Griefers make open impossible, and how easy the solution is.

[Eliza]

On topic:

There is no "simple sollution" to avoid G'n'G. It's the same within any mmo that includes beeing "killed" by another player. A good example is, like often stated, EvEOnline. CCP has'a pretty decent anti-griefing-mechanic ("Concord"), but even Concord can't prevent "unconsensual" pvp to the fullest.

I can only advice new commanders to switch into another mode as soon as they intend to leave the starter-zone. Travel about 30-40Lys in solo/pg.
Find a squad with the tags "PvE" and "PvP". In those squads you will find people who are playing the bgs and have the one or the other experienced PvPer in their rows, where you get decent tips how brace yourself.

Search the forums, reddit, YouTube to get really good tips how to survive in Open.

Another choice is: Stick to a pg like Mobius.

Never ever get into the illusion, that FDev will EVER change Open in a way that G'n'G won't happen again.

Calling Open as "toxic" and full of brainless scum just isn't true. Besides my experience in EvEOnline, Elite has one of the greatest player-communities I've ever met. Although we are a bit silent ingame because of the up chat-system.

 

[M00ka]

On topic:

There is no "simple sollution" to avoid G'n'G. It's the same within any mmo that includes beeing "killed" by another player. A good example is, like often stated, EvEOnline. CCP has'a pretty decent anti-griefing-mechanic ("Concord"), but even Concord can't prevent "unconsensual" pvp to the fullest.

I can only advice new commanders to switch into another mode as soon as they intend to leave the starter-zone. Travel about 30-40Lys in solo/pg.
Find a squad with the tags "PvE" and "PvP". In those squads you will find people who are playing the bgs and have the one or the other experienced PvPer in their rows, where you get decent tips how brace yourself.

Search the forums, reddit, YouTube to get really good tips how to survive in Open.

Another choice is: Stick to a pg like Mobius.

Never ever get into the illusion, that FDev will EVER change Open in a way that G'n'G won't happen again.

Calling Open as "toxic" and full of brainless scum just isn't true. Besides my experience in EvEOnline, Elite has one of the greatest player-communities I've ever met. Although we are a bit silent ingame because of the up chat-system.

I understand what you are saying and why, you are after all a player who enjoys PvP.

But my personal opinion is on a slightly different slant. I honestly don't think most non PvP players get upset at the occasional gank/grief in Open, if they are like me they probably expect it and will chastise themselves first and foremost for putting themselves in that situation when they knew they could have avoided it. What I think they get upset with is the blatant immunity that the gankers/griefers have, there is no penalty, there is no downside to them seal clubbing, there are no consequences to their actions. For them it is all positive, they farm the salt, they know they just ruined some poor Commander's day and if their victim complains, all the better, more salt is produced. If you break it down, the worst, the absolute worst think that can happen to a griefer/ganker is that their ship gets blown up and they face the rebuy screen. Big deal, it is only credits. Now have a look at what their victim can lose: credits and if they are beginners, can mean a lot; mission cargo; any cargo; exploration data; bounties - well you know as well as I do. The victim always has more to lose and the instigator knows this and knows that any action is always in their favour.

What I would like to see is more consequences for their actions. If a Commander attacks another Commander and the one being attacked isn't pledged to the wrong faction, isn't doing something that someone's thinks will impact their BGS efforts (biggest excuse going in the game for wholesale murder lol), and most of all, is not wanted, then the attack should suffer some consequences IF they are not successful. Personally, and I know this will twist the knickers of many here, I would like to see the following consequences:

• If the instigator is Elite ranked, they lose access to Shinrarta Dezhra for a set time. Don't care if it is their home base and all their ships are there, they can pay for them to be relocated to another base for the duration of their expulsion.
• Lose access to engineers for the same set time, after all these Engineers are fussy so and so's, we all have to be invited just to make the initial contact. They won't want their work sullied by being used by seal clubbers.
• Any engineered or upgraded modules on their ship are automatically lost, the only two options available to them on the rebuy screen is either the free Sidewider or the replacement of the basic E rated ship that was destroyed.

Of course this would never happen, the outpouring of salt would bury the forums, but I can dream. Yes I know that there are loopholes, like station ramming that would punish the innocent but I also bet that if some murderhobo or seal clubber knew that they would lose their precious G5 everything ship if they were destroyed they may think twice about their actions.

 

[Uvelius Sång]

Calling Open as "toxic" and full of brainless scum just isn't true. Besides my experience in EvEOnline, Elite has one of the greatest player-communities I've ever met.

I can second that. Flying for years as a Fuel Rat in Open, and even enjoying PvP in one of the bigger PvP groups, I generally found people being very nice, overall.
It just gets a bit tricky at CGs and at hotspots like Founder's, where it can become annoying at times. For that, I would heavily vote for a "remembering", faction-wide enforcement system with well-thought-through punishment and judgement mechanics. And might that just be to add some more credibility to "police" and some more gripping game content ...

EDIT Oh, and an actually working convoy system would be ground-shaking ... and probably impossible with the fighting mechanics in ED.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Note to all: please discuss the topic and not the participants. Failure to comply will result in reply ban(s); warning(s) and / or thread closure.

 

[Eliza]

I understand what you are saying and why, you are after all a player who enjoys PvP.

But my personal opinion is on a slightly different slant. I honestly don't think most non PvP players get upset at the occasional gank/grief in Open, if they are like me they probably expect it and will chastise themselves first and foremost for putting themselves in that situation when they knew they could have avoided it. What I think they get upset with is the blatant immunity that the gankers/griefers have, there is no penalty, there is no downside to them seal clubbing, there are no consequences to their actions. For them it is all positive, they farm the salt, they know they just ruined some poor Commander's day and if their victim complains, all the better, more salt is produced. If you break it down, the worst, the absolute worst think that can happen to a griefer/ganker is that their ship gets blown up and they face the rebuy screen. Big deal, it is only credits. Now have a look at what their victim can lose: credits and if they are beginners, can mean a lot; mission cargo; any cargo; exploration data; bounties - well you know as well as I do. The victim always has more to lose and the instigator knows this and knows that any action is always in their favour.

What I would like to see is more consequences for their actions. If a Commander attacks another Commander and the one being attacked isn't pledged to the wrong faction, isn't doing something that someone's thinks will impact their BGS efforts (biggest excuse going in the game for wholesale murder lol), and most of all, is not wanted, then the attack should suffer some consequences IF they are not successful. Personally, and I know this will twist the knickers of many here, I would like to see the following consequences:

• If the instigator is Elite ranked, they lose access to Shinrarta Dezhra for a set time. Don't care if it is their home base and all their ships are there, they can pay for them to be relocated to another base for the duration of their expulsion.
• Lose access to engineers for the same set time, after all these Engineers are fussy so and so's, we all have to be invited just to make the initial contact. They won't want their work sullied by being used by seal clubbers.
• Any engineered or upgraded modules on their ship are automatically lost, the only two options available to them on the rebuy screen is either the free Sidewider or the replacement of the basic E rated ship that was destroyed.

Of course this would never happen, the outpouring of salt would bury the forums, but I can dream. Yes I know that there are loopholes, like station ramming that would punish the innocent but I also bet that if some murderhobo or seal clubber knew that they would lose their precious G5 everything ship if they were destroyed they may think twice about their actions.

Totally on your side. I can only, once again, refer to EvEOnline C&P: You have no Bounty-Cap and if you get destroyed, your ship is....DESTROYED...gone...forever...
Alone that would severly hinder the clubbers to do their hobbie. But yeah, the salt would bury the forum.
But this is Elite...and we both know, that FDev won't ever establish such "harsh" punishment into the game (for whatever reason, I wonder myself).

 

[Eliza]

I can second that. Flying for years as a Fuel Rat in Open, and even enjoying PvP in one of the bigger PvP groups, I generally found people being very nice, overall.
It just gets a bit tricky at CGs and at hotspots like Founder's, where it can become annoying at times. For that, I would heavily vote for a "remembering", faction-wide enforcement system with well-thought-through punishment and judgement mechanics. And might that just be to add some more credibility to "police" and some more gripping game content ...

EDIT Oh, and an actually working convoy system would be ground-shaking ... and probably impossible with the fighting mechanics in ED.

The fight-mechanics are not to blame...they are great...the P2P-mechanics are the bottleneck that prevents us to do MASSIVE multiplayer.

 

[Eliza]

I can think of another "simple sollution (tm) ":

Get rid of the "Hollow Squares". Would make the clubber's life a LITTLE harder and the Seal's life a BIT safer.

 

[Linnunrata]

Get rid of the "Hollow Squares". Would make the clubber's life a LITTLE harder and the Seal's life a BIT safer.

What? On the contrary. A ganker can sit in a position near the star and target all new contacts for CMDR designation. The prey jumping to the system would lose an important danger cue.

 

[Eliza]

What? On the contrary. A ganker can sit in a position near the star and target all new contacts for CMDR designation. The prey jumping to the system would lose an important danger cue.

Or they use CTRL+B for bandwidth, then you will know if a potential predator is waiting for you in the next system. Hollow Squares or not, if you don't develop situational awareness and generall guidelines how to approach your destination (e.g. don't fly the direct route) no hollow square indicator will safe you from beeing 'dicted.

Without the hollow squares you are very likely to develop such a behaviour even within PvE, because then you NEVER can be sure, if you're beeing about to get 'dicted or not. That keeps the blood rushing and the senses sharp, literally.

 

[Linnunrata]

Without the hollow squares you are very likely to develop such a behaviour even within PvE, because then you NEVER can be sure, if you're beeing about to get 'dicted or not. That keeps the blood rushing and the senses sharp, literally.

No offense, but that's like just having an overcomplicated reason why you want to make life miserable for peaceful players. It's just million times more useful for me to see all potentially dangerous targets as hollow squares in the radar rather than some abstract "but but the gankers will have to check more targets".

 

[Deleted member 182079]

No offense, but that's like just having an overcomplicated reason why you want to make life miserable for peaceful players. It's just million times more useful for me to see all potentially dangerous targets as hollow squares in the radar rather than some abstract "but but the gankers will have to check more targets".

Yeah I must say I agree with this. The odds would still be in the attacker's favour because of CMDR prefix, ship names (especially noobs don't tend to name their ships which is an easy one to spot, and the game also tends to assign mundane names from a not that big selection as I notice a fair bit of repetition), or holo-me icons. You can also derive human targets from the comms panel.

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

I understand what you are saying and why, you are after all a player who enjoys PvP.

But my personal opinion is on a slightly different slant. I honestly don't think most non PvP players get upset at the occasional gank/grief in Open, if they are like me they probably expect it and will chastise themselves first and foremost for putting themselves in that situation when they knew they could have avoided it. What I think they get upset with is the blatant immunity that the gankers/griefers have, there is no penalty, there is no downside to them seal clubbing, there are no consequences to their actions. For them it is all positive, they farm the salt, they know they just ruined some poor Commander's day and if their victim complains, all the better, more salt is produced. If you break it down, the worst, the absolute worst think that can happen to a griefer/ganker is that their ship gets blown up and they face the rebuy screen. Big deal, it is only credits. Now have a look at what their victim can lose: credits and if they are beginners, can mean a lot; mission cargo; any cargo; exploration data; bounties - well you know as well as I do. The victim always has more to lose and the instigator knows this and knows that any action is always in their favour.

What I would like to see is more consequences for their actions. If a Commander attacks another Commander and the one being attacked isn't pledged to the wrong faction, isn't doing something that someone's thinks will impact their BGS efforts (biggest excuse going in the game for wholesale murder lol), and most of all, is not wanted, then the attack should suffer some consequences IF they are not successful. Personally, and I know this will twist the knickers of many here, I would like to see the following consequences:

• If the instigator is Elite ranked, they lose access to Shinrarta Dezhra for a set time. Don't care if it is their home base and all their ships are there, they can pay for them to be relocated to another base for the duration of their expulsion.
• Lose access to engineers for the same set time, after all these Engineers are fussy so and so's, we all have to be invited just to make the initial contact. They won't want their work sullied by being used by seal clubbers.
• Any engineered or upgraded modules on their ship are automatically lost, the only two options available to them on the rebuy screen is either the free Sidewider or the replacement of the basic E rated ship that was destroyed.

Of course this would never happen, the outpouring of salt would bury the forums, but I can dream. Yes I know that there are loopholes, like station ramming that would punish the innocent but I also bet that if some murderhobo or seal clubber knew that they would lose their precious G5 everything ship if they were destroyed they may think twice about their actions.

Its not often that we agree but much of this i think is spot on.
My only reservation is to restricting access to Shinrarta as a consequence.

This is only my personal opinion so doesnt count for much but here goes;
Where should the "gankers" go?
This is not baiting, or flaming for which I've been suitably chastised, but a legitimate question.
For some players the whole concept of this game is to fight each and every other player they meet.
I know this is not popular but for many, and it seems there are many, this IS the drawcard to the game. Now motives may vary from rp to eliciting white knight responses right through to just basic a**-hattery, but in all cases the combat with other , real life players is what they find appealing.

Surely, out of the millions of systems on offer in this galaxy its not a huge stretch to expect 6-8 systems for these players to frequent for their own version of fun.

To my mind Shiny is a perfect place for them as it is locked to all but elite ranked players thereby completely excluding the seal clubbing element that many find so abhorrent.

I have never ganked, in over 30k kills, outside organized pvp bouts i have killed only 3 other players who were being d*cks on coms, and i absolutely love the danger that these combative players bring to the game. Without them i would probably leave.

I cant believe I'm the only one one who feels this way.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Its not often that we agree but much of this i think is spot on.
My only reservation is to restricting access to Shinrarta as a consequence.

This is only my personal opinion so doesnt count for much but here goes;
Where should the "gankers" go?
This is not baiting, or flaming for which I've been suitably chastised, but a legitimate question.
For some players the whole concept of this game is to fight each and every other player they meet.
I know this is not popular but for many, and it seems there are many, this IS the drawcard to the game. Now motives may vary from rp to eliciting white knight responses right through to just basic a**-hattery, but in all cases the combat with other , real life players is what they find appealing.

Surely, out of the millions of systems on offer in this galaxy its not a huge stretch to expect 6-8 systems for these players to frequent for their own version of fun.

To my mind Shiny is a perfect place for them as it is locked to all but elite ranked players thereby completely excluding the seal clubbing element that many find so abhorrent.

I have never ganked, in over 30k kills, outside organized pvp bouts i have killed only 3 other players who were being d*cks on coms, and i absolutely love the danger that these combative players bring to the game. Without them i would probably leave.

I cant believe I'm the only one one who feels this way.

What's a "ganker"?

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Yeah, locking PvPers out of ShinDez would just mean they move to the engineer systems. And you can't really lock them out of engineering (although some would probably suggest that).

I find ShinDez tends to be populated by the more skilled crowd anyways. It's part of the reason why I keep coming back to the system as my home base, player attacks are always panning out much different to NPCs, it's quite refreshing and keeps you on your toes.

Last night for example I flew back to Jameson's in my Vulture, guy pulls me in his Clipper and I thought lets see how this goes - I stayed for the fight instead of just legging it as I usually do. I think he ran Torps, just because my shields were ruined within a few passes and he did shoot missiles at me. Thankfully I don't normally run shield tanks but hybrids, so after realising my shields won't come back up without a reboot I made a tactical retreat, as he also had packhounds. Was very brief but fun though, and I got reminded again to try to check out player's outfitting when encountering them - would've been able to avoid losing my shields as a result I reckon. Overall, no harm done though and I made it to Jameson's in one piece no problem (after dropping into normal space briefly to perform that reboot - better be safe than sorry!).

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

What's a "ganker"?

Im not really sure anymore. Me apparently.
Anyhoo without them this game might as well be renamed to Elite Sterile

 

[galahad2069]

Oh...and full of nice people...met half a dozen PvP-guys out there...besides my training-partners.

Well you met us, but sadly you guys were doing in-house fights only. Maybe today?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Im not really sure anymore. Me apparently.
Anyhoo without them this game might as well be renamed to Elite Sterile

Well, the thread is actually about griefers and I don't know what gankers have to do with that.

 

[Linnunrata]

Im not really sure anymore. Me apparently.
Anyhoo without them this game might as well be renamed to Elite Sterile

It's true that the term usage is lax and so on, and I don't see personally any problem with people preying at Shin. People having access there should know what to do either to avoid, to escape or to kill them.

But just by following EDRecon early warning feed, you can see that the same bunch of CMDRs camp Deciat almost every day and that's what is the core problem in this kind of gameplay IMO.

 

[Eliza]

No offense, but that's like just having an overcomplicated reason why you want to make life miserable for peaceful players. It's just million times more useful for me to see all potentially dangerous targets as hollow squares in the radar rather than some abstract "but but the gankers will have to check more targets".

No offense taken, all's fine. These are just my 2 cents. I'm generally all in with all viable suggestions to make the galaxy a more peaceful place and not like it is right now.
To implement a whole new revamp of the C&P (sort of) what we have would be even more complicated and we both know what FDev's doing when they forge in "New and better stuff".

 

[Eliza]

Well you met us, but sadly you guys were doing in-house fights only. Maybe today?

Yeah...maybe...depends on my spare-time I have tonight. I cannot garantee that for sure right now. Hell freezes over at work right now you know.

But in general, yeah we had a "private party" yesterday, but I'm pretty sure you'll be welcome. Just throw us a message via Discord. We often overlook the Local-Comms in the heat of things.