Guilds in Elite Dangerous

[Cathy]

@ Cathy

Once again, I don't think that will happen in ED, and I explain why lower down. But would you agree that a guild channel in chat (or whatever comms system we have) would be a useful thing?

I don't think there are plans for open chat channels (of the type we see in MMOs); but there might be an alliance-wide comms mechanic for ships in the same instance, so they can co-ordinate during a combat engagement, for example. The in-game comms is quite versatile - you can limit it to predefined messages (like those you'd use with npcs), ship-to-ship text, or ship-to-ship voice chat.

I imagine that most serious alliances will go outside game to voice chat (Ventrillo, Mumble, Teamspeak and the like), just like traditional MMO guilds do. Those set-ups persist outside the game, of course, so there's continuity for members of alliances between game logins there.

 

[Hellhawk666]

@Hellhawk

If you just wanted a social channel for friends to talk in, we've already got that (second bullet point in Player to Player section).

So the only thing missing is a tag before/after your name showing a guild affiliation.

But that's not the same thing - they are implementing a system where you send a direct "tell" to someone you already know. Where is the "Hi guys, say hello to Fred, new guild member" GROUP communication. Like I said "friends/ignore" is an exclusive dynamic, not an inclusive one.

Sure, it would be at least a minor benefit to have guild tags added to names, but even that does not exist, which is my whole beef.

 

[Hamerstein]

And permanence of membership and group..... it should be a mechanism to band people together socially. But it doesn't have to have content specific for guilds...

I appreciate what you're proposing there Caribou. But how would it really work in ED, given the distances involved?

In pretty much every MMO I've played, there were ways of getting from A to B really quickly (the worlds were small or there was integrated fast travelling or player based fast travelling).

What's the point in having a guild if it's members are spread across 5000 light years of space, which might take several hours to get them all in one place to do something?

The galaxy is 100,000 LYs across and eventually we're going to be spread all over it.

If we implement fast travel, we shrink the universe. If we have dedicated guild-avatars we're rail-roaded into how we play (we have to be online with avatar X to play with the guild). If we don't have dedicated avatars we have to be mindful of how far we are from our guild members or we might as well not be guilded (except for social chatting).

It's a bit of a can of worms.

 

[Hamerstein]

Face it - FD are building an online game that is catering to people who by and large do not want to play online and consequently is actively discouraging players from being social, apart from in small, exclusive groups of friends who are already know to each other.

Fair dos, I take your point.

But given that ED is set in space (and ED's space is Doug Adams style BIG), I think the FD model for handling how social we all are is spot on.

EDIT - Sorry I quoted you before you removed it Hellhawk, but for the record I didn't consider it contentious, you were expressing your view and I respect that .

 

[Hellhawk666]

I don't think there are plans for open chat channels (of the type we see in MMOs); but there might be an alliance-wide comms mechanic for ships in the same instance, so they can co-ordinate during a combat engagement, for example. The in-game comms is quite versatile - you can limit it to predefined messages (like those you'd use with npcs), ship-to-ship text, or ship-to-ship voice chat.

I imagine that most serious alliances will go outside game to voice chat (Ventrillo, Mumble, Teamspeak and the like), just like traditional MMO guilds do. Those set-ups persist outside the game, of course, so there's continuity for members of alliances between game logins there.

That's all quite true, but the problem is that alliances will be very transitory - people will log in looking for some fast group instancing for a few fights, then log off and it will be over. How do you co-ordinate Teamspeak for that? Answer: A guild that has a persistant life so that your "friends" and "alliances" ingame have a continuing life and a focus.

It really doesn't need to go much further than that (and with no complex guild reward system never would).

 

[Caribou]

If we implement fast travel, we shrink the universe. If we have dedicated guild-avatars we're rail-roaded into how we play (we have to be online with avatar X to play with the guild). If we don't have dedicated avatars we have to be mindful of how far we are from our guild members or we might as well not be guilded (except for social chatting).

It's a bit of a can of worms.

I do take your point, but again it doesn't have to be that way - If no one is about then perhaps a passing stranger can help and then maybe join the guild too? Then as the new member floats about the void he has people he can chat to, get advice from and possibly get help from. No pressure to help, just a request. If no one is about then he'll muddle along. But if there is a willing local guild member then yes he'll get a wing-man to help.


I actually had to consider Hailing in my ramble above and I guess localized hailing is the only option for lone wolves who need help. I'm not sure if that works for me (PvP wise), I'll probably just leave any content I can't do alone....

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Not that it necessarily has much bearing on the guilds argument (which having not played MMORPGs, I'm pretty ignorant on) but you didn't mention the friends list. Hopefully the tools for that will be sophisticated enough to help organise various social groups.

The bonus point for deliberate* omission of an obvious way to keep in touch with people goes to Slawkenbergius






*Good spot - I fail ...

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Ultimately this is my Opinion and Feeling, but you asked...

It is, sadly, an accurate reflection of the game ED.

I did have some hope a while ago that FD would make ships with an inception date and that pilots could trade them (to create "Daves Dodgy Ship Merchant") a wheeler and dealer in 2nd hand ships ... to one day find that rare Cobra, still working, with an inception date of Jan 1st 3300 ... but sadly no.

I am sure in time FD will add more content / activities to the game

For the time being though the forums, I have noticed, have a mood of their own and for me it's taken a downswing (no one's fault) so it's time to back off I think and attempt (haha) to do something else for a while.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

For the time being though the forums, I have noticed, have a mood of their own and for me it's taken a downswing (no one's fault) so it's time to back off I think and attempt (haha) to do something else for a while.

I've been taking a break, getting refreshed ready for the craziness that alpha will bring.

 

[withnail]

Feel all talked out on the game, looking forward to playing something now.

 

[Philip Coutts]

I have found a number of threads getting quite frustrating with arguments going round and round and there are now some threads I just don't read anymore. I get the feeling that Alpha can't come soon enough. I guess there's only so much to be said about a game that hasn't been released yet!

Dragging this back on topic, I'm not bothered if there are guilds or not. I tend to play games in a friendly manner and will help anyone that asks. Now be that during the game or posting a thread here with advice on good trade routes for a beginner I'm not that bothered. THere's a lot of folks on this forum that I'd like to fly with and a few I'd rather not but I'm not sure it needs to be wrapped up as tightly as guilds.

 

[Caribou]

It is, sadly, an accurate reflection of the game ED.

I did have some hope a while ago that FD would make ships with an inception date and that pilots could trade them (to create "Daves Dodgy Ship Merchant") a wheeler and dealer in 2nd hand ships ... to one day find that rare Cobra, still working, with an inception date of Jan 1st 3300 ... but sadly no.

I am sure in time FD will add more content / activities to the game

For the time being though the forums, I have noticed, have a mood of their own and for me it's taken a downswing (no one's fault) so it's time to back off I think and attempt (haha) to do something else for a while.

Yes... I was waiting for Vouchers to appear and got drawn in to this. But actually Susimetas question was quite useful for me since I often wine about the direction but hadn't defined what my problem was (Thanks due for that :smilie: )

I find I ignore a lot now although I do read everything over a week and thats pretty much what I'll be doing...

To get back on topic and off my downer - Guilds are not in, and won't be in the short term - it's sad but true. So we'll all have to get on with it

 

[Slawkenbergius]

To get back on topic and off my downer - Guilds are not in, and won't be in the short term - it's sad but true. So we'll all have to get on with it

I think people can be a bit fatalistic regarding how certain features are going to be handled. If it pans out that something approximating guild support is really needed, it should become clear during the beta/gamma stages, and Frontier will implement it. If it's not needed, then it's not needed! The design process is fluid, and real-world testing will put paid to some of Frontier's notions of how the game should work.

 

[Cathy]

@ Hellhawk 666 -

Something that bothers me though: if you add game support for guilds (even without complex rewards as you suggest) rather than letting players organise themselves into such things externally, how does that affect the networking architecture (apologies if I use the wrong term - I am not very techy)?

Is it another layer of complexity on the matchmaking system built for the peer-to-peer thing? What if a lot of guild members want to get together and do stuff, because the game has codified the guilding (lol... autocomplete so desperately wants me to write "gelding" here I'm inclined to let it ) ... and then the guildies have a right to complain, imo, if the peer-to-peer limits just won't let them.

Far better I think to have the current proposal for friends lists and alliances in game, and leave any further formalising for now to the players if they want to.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

TLDR version of my opinion on guilds - having guilds supporting infrastructure in the game is double edged sword. I always wanted to like them in MMOs I have played, but they really don't work that well if you are not a hardcore player. Therefore combination of friend list and just be open and welcome to everyone asking for help (for a price) could be really novel and very interesting way to pull in casual players in adventures. Having special guild features could work against this concept.

Long version - I love doing stuff in groups in MMOs. While I am more pro environment content as next guy, it is just plain fun to have with other human players. It is just very important aspect of MMO gaming.

However, guilds have never worked for me. I have always had more help from complete and random strangers met by accident or by crying for help. I also always have more fun this way. Friends works too, but that's kinda obvious.

Said all that, I really want to have lot of unofficial guilds in ED, driven by some moral/immoral/whatever code, like fair pirates, or nasty imperials, or slave liberators... I just really don't think they should show up in game explicitly. Hey, it could be even waved into fabric of Elite lore. Let them be a mystic forces which drives universe forward.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Something that bothers me though: if you add game support for guilds (even without complex rewards as you suggest) rather than letting players organise themselves into such things externally, how does that affect the networking architecture (apologies if I use the wrong term - I am not very techy)?

For services such as text messages between Guild members you would normally employ the use of a central server to act as the gatekeeper rather than use P2P links. The overhead is relatively lightweight as you're broadcasting text from a sender to multiple recipients. This wouldn't change the NW architecture as such as pilots already need to communicate with FDs servers anyway - perhaps the increase in BW though is why FD are not keen on the idea. (More BW = more running costs)

 

[Cosmos]

I guess you are talking about how exploring turns out, but even so Guilds/Organisations/Factions are just collections of players - it's up to you to put the back story and what you might share between yourselves. (I.E. beauty spot found in system X - go to these coordinates and look at the Gas Giant for a great view..., Go to Y for great mining....)

In Game Guilds (Contrary to the general Eve view) can be constructive. The problem with the lack of support in game is that the help will only be available if you have some external mechanism to ask for it... (I need help with a route I can't complete, anyone spare a few minutes / Near the degoba system? This is how the guilds worked in WoW for me...)

This Game and its grouping system doesn't really facilitate cooperation directly. You need to ask strangers for help in the All group or enter into TEMPORARY groups (Alliances) which cease to exist the moment the last player leaves the game. All fine if everyone is friendly...

My Point is, it doesn't really matter how the game turns out, the lack of game support (my Opinion) will force any "guild" to be manual and clunky so if people want to get together they may as well do and plan the future (Teamspeak, IRC(?), Cliqueware(tm) etc...) it'll happen and it will exclude people in game who don't search the web..../ get lucky...

I'd very much agree with Caribou on this and it was my initial point when I replied to the OP.

What a guild/clan system should offer is a way to support those who wish to co-ordinate their game-play together. Its true you can have good and bad experiences with others but that shouldn't be a reason to not provide solid multi-player functionality and an ad-hoc lobby system isn't going to cut it.

A key element to online gaming and why people often continue playing is group play and supporting the friends they make in a game. By not providing strong ways for multiple people to organise and form their own particular community within the game we risk people dropping out because its too hard to make friends and be part of a fun group. It also makes it much much harder to find new friends and stay connected as a group.

I've had experience of all sorts of guilds, good and bad, but I always made friendships whilst playing in them - some that now exist long after that game or guild went out of fashion. Hanging out with friends and a guild were often the reason we all signed on.

For anyone who has run a guild you'll understand how much time and effort it can require. Without solid tools in game to help those people organise events etc, there life is made much much harder and there will be little social cohesion - other than isolated cliques.

If we consider starcraft 2 - an extremely popular rts game, they have now even put in a clan system into that game, largely in response to the threat posed by Dota2, which had far superior support for organising groups of people.. And that game (sc2) is centered around a 1v1 situation.

This area of the game might seem like a nice thing to have but its far more important that most people think.

 

[Nagual]

I dislike most MMO guild set ups, mainly because of the focus it seems to drive the game by. But having either group or alliance settings stay after logging off would go a long way to facilitate the needs and remove some of the concerns of those in this thread.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

A key element to online gaming and why people often continue playing is group play and supporting the friends they make in a game. By not providing strong ways for multiple people to organise and form their own particular community within the game we risk people dropping out because its too hard to make friends and be part of a fun group. It also makes it much much harder to find new friends and stay connected as a group.

This comment sums it up nicely.

I played WoW for years, a monthly fee game, as it was hard to leave and say goodbye to people.

The throwback of "oh, it's Elite" isn't enough for todays generation as they don't know what that was .. We did, that's why we pledged, but there's only 30K of us and I so want a server brimming with life that FD have to expand!

 

[Nagual]

I so want a server brimming with life that FD have to expand!

You want it brimming with potential prey...