Guardian enthusiasts?
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New video by Clara Rules Space
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Guardian enthusiasts?
- Thread starter ClaraRulesSpace
- Start date
So I have tons of pictures and a lot of back data that I didn’t really go over very well. The glyphs are also some thing I missed and I am wondering if anyone knows the location to observe them. They were in an obelisk and I will be taking screenshots of the ones that are known. I’m also cataloging symbols of all kinds from the ruins on the beacons.
Greetings, CMDR Clara.
Not sure where explorers have observed the glyphs except on obelisks and the like. There are few, not many, to be seen scattered across structures and ruins sites. These include the ancient casket, orb, relic, tablet, totem, and urn, as you likely know (image included).
I watched the video in your post #2 above. In particular your statements on the deletion/destruction of Guardian data could be described as eye-opening. The notion that it is only possible that this was done by survivors of the species is likely controversial. If you have proof of this, it would be very interesting to others who have and who are researching this.
Personally, I could propose at least two other mechanisms for the destruction of this data. Thargoids, who we know to have been enemies of the species, would have immense motivation for searching out and destroying this kind of material in order to assure that the species could not re-emerge to impact them again, at least not easily. This search could have easily taken a very long time had the Guardians inflicted great losses on the Thargoid population, mobility, etc.
If you think that the Guardians did this to retreat their stores to safe places, out of reach of Thargoids (or someone else who might come along), proof of this would be monumental, as would be proof of their survival, of which none exists or has been shared, as far as I know. This is a plausible scenario but only if Guardians survived. Science relies on proof, not lack thereof. Otherwise it is simply a hypothesis. You mentioned several times that you/your group have proof. At some point, it will be necessary to choose who you'll share this with.
As you likely know, Canonn Research has done and collected much research on the Guardians, so one can gain insight from more than just Ram Tah's work. I don't recall mention of Canonn in your message, just Ram Tah. The work of Canonn represents the work of many seeking answers. This work is worth study by anyone delving into these mysteries.
I look forward to hearing more.
Not sure where explorers have observed the glyphs except on obelisks and the like. There are few, not many, to be seen scattered across structures and ruins sites. These include the ancient casket, orb, relic, tablet, totem, and urn, as you likely know (image included).
I watched the video in your post #2 above. In particular your statements on the deletion/destruction of Guardian data could be described as eye-opening. The notion that it is only possible that this was done by survivors of the species is likely controversial. If you have proof of this, it would be very interesting to others who have and who are researching this.
Personally, I could propose at least two other mechanisms for the destruction of this data. Thargoids, who we know to have been enemies of the species, would have immense motivation for searching out and destroying this kind of material in order to assure that the species could not re-emerge to impact them again, at least not easily. This search could have easily taken a very long time had the Guardians inflicted great losses on the Thargoid population, mobility, etc.
If you think that the Guardians did this to retreat their stores to safe places, out of reach of Thargoids (or someone else who might come along), proof of this would be monumental, as would be proof of their survival, of which none exists or has been shared, as far as I know. This is a plausible scenario but only if Guardians survived. Science relies on proof, not lack thereof. Otherwise it is simply a hypothesis. You mentioned several times that you/your group have proof. At some point, it will be necessary to choose who you'll share this with.
As you likely know, Canonn Research has done and collected much research on the Guardians, so one can gain insight from more than just Ram Tah's work. I don't recall mention of Canonn in your message, just Ram Tah. The work of Canonn represents the work of many seeking answers. This work is worth study by anyone delving into these mysteries.
I look forward to hearing more.
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I will admit that some of it is theoretical but based largely on how our own civilization works and the idea that ram tah has supposedly deciphered much of the lexicon but not shared with the community how it’s done. And he goes on and on about all of the things about the civilization that he knows, from their conception in tribes to their downfall. But never has any mention of region, or references to any galaxy maps, nothing.
If you were going to detail the entire history of your civilization, would you leave out where it began? Where your first colonies were? Are you going to detail how to rebuild the weapons your civilization has developed so that others can copy your technology, but not have presence of mind to mention who you are? Or where you are?
The other thing that annoys me is that none of the sites have ever been excavated, after hearing all the noise that’s coming from underground. Frontier has seriously dropped the ball on what this is supposed to be and how the human species would react to it. I but there are plenty of clues in what’s not being said. I actually even wrote a letter to frontier about the locked areas and got a response. Again, it’s not what they told me but what they left out that was revealing to me.
The Guardian glyphs seem to be one form of an alphabet. The triangular patterns seen at the bottom of the relic towers seem to be some kind of number system or coordinates system. I don’t know which. But those patterns are splashed all over the wings of the beacons. That will be my project this week.
To compare those symbols to the system that is tied to that particular beacon. Like a Rosetta Stone, I am hoping there is a clue on the beacon that tells you the location of the ruins it is connected to. In the Guardian language. If I could find one such reference it would help unlock a huge load of mysteries.
I also have an entire photo album full of hieroglyphs that were apparently used for some other form of communication or recordkeeping. So there are three distinct writing systems. Hieroglyphics, glyphs, and what looks like a triangular number pattern.
One of the hieroglyphics looked kind of like the head of the facility where you get your fighter blueprints. Like an overhead shot. So I think the hieroglyphics on the beacon are instructions on where to cash in your blueprint and what technology it unlocks.
More later. I’m at work and I am getting pounded.
V
I am a fan of the lore in ED. I have no problem with following leads or making interpretations. While I wouldn't be surprised if certain interested entities weren't revealing everything they have learned, I'm not sure I could accuse them of it outright either. And again, there is more than one repository of information (it's not just Ram's). Canonn is made up of independent interested researchers who profess to be in it for the science. We must take this at face value, not presume that everyone's bad.
Many of the gaps you mention could be due to knowledge being withheld but could just as likely be undiscovered or destroyed information.* The questions that you pose about what the Guardians would or would not intend to disclose in a record of themselves ask about more than simply the obvious answers. Among other things, they ask about intent of the record.
Consider the following: Maybe the Guardians never intended the records to be a posterity item. Why would they presume that they were going to wipe themselves out?
Consider the following as well: If they were such an advanced intellect, I'm not sure they would want to publicize weaponry for some unknown entity to find later because they'd appreciate how dangerous such an uncontrolled revelation could be to another species and I'd assume that they would find that unacceptable.
Consider: I can't imagine that they wouldn't be cognizant of the risk that the information could fall into the hands of their actual enemies too.
Or perhaps this indeed was to be a record for posterity, with the presumption that from the few remains of their destroyed society some day they would recover enough in population, wisdom (hopefully), and capability to be able to access and use the record for their benefit again.
Another scenario that I didn't mention in my previous post exists, and is quite plausible, imo. Remember that, over time, the Guardians became their own enemies, separated into technology-accepting and technology-rejecting groups. This so much so that they protected themselves from one another using great shield domes over whole cities and diverted their entire existence from scholarly and technological development that made their lives easier to the development of war machines deployed against their own. It is entirely possible that this devolution is (at least partly) the reason for the fragmented record we have discovered, with parts of it being destroyed intentionally due to their animosity or paranoia towards one another and the desire to keep from revealing sensitive info to their adversaries (themselves) or inevitable collateral damage of their war-existence and end. Is that not so? Figuring out which of the numerous possibilities is (or are) the culprit(s) to explain the loss of this record is a daunting, exciting, monumental endeavor due, in no small part, to the passage of so much time.
Be mindful about calling something proof when you're speculating. I'm excited to hear more about discoveries you will make looking in to the many things you mention and I hope that you won't mind my prodding to be sure they are more than intuition. This is how we cross examine discoveries and solidify theories.
As you mention, however, it's just as possible that dead ends show up due to RL here in that the story development didn't go as far as we'd like. The things you heard from FDev (and didn't hear) may indeed be telling to you but, they are not yet proof, they are interpretation (a necessary step, of course) unless there's more to it than you have disclosed thus far that will support the interpretation. There are certainly game-imposed limitations at play. Excavation of sites comes to mind readily. We cannot dig...
I'm not attempting to discourage anyone from discovering more about this interesting, fun, and mysterious part of ED. It is tantalizing. I encourage anyone to stick to an objective, scientific method of interpreting information.
I look forward to hearing more. Discover ON!
* The difference being that they could yet be discovered or may be impossible to discover.
Many of the gaps you mention could be due to knowledge being withheld but could just as likely be undiscovered or destroyed information.* The questions that you pose about what the Guardians would or would not intend to disclose in a record of themselves ask about more than simply the obvious answers. Among other things, they ask about intent of the record.
Consider the following: Maybe the Guardians never intended the records to be a posterity item. Why would they presume that they were going to wipe themselves out?
Consider the following as well: If they were such an advanced intellect, I'm not sure they would want to publicize weaponry for some unknown entity to find later because they'd appreciate how dangerous such an uncontrolled revelation could be to another species and I'd assume that they would find that unacceptable.
Consider: I can't imagine that they wouldn't be cognizant of the risk that the information could fall into the hands of their actual enemies too.
Or perhaps this indeed was to be a record for posterity, with the presumption that from the few remains of their destroyed society some day they would recover enough in population, wisdom (hopefully), and capability to be able to access and use the record for their benefit again.
Another scenario that I didn't mention in my previous post exists, and is quite plausible, imo. Remember that, over time, the Guardians became their own enemies, separated into technology-accepting and technology-rejecting groups. This so much so that they protected themselves from one another using great shield domes over whole cities and diverted their entire existence from scholarly and technological development that made their lives easier to the development of war machines deployed against their own. It is entirely possible that this devolution is (at least partly) the reason for the fragmented record we have discovered, with parts of it being destroyed intentionally due to their animosity or paranoia towards one another and the desire to keep from revealing sensitive info to their adversaries (themselves) or inevitable collateral damage of their war-existence and end. Is that not so? Figuring out which of the numerous possibilities is (or are) the culprit(s) to explain the loss of this record is a daunting, exciting, monumental endeavor due, in no small part, to the passage of so much time.
Be mindful about calling something proof when you're speculating. I'm excited to hear more about discoveries you will make looking in to the many things you mention and I hope that you won't mind my prodding to be sure they are more than intuition. This is how we cross examine discoveries and solidify theories.
As you mention, however, it's just as possible that dead ends show up due to RL here in that the story development didn't go as far as we'd like. The things you heard from FDev (and didn't hear) may indeed be telling to you but, they are not yet proof, they are interpretation (a necessary step, of course) unless there's more to it than you have disclosed thus far that will support the interpretation. There are certainly game-imposed limitations at play. Excavation of sites comes to mind readily. We cannot dig...
I'm not attempting to discourage anyone from discovering more about this interesting, fun, and mysterious part of ED. It is tantalizing. I encourage anyone to stick to an objective, scientific method of interpreting information.
I look forward to hearing more. Discover ON!
* The difference being that they could yet be discovered or may be impossible to discover.
You’re misunderstanding something, the video logs are actually just a beginning concept of a fictional story I am using my character for.
I wanted to take my search and create a video log, but I wanted to record to reach back a little ways. So far there are two videos. The one you saw was made first even though it was supposed to occur halfway through the search. The opinions or theories shared in that video are the points of you coming from the character. But playing on obvious things in the game.
it remains my firm opinion that you would not find a treasure trove of information that includes blueprints, technological aspects, the tribal conception of the species and their entire history, the hallmarks and achievements of their civilization, and information about their enemies without any mention of the region you came from.
Almost every bit of information about your species is in there except where it is. So to me, it is an obvious assumption that the record was altered to hide these things. Either by developers, using the story cleverly to cover their tracks, or the guardians as a practical measure to keep their former enemies from coming back and attacking them in a weakened state.
You wouldn’t bother trying to hide where your civilization came from from your own species, You wouldn’t bother trying to hide where your civilization came from from your own species, even during a Civil War because it’s a part of the curriculum you are teaching the young. Their place in the universe, where they come from, who they are, and so on.
So to me, the record having been altered was a given. Not necessarily a discovery, and not something that has obvious tangible proof but something that has come out as a result of gameplay. It is obvious this species is sharing every piece of information about their civilization except its location.
The new records indicate that there is another set of structures out there that contain blueprints for thrusters and Guardian starships. This is from ram tah.
Which adds to another theory. So here are mine.
1) The record makes frequent mention of a mystery metal that we cannot duplicate. This metal is the corner stone of their technology. And I have seen strains on Reddit where the developers seem to be looking for something to hit the markets before they open some thing. This could mean that we have yet to discover the element that the guardians used to make their alloys. Since no one has discovered it yet, it is my firm belief that this element, when it is found, will be sitting on the back doorstep of the Guardian home region. Since everything they built is made from this stuff I strongly believe that it is indigenous to their region of space. So A new metal would be a smoking gun.
2) The locked regions are dependent on some kind of technology to unlock them. You either have to outfit your ship with that special metal or you need some kind of computer software that identifies you as friendly. So an IFF system in your ship probably get you into the Guardian systems. After reading the new logs I am starting to think that building your own guardian starship will be a necessary step.
3) The guardian lexicon. So far I have found a system of glyphs, a system of hieroglyphics, and what I believe to be a number or location math system. hieroglyphics I’ve seen at structures and now I am finding them all over the beacons. The diagrams look very specific. The triangular number system can be seen at the bottom of the relic towers. I am finding those patterns all over the wings of the beacons. So I believe once the lingual code is cracked we are likely to find another location. I believe the markings on the beacons are specific to the ruins that beacon is connected to. So I’m going to try to use this as my Rosetta Stone.
It also might be possible that you need some kind of combination of glyphs used at a certain location to unlock certain areas. These areas may have been blocked millions of years ago during the war with thargoids. A simple system put in place to keep your aggressors out of your systems. We still have not seen any of them flying around systems that contain any guardian tech.
I believe the guardian bubble as we know it was just a buffer zone between the guardians and their enemy. With a row of beacons in a row of structures put up like a wall between the guardians and their enemies.
4) The more I think about it the more I strongly believe that the extinction story is crap. It is too simple and too neat. According to the record a lot of colonies did not get involved in this conflict. You’re talking about possibly 20 to 40 billion probably. Think of all the commerce and transportation and trade and military movements. No single precision strike, I don’t care how accurate, could kill off the entire species. I believe it is more likely that the record was altered to show this story as a cautionary tale. And I don’t think machine race would have presence of mind or even care about altering the record. So I believe there were survivors, both cyborg and guardian, because they were forced to ban together for their own survival and fight off their own creations. There is also in my firm opinion no freaking way that all the guardians were taken by surprise considering half of them were wired directly into the same net work that the constructs were. When the kill order went out at least a few guardians would’ve known about it and completely flipped their .
I could go on, but you get the point. This was no extinction event. At least a few ships and a few colonies were probably spared. And the ruins and structures that we have found are the ones that have been abandoned. The beacon Netwerk still being functional tells me this species still has eyes on the universe. I believe these devices were left out to monitor in case their old enemies ever started to advance back toward Guardian space. Which is, according to Cannons map, in the two sections directly above ours on the galactic disk. Where practically nothing has been discovered yet.
The video logs are to document my search and chronicle my theories. I’m not necessarily trying to sell them as fact from frontier developers. But I am very careful not to just runoff with any theory. I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And looking at references in our own history. And I’m also filling in the blanks of what is not being said by frontier, canon or ram tah.
The altering of the record in my opinion it’s just common knowledge, or common theory to most of the community that has studied this. Simply because it is the only information that is missing from the records. All of their history, all of their weaknesses, all of their strengths, information on biological weaponry, everything you could use to hurt them. Except where they are.
I think the species had to set aside their differences to survive the constructs. And they retreated back to a smaller area and regrouped. Realizing they could not sustain any conflict with their former aggressors, and possibly still worried about the constructs being out there as well, I feel like they deleted these records to protect themselves.
And they abandoned all settlements that were not necessary or did not contain cities. Religious centers, military outposts, listening posts, refineries or factories in distant locations, whatever these things are they were not important and not near any major city.
The pilot for my video logs is here. It is a call to interested parties and I will be using these logs, even re-creating some of my first discoveries, to try to make it interesting. And fun.
New video by Clara Rules Space
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I see. Yes, my misunderstanding of your intention was the motivation behind my messages and I apologize for that. I hope that you can see from my writing that I'm interested in the lore and that it was simply a misunderstanding. Your explanation of the time-position of your first video makes sense and can explain the concerns that came to my mind when it was the first thing I saw. I'm interested to hear your story so I hope you still intend to keep this thread going.
Agreed:
-The record was altered and/or destroyed in part.
-I don't think the machines they developed would have had as a purpose the alteration or destruction of the record. I believe their purpose would have been more limited.
-No mass-kill or -extinction occurred. If the guesses about their population as a species are pretty good, that a lot of beings.
-The Guardians had to know at some point that everything was being destroyed - on a scale that endangered their existence as a species
-The Guardians were not taken by surprise. I wouldn't think that their paranoia or ideological fervor would have blinded them so badly, especially as the destruction mounted. This must have been a terrible realization with their cities in ruins and under attack. Did this realization come too late for them to protect themselves from their own creations?
...or that in combination with a long, agonizing decline that comes from loss of capability to sustain oneself with necessities of life such as food, shelter, medicine, procreation, etc. when everything that allows you to do so is (was) a primary target and has likely been destroyed.
These would have been tireless, unemotional machines with a task to complete regardless of its duration. Did this realization come too late for them to reconcile in order to pool their resources to survive? Could they no longer communicate in order to reconcile?
-Knowing that everyone was connected, were the machines able (built) to hide from the network to avoid detection?
- Despite the efforts of many, there is much we still don't know.
I enjoy reading your writing. I hope you have a lot of fun and create it for others too. I look forward to hearing more.
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I’m sorry. I wasn’t complaining. Didn’t mean to give you that impression.
Just at work and had to explain quickly using dictation.
But no worries. These are some of the things that my own homework has produced. Nobody seems to be on the same page about this anyway. So the video logs are meant to be the point of view from the character, not myself. So commander Clara is studying the ruins and coming up with theories while checking the record against Cannon and ram tah. My next couple of videos will simply go back a few months to highlight the first experience with a beacon and the first experience with a structure. Then I will start building on it from there. But the mission mentioned in the video is real. I’m trying to put together a team that wants to go out and try to solve this mystery. Keep me posted if you hear of any good ideas.
Thnx
V
All good.
I wish Cmdr Clara many awesome adventures!
My head is spinning. Ugh. I could have found Atlantis by now
Some thing on a theoretical note. The computer core for the bacon is half the size of my ship. My big one. These things are obviously more capable than this. And I almost feel like we are being monitored.
Given just enough tech to keep us in the scanning range. Especially with another alien species breathing down our backside. And I feel like this somehow plays into the layout. I don’t know if you’ve ever examined the layer of beacons next to a layer of structures next to a layer of ruins from overhead using tags. But it’s very interesting the way that this whole thing is laid out. I feel like it would’ve been spherical.
The locked systems could also be a deliberate deterrent by the guardians. I would love to see a layout of how all the locked systems fit together. Possibly bottlenecking all other species to only use certain regions of space to travel. Keeping the Guardian systems or where current guardians may be safely on the other side.
Any thoughts on this? Anyone
Some thing on a theoretical note. The computer core for the bacon is half the size of my ship. My big one. These things are obviously more capable than this. And I almost feel like we are being monitored.
Given just enough tech to keep us in the scanning range. Especially with another alien species breathing down our backside. And I feel like this somehow plays into the layout. I don’t know if you’ve ever examined the layer of beacons next to a layer of structures next to a layer of ruins from overhead using tags. But it’s very interesting the way that this whole thing is laid out. I feel like it would’ve been spherical.
The locked systems could also be a deliberate deterrent by the guardians. I would love to see a layout of how all the locked systems fit together. Possibly bottlenecking all other species to only use certain regions of space to travel. Keeping the Guardian systems or where current guardians may be safely on the other side.
Any thoughts on this? Anyone
My CMDR's head is spinning as well. He's an analytical, logical, measured type. Coming up with a next something is pretty tough right now. Still in the process of assessing where we are and (of course) what happenend (in the grand scheme, not just the events that we all know). As you may have gleaned from my recent posts, I too am thinking that this was no surprise to our intended targets. That we are being monitored, I think is likely.
What I can't figure out how to determine is: By who? By more than one species? I certainly can't ignore that possibility.* We now have a third relic or tech-fragment of some sort to add to our puzzle. What are these? What do they do? What are they for? Besides using them as 'keys' to unlock a tidbit of tech info (blueprint fragments), we haven't gleaned much - and that's only regarding one of these curiosities.
Even if the permit-locked regions are a way to funnel us thru travel lanes that allow for easier monitoring,** I think it's pretty clear that our use of relics and tech of others also provides a convenient mechanism for that to happen, especially when (as we're all-too-likely to do), we collect a bunch of them. No question that we attract attention. Our presumptions of who's watching - based upon who always shows up in response - may have been too simplistic. *We as a species also have the faulty tendency to assume, when we "discover" an answer, that that's the one, and ignore the possibility that there's ANOTHER. Uh oh!
If you have an image of one of the structures to help CMDRs visualize what you're proposing, that could be helpful. At this point, any aid to help us focus our thoughts is likely useful...
EDIT:
** This permit-locking is done by the Pilot's Federation, or am I mistaken? It finds its way into every one of our flight systems, built-in by every ship manufacturer somehow, very effectively blocking us from those areas of space with seemingly no hack to get around it. Even the Scriveners who have developed tech away from the rest of us don't have access to those areas (we don't think). It makes you wonder about a few things including who they are or who's moving their hand to implement this (referring to the PF).
What I can't figure out how to determine is: By who? By more than one species? I certainly can't ignore that possibility.* We now have a third relic or tech-fragment of some sort to add to our puzzle. What are these? What do they do? What are they for? Besides using them as 'keys' to unlock a tidbit of tech info (blueprint fragments), we haven't gleaned much - and that's only regarding one of these curiosities.
Even if the permit-locked regions are a way to funnel us thru travel lanes that allow for easier monitoring,** I think it's pretty clear that our use of relics and tech of others also provides a convenient mechanism for that to happen, especially when (as we're all-too-likely to do), we collect a bunch of them. No question that we attract attention. Our presumptions of who's watching - based upon who always shows up in response - may have been too simplistic. *We as a species also have the faulty tendency to assume, when we "discover" an answer, that that's the one, and ignore the possibility that there's ANOTHER. Uh oh!
If you have an image of one of the structures to help CMDRs visualize what you're proposing, that could be helpful. At this point, any aid to help us focus our thoughts is likely useful...
EDIT:
** This permit-locking is done by the Pilot's Federation, or am I mistaken? It finds its way into every one of our flight systems, built-in by every ship manufacturer somehow, very effectively blocking us from those areas of space with seemingly no hack to get around it. Even the Scriveners who have developed tech away from the rest of us don't have access to those areas (we don't think). It makes you wonder about a few things including who they are or who's moving their hand to implement this (referring to the PF).
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I will start with the monitoring.
If I was a superior species that wanted to stay in the dark, like the guardians if they survived, and my tech still worked, as soon as someone accessed it my species would know. So to draw them in, we give them a few blueprint fragments of the old minor weapons, Since we have had eons to improve them. And keep them coming back and accessing our technology so that we can decode theirs. If they take your blueprint fragments and begin using them, then their defensive capabilities move along whatever paths you desire. You will be able to counteract anything they do.
Goids I have not studied much. I will have to brush up. But one of my former teammates did track a moving nebula on the Galaxy map for a while. I believe that’s who that is.
I believe the guardians survived. At least some of them. And retreated to their origin systems. I also believe that the AI constructs are out there. Since they failed to be mentioned in the record it is almost guaranteed that at least those survived. And now fully self-aware have probably evolved into a completely different machine species. This species would also have access to the Guardian computer Netwerk.
And don’t forget the outcasts from the first Civil War. They were banished from the HomeWorld. And this was sometime before the second world war. These people could’ve started a completely different government elsewhere and severed contact. Even though they had a few sympathizers in the colonies.
So I’m sure we’re being monitored, I also suspect we might be being manipulated. Buy a species that is at least one and a half million years ahead of us in technology.
The permit locks, I think there are different kinds. You have the pilots Federation. Or whatever they’re called. But you also do not possess enough guardian technology to access their Netwerk to enter their systems. I don’t think it’s a permit you require for guardian controlled systems, I believe there’s a piece of technology we have not discovered yet or an alloy. Something that identifies you as guardian when you try to access those systems. Beacons that emit the right electromagnetic frequency near each star would probably do it.
It would keep all the bugs out.
And I have heard whispers from the PC community about a rumored third alien species, but that literally could be the constructs themselves. They weren’t really guardian. The fact that the alien tech and the guardian tech react so horribly to each other still is a good indication that there are probably survivors, and somewhere out there probably still a conflict between the two species. If your enemy had been dead and buried for over 1 million years, why would you keep the safeguards? Safeguards that would just make your tech go berserk every time you landed in the wrong spot. Because the enemy that originally populated it has been dead for 1 million years.
I do have some images of the markings. I will post another reply with a link.
Yours
V
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