Griefing: Is it?

[CorvusDove]

Actually it does, the availability of different game modes and the fact it can be evaded by exiting the game and changing modes does not invalidate the term nor it's relation to griefing.

So...because the "victim" can be penalized by insurance and lost cargo, its griefing. That there are tools to avoid all of it, warnings that if you don't use them you'll get what you have coming, etc. do not change that its really all the system and the aggressor's fault. In other posts, you have also suggested that the insurance penalty should vastly increase for those committing these acts. This suggests in your perfect situation, only the criminals can suffer the loss.

I'm guessing you can't stand games that you can lose.

Killing/being killed is part of the game. if you don't choose to play it, that's fine. If I do and you're the victim, that's also fine. This game is Player Vs. Universe, players and npcs and such included. The solution to getting your butt kicked in a game is either get better at the game or quit . People who die so much they arent' having fun anymore in here are just bad at the game, and the game shouldn't change to suit them if many other people are good at it. THAT would be griefing the players who have more fortitude than a fruitfly.

 

[Nara]

Actually it does, the availability of different game modes and the fact it can be evaded by exiting the game and changing modes does not invalidate the term nor it's relation to griefing.
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OR are you supporting Combat Logging to evade such behaviours?

I expect that CorvusDove is suggesting that once you've been killed you can choose to log out in the station to solo or private.

Spawn camping is a choice of the victim. He can choose to stay in open and keep trying to escape, or he can change modes while docked inside the station. Therefore it can't possibly be griefing when it's the players choice to be a victim.

 

[lenna]

@CorvusDove: There is more too it than that, I was stating that COMMUNICATION with the target was not required for a pattern of behaviour to constitute griefing. If warnings are given, it becomes more of a grey area but could still constitute griefing or harassment depending on the precise context. Simple logic can not cover all the possibilities that constitute griefing despite your pretentious flow chart.

 

[GluttonyFang]

NPC's cause players grief and aggravation when they destroy a player's ship, but we consider this 'part of the game'. For some reason, despite it clearly being a part of the galaxy's narrative and through existence clearly being accepted within the rules of the game, players paint player killing in a separate light. For some reason they expect all the players to focus entirely on the NPC's, despite that by doing so they are adding a real world caveat to the in-game narrative. They complain about not being given RP reasons when a player kills them yet separate the players and NPC's into two distinct groups which is also not "RP".

I think the malice comes from the players who don't like losing, not the players who are playing a game the way it is presented to them.

Furthermore, I think anyone who would bring their 'morality' into question, for playing a game the way it has been designed, needs to take things down a notch. If they are not enjoying the game because people are playing it the way it is intended, it is not the opposing player's fault. Suggesting that criminal behaviour could come with greater punishments is great, it's inclusive for all players; questioning the morality of individuals who play differently to you is not inclusive. I think it's abhorrent and manipulative, I think it shows a person who is victimising themselves because they do not agree with the way other players wish to play and hope that through that victimisation they can change the game to fit around their own desires.

Ultimately, I think if a player does not enjoy being killed by another player, they should avoid open, it is the game mode that they do not enjoy and they should not question the morality of the player for playing the game within it's rules.

If the player is utilising unintended game mechanics to harass someone, that's entirely different, but that's not what happened here.

Well said.

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Not everyone is playing the game to become a part-time law enforcement officer - or, put differently, some players just don't enjoy PvP, so suggesting that they band together to take care of miscreants would be asking them to play in a different way than they want to.

And the opposite is also true, which is why people are arguing over morals instead of perhaps stepping out of their desired comfort zone and try to compromise, which I find nothing more than indolent.

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Indeed there are - the difficulty for the player needing assistance is that they may not know who to call and even if they did know, by the time help arrived it would probably be too late....

Not trying to disparage the service at all - just pointing out that it is reactive and requires the player to know who to turn to.

What isn't reactive in that setting?

You are getting shot, you don't want to fight/can't win, you run.

The current mechanic in game already makes it impossible to die unless one wants to die with high-wake and semi-instant cooldown by submitting to an interdiction.

 

[CorvusDove]

@CorvusDove: There is more too it than that, I was stating that COMMUNICATION with the target was not required for a pattern of behaviour to constitute griefing. If warnings are given, it becomes more of a grey area but could still constitute griefing or harassment depending on the precise context. Simple logic can not cover all the possibilities that constitute griefing despite your pretentious flow chart.

But only simple logic can be used to address complaints by customers regarding a business. Otherwise the business will get fleeced or have its product driven into the ground by trying to please the loud minority.

The flow chart is correct and applies. I encourage you to enjoy the game in solo or group play if you dislike that it is. There is no game until you can lose.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Your graphic is great until it reaches "Causing player misery as a reason", then it unfortunately falls apart. This question is asking the player to make an assumption based on emotion. Good luck with that.

Indeed, precisely why I've been suggesting that people need to relatively detach their emotion from their argument, which many have great difficulty of doing.

 

[lenna]

But only simple logic can be used to address complaints by customers regarding a business. Otherwise the business will get fleeced or have its product driven into the ground by trying to please the loud minority.

The flow chart is correct and applies. I encourage you to enjoy the game in solo or group play if you dislike that it is. There is no game until you can lose.

Judges in law enforcement do not always operate on simple logic (the rule of law is not completely black and white), assessing complaints about fellow players is a comparable activity... it is up to FD to judge each incident based on the evidence to hand.

 

[Lowievisser]

funny guys here.

if a npc kills your ship you lost the same fake fantasy money , but if a player kills you its "griefing"

and stop with the real life comparision please. like ppl kill in real life for 1000cr. <----- exception is the proof that the majority does not.

 

[Soliluna]

I expect that CorvusDove is suggesting that once you've been killed you can choose to log out in the station to solo or private.

Spawn camping is a choice of the victim. He can choose to stay in open and keep trying to escape, or he can change modes while docked inside the station. Therefore it can't possibly be griefing when it's the players choice to be a victim.

I agree. If someone is constantly murdering you in a system and you want to avoid that type of behaviour - switch modes.

Players suggesting that if a player constantly beats you over and over it is griefing is silly. In reality it is losing. If they can't stand losing to other players, they should switch modes, there are modes that exist where you don't have to keep losing.

If I am playing Counter Strike and I'm on a server where people are a lot lot better than I am, to the point where all I do is die and it is no longer fun, I switch server. I don't complain at Valve because they are 'griefing' me.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Judges in law enforcement do not always operate on simple logic (the rule of law is not completely black and white), assessing complaints about fellow players is a comparable activity... it is up to FD to judge each incident based on the evidence to hand.

Then people should just file reports and let FD judge, why create a forum topic on it? Because "loud minority" isn't satisfied with the current way the game handles criminal activities.

There is no doubt that FD have probably received countless report of people being labelled as "griefers." However their decision to not change much of how criminal activities are responded to can be understood as the tolerance of certain play style and the result of compromising between play styles.

 

[CorvusDove]

Judges in law enforcement do not always operate on simple logic (the rule of law is not completely black and white), assessing complaints about fellow players is a comparable activity... it is up to FD to judge each incident based on the evidence to hand.

Yes but even that must follow guidelines that are more exclusive than inclusive. The evidence will just be " a killed b ". Without repetition or actual cruelty designed to go outside of the game, there is nothing to investigate. These cases will close pretty fast with little investigation.

Consider, for a moment, that the strong prey on the weak here by design. That the weak grow stronger or are culled.

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Then people should just file reports and let FD judge, why create a forum topic on it? Because "loud minority" isn't satisfied with the current way the game handles criminal activities.

There is no doubt that FD have probably received countless report of people being labelled as "griefers." However their decision to not change much of how criminal activities are responded to can be understood as the tolerance of certain play style and the result of compromising between play styles.

Which suggests the response to complaints to the contrary about the system is " working as intended"

 

[Mark Lock]

Indeed there are - the difficulty for the player needing assistance is that they may not know who to call and even if they did know, by the time help arrived it would probably be too late....

Not trying to disparage the service at all - just pointing out that it is reactive and requires the player to know who to turn to.

The problem is in my opinion nonexistent, you can tell from the beginning if you are in trouble or not, a group of pirate players around and you don't want to fight cause you know you will just die? No need to call anybody for assistance, Boost away from the pirates and get to the closest station, killing players in this game is not griefing, it's game mechanics

 

[GluttonyFang]

I agree. If someone is constantly murdering you in a system and you want to avoid that type of behaviour - switch modes.

Players suggesting that if a player constantly beats you over and over it is griefing is silly. In reality it is losing. If they can't stand losing to other players, they should switch modes, there are modes that exist where you don't have to keep losing.

If I am playing Counter Strike and I'm on a server where people are a lot lot better than I am, to the point where all I do is die and it is no longer fun, I switch server. I don't complain at Valve because they are 'griefing' me.

As much as I dislike categorizing people, I think this might be the source of all this "grief" calling.

 

[lenna]

Then people should just file reports and let FD judge, why create a forum topic on it?

I quite agree wrt the reporting aspect and have mentioned something similar in other similar threads. However, people are allowed to vent if they feel like it. If they feel a mechanics change is necessary to prevent future occurances they are also with-in their rights to propose and discuss it here too. I believe that not everyone that has proposed changes have been victims of griefing but they are entitled to express their opinions too.
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The problem as I see it is that some people keep trying to overly define griefing or refuse to accept that certain actions should have not insignificant nor easily avoidable penalties.

 

[Mark Lock]

I agree. If someone is constantly murdering you in a system and you want to avoid that type of behaviour - switch modes.

Players suggesting that if a player constantly beats you over and over it is griefing is silly. In reality it is losing. If they can't stand losing to other players, they should switch modes, there are modes that exist where you don't have to keep losing.

If I am playing Counter Strike and I'm on a server where people are a lot lot better than I am, to the point where all I do is die and it is no longer fun, I switch server. I don't complain at Valve because they are 'griefing' me.

It is not griefing at all, you don't even have to keep dying or change mode, simply activate your FSD and jump away, space is so big not even a group of bloodthirsty pirate players would be able to catch you over and over again so easily, I don't understand why some people complains about it

 

[Soliluna]

As much as I dislike categorizing people, I think this might be the source of all this "grief" calling.

It seems that way, personally, I think losing is all part of the experience. Losing offers the opportunity for you to address your shortcomings and improve. Most of the time we wouldn't even recognize our weaknesses if we didn't fail at something.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I quite agree wrt the reporting aspect and have mentioned something similar in other similar threads. However, people are allowed to vent if they feel like it. If they feel a mechanics change is necessary to prevent future occurances they are also with-in their rights to propose and discuss it here too. I believe that not everyone that has proposed changes have been victims of griefing but they are entitled to express their opinions too.

If you have been reading what I have been writing on this post and even in this entire forum, I'm all for voicing opinions.

But when these opinions are voiced in a way that deliberately demean and degrade other people for the sole reason that one disagree with another or entertain a different play style, is quite unnecessary.

If this is a vent thread, then name it to be a vent thread. Why disguise it to be a discussion of what constitutes a griefer?

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It seems that way, personally, I think losing is all part of the experience. Losing offers the opportunity for you to address your shortcomings and improve. Most of the time we wouldn't even recognize our weaknesses if we didn't fail at something.

Precisely, I remember getting blown up in a Cobra on my second time of attempting piracy, ever, against an Asp. I learned a valuable lesson that I can't win against an Asp in a Cobra.

And even now I'm learning as to how to improve my skills in CQC and regular PvP in general. I lose some and I win some, I don't go around complaining when I lose to other players in a semi-leveled playing ground. (No, PP is a whole different story.)

 

[Robert Maynard]

And the opposite is also true, which is why people are arguing over morals instead of perhaps stepping out of their desired comfort zone and try to compromise, which I find nothing more than indolent.

Where would you expect a compromise to be found?

What isn't reactive in that setting?

You are getting shot, you don't want to fight/can't win, you run.

The current mechanic in game already makes it impossible to die unless one wants to die with high-wake and semi-instant cooldown by submitting to an interdiction.

If escape was so simple and certain then there'd likely be less complaining about being destroyed.

 

[Lowievisser]

robert please , it is simpel. that 10 ppl in the week dont get it and make treads is another story in my opinion

 

[GluttonyFang]

If escape was so simple and certain then there'd likely be less complaining about being destroyed.

If people learned how to escape instead of using their ignorance as a valid basis to reduce overall risk of the game, it will save quite a lot of valuable space on the forum for other discussion. As a moderator, I believe you are familiar with the concept.

My question is if you are aware of the issue, why is there no sticky thread that addresses this issue? Why, instead, you allow people to fill the forum with identical topic? Because you agree with them? Because you want them to be seen more than others?

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robert please , it is simpel. that 10 ppl in the week dont get it and make treads is another story in my opinion

I believe that is indeed the case.