Guardians Discussions

[CMDR Dreamstate]

I mentioned it a few months ago in my thread, but may have forgot to mention it here.

Just my hypothesis mind, but it could be possible that The Brain Trees were seeded in systems that were specifically swamped toward many of the permit locked systems where we think the Thargoids come from - I'm wondering, if that's the case, that the Brain Trees are a form of organic early warning system - or potential Thargoid inhibitors.

It's like a form of security fencing to keep something out (think Jurassic Park, but in the Guardians case, they did it to lock themselves in) - if that's the case, perhaps that's why we never see any Thargoids visit Guardian Ruins or Brain Tree sites: they may be unable to use their hyperspace technology due to the odd frequency waves produced by the Brain Trees (especially if those frequency waves are part of a faster-than-light communications network in some way - what a pain for bio-tech, perhaps?).

Of course, if the above is true, then the Thargoids could never have had a hand in wiping out the Guardians (which is one theory), because they wouldn't have been able to touch them - but the Guardians would've been able to touch them (hence their dislike for the technology) - this means the Guardians or their AI just wiped themselves out as Ram Tah suggests.

The only supporting bit I could find from Ram Tah's 101 entries is No.17 in Technology:

This data gives details of the Guardians research into computer technologies. The Guardians' computer hardware operated on the same principles as our own. Their engineering was more sophisticated, but even to a layperson such as myself if it comprehensible. They experimented with organic computers, but ultimately these failed to meet expectations, except in a few areas such as bio-monitoring. Even then, genetically modified organisms usually performed better.

This led me on to wonder if whether or not the Brain Trees were actually the pre-cursors to the AI that evolved in the Monolithic Network, and whether or not the Brain Trees being, potentially, genetically modified space fungus (which no doubt would have made Guardian scientists go wild at the prospect of something growing and surving without an atmosphere), were the first of the network to be trialed before their use was alterered for "bio-monitoring" (Thargoids) once they began to mass produce the technological ruins we see today.

 

[Louis Calvert]

I really like the concept but the big question is whether the Thargoids are old enough to have been in any way concurrent with the Guardians.

My feeling is they're not, because they appear to occupy such a small area of space, and they are at least comparable to us in terms of space faring ability - which suggests that if they were older even by a few hundred years, they would have potentially overrun the whole galaxy by now. It's a tricky situation because it's 95% guesswork.

Of course the second part of this is that while we know the approximate age of the Guardian ruins we don't know the age of the Braintrees, they might be very recent.

 

[Lori Jameson]

I really like the concept but the big question is whether the Thargoids are old enough to have been in any way concurrent with the Guardians.

My feeling is they're not, because they appear to occupy such a small area of space, and they are at least comparable to us in terms of space faring ability - which suggests that if they were older even by a few hundred years, they would have potentially overrun the whole galaxy by now. It's a tricky situation because it's 95% guesswork.

Of course the second part of this is that while we know the approximate age of the Guardian ruins we don't know the age of the Braintrees, they might be very recent.

This is why I wish we had a way to collect samples, analyze them, and give an approximate age and/or chemical makeup... Research Bays perhaps? Kind of like the Limpet Bay idea, but with: scanners, coring devices, analysis kits, etc. Maybe even a new Elite ranking for Science tied to the use of a Research Bay?

The analysis kits could function like a refinery. You select from your inventory of mats and cargo what you want to research with three modes Invasive Non-invasive, and Attempt Activation.

Invasive would provide a more in depth analysis of the item in question at the expense of the item.

Non-Invasive would give a basic analysis with out destroying the object.

Attempt Activation would well... Attempt to activate specific items with a chance to destroy the specimen (depends on what you try to activate).

You could even go as far as making certain items respond better to different techniques!

I dunno, I'd just like to get into the nitty gritty of science instead of just therorising and doing audio scans. I know there is more to it yeah but, hey, a girl can dream yeah?

 

[andrewg_oz]

Is there any organised effort for locating new Guardian ruins? I'm aware they seem to be associated with nebulas.

I'm currently 15kLy past Colonia and wondering if it's worthwhile searching some of the nebulas around here? Is there a list of nebulas that have been searched, or need to be searched?

 

[AethirofMenelaus]

Speaking of new ruins... I was investigating the COL 173 sector (I was already out at VY Canis Majoris when I stumbled across a video, realised hey I'm not far from there!) - started working my way along the Col 173/Sinuefe border near the COL 121 permit zone... wasn't having any luck, so I wanted to verify I was actually doing it right. Took a trip out to COL 173 QU-O D6-25 because there's a site on 5B and I wanted to make sure I was searching properly. Yep, I just hadn't been lucky. Figured what the hell, let's check this one out while we're here, maybe it'll verify a report or something. Got about 2kish ls out - noticed I had 2 ruins on my contact list now.

2nd one is a degraded Beta site with few structures, approx 4 relics and 6 active obelisks, isn't listed on the database so I figure it's a new discovery...

Spoiler

On an unrelated note regarding Brain Trees and Thargoids - what if the Brain Trees are the Guardian's answer to the Mycoid Virus?


(just in case the spoilered image doesn't load, here's the link) http://steamcommunity.com/id/mahashma/screenshot/914665718160598893

 

[Baton]

Got about 2kish ls out - noticed I had 2 ruins on my contact list now.

Well done commander (BTW you know you do not need to get within 1000ls to find ruins? https://youtu.be/zIhbu_AYmDU )

 

[Baton]

Is there any organised effort for locating new Guardian ruins? I'm aware they seem to be associated with nebulas.

No, not anything organised I know about. I checked most of the big nebulae for existence of brain trees (which I consider the best way to find ruins) with no luck. The thing is I checked only couple of candidate bodies in each nebula, so I may have been unlucky. Best is have a go at it if you are close to any of them, finding brain trees takes very little time and it is very effective ( https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...How-To-Guide?p=6155454&viewfull=1#post6155454 ).

 

[AethirofMenelaus]

The first popped immediately I entered the system; the 2nd didn't appear on nav systems until much closer. The site itself is relatively bare for a Beta, and I have heard discussion to the effect that the number of features/active obelisks a ruin has may affect the distance at which they can be detected, which in light of this does appear to have some merit.

 

[Baton]

The first popped immediately I entered the system; the 2nd didn't appear on nav systems until much closer.

Yes they do appear on your nav list from 1000ls, but if you point your ship at them (as on the clip I gave link to) they show from any distance, even 500000ls, so it is a must know trick for anyone who does search for them, saves you hours of work. Still you must be lucky to find a system with ruins in the first place, so this is only speeding things a bit.

1000ls works for any ruins regardless of how many features they have.

 

[Maligno]

Speaking of new ruins... I was investigating the COL 173 sector (I was already out at VY Canis Majoris when I stumbled across a video, realised hey I'm not far from there!) - started working my way along the Col 173/Sinuefe border near the COL 121 permit zone... wasn't having any luck, so I wanted to verify I was actually doing it right. Took a trip out to COL 173 QU-O D6-25 because there's a site on 5B and I wanted to make sure I was searching properly. Yep, I just hadn't been lucky. Figured what the hell, let's check this one out while we're here, maybe it'll verify a report or something. Got about 2kish ls out - noticed I had 2 ruins on my contact list now.

2nd one is a degraded Beta site with few structures, approx 4 relics and 6 active obelisks, isn't listed on the database so I figure it's a new discovery...

Spoiler

http://steamcommunity.com/id/mahashma/screenshot/914665718160598893

On an unrelated note regarding Brain Trees and Thargoids - what if the Brain Trees are the Guardian's answer to the Mycoid Virus?


(just in case the spoilered image doesn't load, here's the link) http://steamcommunity.com/id/mahashma/screenshot/914665718160598893

Good job!

 

[Louis Calvert]

Apologies in advance for the cross post (from the Aegis thread), but something occurred to me that's related to both Thargoid and Guardians:

I would like to suggest an alternative to the recent Galnet propaganda (about Thargoids attacking Aegis stations): Thargoids aren't going after Aegis, I doubt they're going after their own technology either - everything Aegis have that's Thargoid are things the bugs left lying around on planets and drifting in space, I don't see that they'd care (or they'd better defend the stuff they leave lying around), and as others have said there's got to be lots of Thargoid tech in lots of places all over the place.

It seems more likely that the Thargoids are going after concentrations of Guardian technology.

1) We know Thargoids have a violent negative reaction to Guardian Tech
2) We know Aegis have been making weapons from Guardian Tech
3) It follows that the places that will have the highest concentration of Guardian Tech in the area are Aegis labs.
4) It's not impossible that the Thargoids heading towards the bubble are heading towards Ram Tah's base - the other big concentration of Guardian technology (that we know about) in human space.

It's possible they are just trying to eliminate our ability to hurt them (which is based almost entirely on our use of Guardian technology), but what if the Thargoids have recently started attacking Aegis labs and heading towards the bubble to purge the Guardian technology not because we're using it as weapons, but because of the fact it's Guardian Technology itself? Almost like a crusade?

What's the thoughts on this from Guardian enthusiasts?

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

Apologies in advance for the cross post (from the Aegis thread), but something occurred to me that's related to both Thargoid and Guardians:

I would like to suggest an alternative to the recent Galnet propaganda (about Thargoids attacking Aegis stations): Thargoids aren't going after Aegis, I doubt they're going after their own technology either - everything Aegis have that's Thargoid are things the bugs left lying around on planets and drifting in space, I don't see that they'd care (or they'd better defend the stuff they leave lying around), and as others have said there's got to be lots of Thargoid tech in lots of places all over the place.

It seems more likely that the Thargoids are going after concentrations of Guardian technology.

1) We know Thargoids have a violent negative reaction to Guardian Tech
2) We know Aegis have been making weapons from Guardian Tech
3) It follows that the places that will have the highest concentration of Guardian Tech in the area are Aegis labs.
4) It's not impossible that the Thargoids heading towards the bubble are heading towards Ram Tah's base - the other big concentration of Guardian technology (that we know about) in human space.

It's possible they are just trying to eliminate our ability to hurt them (which is based almost entirely on our use of Guardian technology), but what if the Thargoids have recently started attacking Aegis labs and heading towards the bubble to purge the Guardian technology not because we're using it as weapons, but because of the fact it's Guardian Technology itself? Almost like a crusade?

What's the thoughts on this from Guardian enthusiasts?

This would actually make sense.

Aegis have required some Guardian tech to be collected and sent a couple of times (Liz Ryder is one of the Engineers that helped with this I think?) in order to mass produce AX weaponry...

I don't have the time unfortunatley (working on a card game in my spare time, not Elite related - any time I spend in 3.0 is going to be briefly for the Guardians then that's it), but it would be potentially awesome of someone to go back through the CG's in Galnet to see what the dates were for those material gathering missions for those AX weaponry, and what space stations (military, tech, etc) had the AX developed or unlocked.

I'm guessing some of them, but maybe not all (after all, only some AX weaponry is available on the ground?), although because it is Aegis and their stations, they probably have plenty of stock-piled Guardian relics and the like stashed away.

The Thargoids may well hit Ram Tah's system - but they could also hit Shinrata Dezra, too, since it stocks all AX weaponry and Utilities.

What would be more shocking than having the heart of the pilots federation get invaded by Thargoids, and that precious 10% discount and everything being readily available to get taken away?

 

[Maligno]

Apologies in advance for the cross post (from the Aegis thread), but something occurred to me that's related to both Thargoid and Guardians:

I would like to suggest an alternative to the recent Galnet propaganda (about Thargoids attacking Aegis stations): Thargoids aren't going after Aegis, I doubt they're going after their own technology either - everything Aegis have that's Thargoid are things the bugs left lying around on planets and drifting in space, I don't see that they'd care (or they'd better defend the stuff they leave lying around), and as others have said there's got to be lots of Thargoid tech in lots of places all over the place.

It seems more likely that the Thargoids are going after concentrations of Guardian technology.

1) We know Thargoids have a violent negative reaction to Guardian Tech
2) We know Aegis have been making weapons from Guardian Tech
3) It follows that the places that will have the highest concentration of Guardian Tech in the area are Aegis labs.
4) It's not impossible that the Thargoids heading towards the bubble are heading towards Ram Tah's base - the other big concentration of Guardian technology (that we know about) in human space.

It's possible they are just trying to eliminate our ability to hurt them (which is based almost entirely on our use of Guardian technology), but what if the Thargoids have recently started attacking Aegis labs and heading towards the bubble to purge the Guardian technology not because we're using it as weapons, but because of the fact it's Guardian Technology itself? Almost like a crusade?

What's the thoughts on this from Guardian enthusiasts?

That's an interesting line of reasoning, I agree with everything you said. There's just one thing that I find puzzling: why did the Thargoids decide to maim the stations and not destroy them? Then again, some NHSS have ships that are mostly intact...hmmm, I don't know what to think.

 

[Yure]

Thing is, it makes sense they are attacking entities that have collected their technology. Though they might be "peaceful" their assured survival is by ensuring they have an asymmetrical technological advantage. Kinda like US and NK URL.


On a side note. As yesterday I re-read some of the history again for the umpteenth time, I realized I had been misreading something. They are small in matter but I think it gives us more insight onto the ruins structure.

So the history mentions sacred dome and shields. My previous understanding of this was that of "dome shields" but the wording is very specific on the distinction. With the domes being a separate entity from the shield, we can now try to ascertain certain structures in the ruins. What some have conceived as "landing pads" I am now convinced are remnants of these domes.

The other portion to this wording is sacred. One has to ask why were these domes sacred in particular? We're they just blessed by the guardian priest equivalent? Or was there another reason for this sacredness? Did the Guardians have a Pre-Runner species as well as to make these domes sacred?

Speculation for sure and no use going down ifs thens until we have more data. But definitely wanted to point out distinction between the domes and the shields.

A concept artist would do marvellous things here trying to reconstruct such domes....

 

[Louis Calvert]

That's an interesting line of reasoning, I agree with everything you said. There's just one thing that I find puzzling: why did the Thargoids decide to maim the stations and not destroy them? Then again, some NHSS have ships that are mostly intact...hmmm, I don't know what to think.

Argh that's a good point. Hadn't really thought about them not destroying the stations entirely. I think that does really destroy my idea pretty effectively

On a side note. As yesterday I re-read some of the history again for the umpteenth time, I realized I had been misreading something. They are small in matter but I think it gives us more insight onto the ruins structure.

So the history mentions sacred dome and shields. My previous understanding of this was that of "dome shields" but the wording is very specific on the distinction. With the domes being a separate entity from the shield, we can now try to ascertain certain structures in the ruins. What some have conceived as "landing pads" I am now convinced are remnants of these domes.

The other portion to this wording is sacred. One has to ask why were these domes sacred in particular? We're they just blessed by the guardian priest equivalent? Or was there another reason for this sacredness? Did the Guardians have a Pre-Runner species as well as to make these domes sacred?

Speculation for sure and no use going down ifs thens until we have more data. But definitely wanted to point out distinction between the domes and the shields.

A concept artist would do marvellous things here trying to reconstruct such domes....

It's a good idea - I don't really know if those airless-moon bases we're finding should be considered representative of anything from the history files - I'd sort of assumed that most of the "domes" would be on planets, and those little sites we find are just an outpost or something, they're so very, very small.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

Argh that's a good point. Hadn't really thought about them not destroying the stations entirely. I think that does really destroy my idea pretty effectively

It's a good idea - I don't really know if those airless-moon bases we're finding should be considered representative of anything from the history files - I'd sort of assumed that most of the "domes" would be on planets, and those little sites we find are just an outpost or something, they're so very, very small.

Yep, the Ancient Ruin sites are, what we would consider, the Guardian's glorified "Network Routers" in space. These hosted the Monolithic Network as a whole, but would have also been supported by orbital satellites, FTL shipping lanes, and Guardian implants to increase coverage and act as boosters.

Once the Guardians began to disapear, so did the other 3rd party means of keeping the network connected (satellites, ships, implants), so once they had finally gone, the network remained fragmented (hence, lots of different information only available at different locations, in the form of the Ram Tah Entries).

I suspect even if you have several ruins on one planet, despite them being practically next or near to each, they'll be disconnected without the proper support to link them. The Guardians really didn't look after the way they communicated, especially by allowing UPnP with no firewalls

If the Ancient Ruins were connected, then it is feasable that we could get all 101 Entries from just one Ancient Ruin, since the information would be shared over the Monolithic Network. To the best of my knowledge, I do suspect all the ruins are currently independent because of the loss of 3rd party support.

 

[Han_Zen]

Just landed at ruin no1 as the 10 min. to server shut down, ticked in. Good timing.

Now we wait.

 

[Yure]

Yep, the Ancient Ruin sites are, what we would consider, the Guardian's glorified "Network Routers" in space. These hosted the Monolithic Network as a whole, but would have also been supported by orbital satellites, FTL shipping lanes, and Guardian implants to increase coverage and act as boosters.

Once the Guardians began to disapear, so did the other 3rd party means of keeping the network connected (satellites, ships, implants), so once they had finally gone, the network remained fragmented (hence, lots of different information only available at different locations, in the form of the Ram Tah Entries).

I suspect even if you have several ruins on one planet, despite them being practically next or near to each, they'll be disconnected without the proper support to link them. The Guardians really didn't look after the way they communicated, especially by allowing UPnP with no firewalls

If the Ancient Ruins were connected, then it is feasable that we could get all 101 Entries from just one Ancient Ruin, since the information would be shared over the Monolithic Network. To the best of my knowledge, I do suspect all the ruins are currently independent because of the loss of 3rd party support.

Well that really depends. There is enough religious artifacts to suggest that these domes were also built on these moons. For all we know these locations were lush verdant planets that got brain tree nuked into oblivion.

The other side of the coin is that if they had made home in ELW we should have picked up signals as well... Wether we could land on them or not, we should have picked up signals.

 

[Thatchinho]

Just landed at ruin no1 as the 10 min. to server shut down, ticked in. Good timing.

Now we wait.

Out of rep!

 

[Thatchinho]

Well that really depends. There is enough religious artifacts to suggest that these domes were also built on these moons. For all we know these locations were lush verdant planets that got brain tree nuked into oblivion.

Yep - from H18: "The war eventually destroyed the Guardians’ habitats, forcing them to retreat into ‘sacred’ domes protected by powerful shields"