B'mc.

Sometimes it makes me wonder just who the most delicate petals are, the publically shamed, or the Dev Eula that hides thier actions.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
Arguendo
The issue with N&S videos is where to draw the line I think. While it would be good for quite a few people to actually see how much cheating goes on, there will always be videos fronted as "Baaa. Haxor!!!1!1!!!!" while they in reality are witchhunts and not actual footage of a cheater, but just someone the poster doesn't like for whatever reason.
Separating actual informational videos from bogus ones, or ones based on personal feuds, would make moderating a nightmare. So FDev's stance on the forums is quite easy: No N&S / Witchhunt videos whatsoever. Send tickets and pray that something gets done about it 🤷‍♀️

Agree or disagree, those are the Forum Rules.
 

M00ka

M00ka
Arguendo said:
The issue with N&S videos is where to draw the line I think. While it would be good for quite a few people to actually see how much cheating goes on, there will always be videos fronted as "Baaa. Haxor!!!1!1!!!!" while they in reality are witchhunts and not actual footage of a cheater, but just someone the poster doesn't like for whatever reason.
Separating actual informational videos from bogus ones, or ones based on personal feuds, would make moderating a nightmare. So FDev's stance on the forums is quite easy: No N&S / Witchhunt videos whatsoever. Send tickets and pray that something gets done about it 🤷‍♀️

Agree or disagree, those are the Forum Rules.
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Thank you for that. So lets say there was a video showing someone hacking the game. If they posted it here as a 'look, a haxor' post, it would be removed quickly due to the name and shame rule right? But is the same person posted the same video, with no explanation except a vague reference about a great PvP bout would it be allowed?
 

Vandaahl

Vandaahl
Sup3rfluiD said:
How rediculous.
I mean how absolutely awful it would be for the community to actually see for themselves how blatant some of the cheating is in this game!

Kudos for at least trying to get it out there B'mc.

Sometimes it makes me wonder just who the most delicate petals are, the publically shamed, or the Dev Eula that hides thier actions.
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Point is, putting the stuff up here is more (unintentionally, of course) glorifying than shaming. The reason why they do it, and it was displayed in the footage, is attention and attention only. Why give them what they want?

I've been modding for a (quite popular back then) tracker board supporting a first person shooter couple of years back, and they had the same policy there, same as the official board of the game.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
Arguendo
M00ka said:
Thank you for that. So lets say there was a video showing someone hacking the game. If they posted it here as a 'look, a haxor' post, it would be removed quickly due to the name and shame rule right? But is the same person posted the same video, with no explanation except a vague reference about a great PvP bout would it be allowed?
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First a note: I don't moderate DD. I moderate one very specific section of the forums, so in these parts I am just a regular user like everyone else.
With that caveat in place;

The description of the video is largely irrelevant imo. The content of it is what's important. In my section I've moderated quite a few videos based on the content, regardless of how benign the description itself was. So my answer would be no, if it shows cheating it will be removed, as it's still considered naming and shaming.
 

M00ka

M00ka
Arguendo said:
First a note: I don't moderate DD. I moderate one very specific section of the forums, so in these parts I am just a regular user like everyone else.
With that caveat in place;

The description of the video is largely irrelevant imo. The content of it is what's important. In my section I've moderated quite a few videos based on the content, regardless of how benign the description itself was. So my answer would be no, if it shows cheating it will be removed, as it's still considered naming and shaming.
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Fair enough, that makes sense - thank you.
 

galahad2069

G
Arguendo said:
...
The description of the video is largely irrelevant imo. The content of it is what's important.
...
So my answer would be no, if it shows cheating it will be removed, as it's still considered naming and shaming.
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So basically you'll still have to watch all the vids posted here and judge whether what it shows is actually cheating or not?

Isn't it the same moderator's nightmare the forum rules are there to help you avoid?

For instance, I have a video showing a CMDR waking inside a station. I never posted it anywhere saying it was a cheat, no matter how suspicious it was, because technically it might have been a bug (not very likely, but still).

If I had posted it here with "look at this cute bug" in the description and you had removed it, wouldn't it have been a confirmation of a cheat?
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
Arguendo
galahad2069 said:
So basically you'll still have to watch all the vids posted here and judge whether what it shows is actually cheating or not?
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You'd be surprised at how many posts get reported before a mod has the time to check them out ;)

I am not going to go into hypotheticals about which videos will be removed and which won't, as that will just lead to more hypotheticals. Generally speaking, if you think someone has cheated, don't post a video of it, but rather file a ticket. If you think there's a bug in the game, again, file a ticket use the issue tracker.

EDIT: Forgot all about the issue tracker. My bad :oops:
 
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[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
Am on phone and to be honest to fully explain the issue as ibsee it would take to long to explain.
But for me the issue with PC gaming especially in general is one of trust that cheaters will be dealt with and that it just isn't worth it to be caught cheating. Once that trust is gone it is hard to get back. We all know some people have been punished but the feeling I get is that it is very few.

Therefore people lash out in the only way they feel they can , by naming and shaming.

What amplifies it is when certain segments of the community post videos of them blowing up countless numbers of players and we know for a fact these players were caught cheating red handed not so long ago.

Again this is FDs house so I don't name players here and I would advise anyone else not to as well ... But on external sites....... Fair game.

I have seen lists of cmdrs which are claimed to be kill on site lists, videos labelling players as care Bears etc etc so why not people cheating?.

And as for legal issues of impartiality.... This isn't criminal court. Of course FD can still ban a player obviously cheating even if they were posted online doing it.
A few years ago a Berk in a Ferrari F40 put a video of himself doing almost 200mph on a public road. It was that video used to convict him (maybe the vid is still up I dunno)
 

lenna

lenna
Arguendo said:
You'd be surprised at how many posts get reported before a mod has the time to check them out ;)

I am not going to go into hypotheticals about which videos will be removed and which won't, as that will just lead to more hypotheticals. Generally speaking, if you think someone has cheated, don't post a video of it, but rather file a ticket. If you think there's a bug in the game, again, file a ticket.
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EULA said:
7.3.3 By accepting these terms and conditions you hereby agree that any information collected as described in Clause 7.3.2 that is deemed to be illegal or to contravene the rights of Frontier, our employees, customers, or any other individual during Use of the Game or the Online Features may be reported to the police or other appropriate authorities, and; ii) agree to be bound by the Community Codes of Conduct for the Game, the latest version of which may be viewed here.
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Code of Conduct said:
Witch-hunts / Mob Mentality
We do not allow the use of any of our communications systems to be used for 'witch-hunts' or mob-mentality griefing that leads to targeted harassment. Pursuing such vendettas on our platform(s) or within our games, or attempting to organise such through Frontier channels, is not permitted.

(Note that this criterion relates to a distinct issue, separate from standard player/group conflicts and engagement within our games which is often an inherent aspect of multiplayer gaming.)

Naming and Shaming
The act of publicly naming an individual or group of players for the purpose of ridiculing or making accusations is prohibited. We do not allow such discussions, or any other method of communication deemed to be naming and shaming on Frontier channels.

If you wish to report the conduct of another player, please do so privately using the in-game methods we provide. Alternatively, contact our customer service or forum moderation team for assistance.
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Given the above it is quite clear the intent is to let FD support deal with matters that could count as an EULA/CoC/ToS breach, and while they can not stop you from doing so on media channels outside of their control they are clearly opposed to it and if they discover it happening they are well within their rights to impose sanctions (in-game and/or on their media channels) against anyone engaging in "Naming and Shaming" (especially if it results in a witch hunt in-game or on their media channels).

Note: "Naming and Shaming" prohibitions include both "ridicule" and "accusations".

FTR...
Code of Conduct said:
Elite Dangerous Series - In-game reports
If you wish to report another player for violating the code of conduct, you can find the latest instructions at this URL: https://support.frontier.co.uk/kb/faq.php?id=184

Elite Dangerous Series - In-game blocking
If you wish to block another player from communicating with you, you can find the latest instructions at this URL: https://support.frontier.co.uk/kb/faq.php?id=405
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CMDR Big Mike

CMDR Big Mike
The “naming and shaming” narrowly applies to channels controlled by frontier.

however, you can do it on other platforms/social media. To go a step further, I do not think there is any reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to a CMDR’s conduct in the game. Playing in open is consenting to play with a world wide audience. People are free to discuss your in game name and actions.
 
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