Powerplay Has Frontier Quit PowerPlay?

[John Adams]

Don't worry, FDevs got your back.
They put Hudson HQ as far away from imperial border as they possibly could. So even if we could get those "nice patronage governments," we would get shafted by distance penalties.

Yawn, you guys are doing just fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, why are the Alliance and Empire on opposite sides of the Federation? Wasn't the Alliance started by the Empire and Federation squabbling over territory? Shouldn't said territory be in between the Empire and the Federation, where they would be likely to squabble? What was the Empire doing up in the galactic north, over 300LY from the nearest Imperial system? What were they even thinking when they designed this?

Because Alioth is in the correct location in the galaxy. It's lore - we have had 3 elite games already.

Also regarding the ships, they are anaesthetically different in style. I quite like the Core Dynamics style. Plus in 1.4 they are adding the Fereral Gunship and the Federal Assault ship. Think of the poor Alliance who don't have anything.

 

[ROSS-128]

Yawn, you guys are doing just fine.

- - - Updated - - -



Because Alioth is in the correct location in the galaxy. It's lore - we have had 3 elite games already.

Well that sounds like something they should retcon because it clearly wasn't thought through, or write a very entertaining story with a bloody good reason why the Empire undertook such a logistical folly in the first place (perhaps the Emperor around that time was terribly drunk? Perhaps his name was Caligula?). If we're going to have such a silly situation, I might as well get some good reading material out of it.

 

[Vasious]

I do wonder if Lavigny's successes in power play are being seen in the narrative.
Such as the hints she is still the Heir, with Florence walking in the Empress Consorts role at the funeral.

 

[Vasious]

Well that sounds like something they should retcon because it clearly wasn't thought through, or write a very entertaining story with a bloody good reason why the Empire undertook such a logistical folly in the first place (perhaps the Emperor around that time was terribly drunk? Perhaps his name was Caligula?). If we're going to have such a silly situation, I might as well get some good reading material out of it.

This is the Gazetteer entry on Alioth from Frontier:Elite 2
From the date it seems like it would be an early colony and possibly a Liaedin analogue

Spoiler

Alioth

Alioth presents a star system of enormous potential. yet to be fully exploited by its colonists. It has had a chequered history in terms of political dominance, and both Empire and Federation forces have fought over the rights to control the system. The only period when both Empire and Federation have acted together towards Alioth was the Quaterson revolution of 2617 when the people of Gordonworld attempted to wrest freedom from both major powers. Quentin Devisises led a coup to try and establish Gordonworld (then known as `Fruitcake') as a local capital of free traders, but was ruthlessly suppressed by a rare combined naval action of Federation and Empire navies.

New California was terraformed shortly thereafter, using an experimental accelerated program of genetic modifications. The Empire initiated the methods which met with mixed success in this trial planet. In later years the approach has become more reliable, but the native colonists of New California occasionally exhibit unusual traits which are carry overs from the mutagenic past. This is partly responsible for the favour show towards the Federation by New Californians. If carried out to the letter the Empire's attitude to racial purity would call for a repopulation of the colony and removal the affected inhabitants. To prevent this, there is a permanent petition for recognition as a Federation protectorate from the population of New Califomia.

The experimental origins of the planet of New California in no way detract from its beauty and the mutagens buried in the environment are of no danger to tourists. ( NOTE: Anyone planning to stay longer than 300 standard days should ensure they receive the appropriate vaccination and chemical therapies after 200 days and at regular intervals thereafter). The system as a whole presents a stunning visual appearance, with an abundance of gas giants orbiting the giant central star. It has been compared in its compelling beautyl to the sextuple sun systems of Andbephi or Ioaray. The star inspired the flash-rock group Jjagged Bbanner's first quad platinum recording `Sungrazing' which led to their enormous rise to popularity.

The enormous hydrocarbon resources made available by the large number of gas giants, as well as the primary star of the system have led to a huge plastics industry based at this system. The scientists of Nesbitt Landing introduced the quinker process and led to a revolution in robot production techniques. They still lead the Federation in many aspects of design and production of automata, especially androids. These products are highly sought after amongst the Empire worlds.

Liaedin

Spoiler

Liaedin

The hot white star of Liaedin sears the surface of Schneider Colony with a bright actinic glare. The inhabitants have come to leam that hiding from the light, especially in the midday hours is vitally necessary to avoid dangerous skin cancers. In local slang, a trip out in the midday sun is to invoke `death from above'. The locals have a very sanguine attitude to life and death, since in the past few hundred years they have been subject to far more `death from above' than just the sunlight.

Schneider Colony has had numerous starports established in the past and New Cousens is only the latest in a long line of local capitals. The remains of some of the others dot the landscape here and there, scattered amongst radioactive craters and pock-marks form other debris of the almost continual skirmishing over the planet between the Federation and Empire. The planet is catalogued in most libraries as being `disputed' but the true situation is that the population are in an almost continual state of civil war, and neither the Federation nor Empire seem very keen to end the situation.

The burning surface of New Cousens supports a very vigorous form of native life, which have a very rapid growth cycle. Some plants sprout from nothing to full growth, reproduce and then decay within a single day, since they are killed by the midday light. Earth crops have not adapted well to the harsh environment and most colonists survive on hydroponic crops grown in filtered light in sheltered darkhouses. There are few large animals native to the world;the largest so far discovered is a burrowing worm 20 metres long which inhabits the tropical deserts which lie in two bands just South and North of the planetary poles.

The presence of the giant worms in the deserts of Schneider Colony was revealed by the peculiar metal rich patterns detected in the initial orbital survey of the world, conducted by Theodore Schneider. He believed the intricate patterns to be the work of native intelligences eager to give messages to visiting astronauts. When it was discovered that they were merely the waste products of a native worm with less intelligence than an average dog, Schneider relinquished claim on the world and flew off in search of true extra terrestrial intelligence.

Theodore Schneider left the colony in the hands of two families, the Blossoms and the Faveols. The Blossom family contracted a group of planetary engineers to pursue the exploitation of the seas, which are very mineral rich. The Faveols imported Empire technology and bred a hybrid worm which burrowed deeper into the deserts and actively sought out

mineral rich earth. The Faveols leave a trail of enriched ores as they move through the ground, which can be easily harvested with cheap mechanical devices. The secrets of the sea mines and the hunting worms have been protected diligently and handed down from one generation to the next and are undoubtedly the best kept secrets on the planet.

It has become traditional to call for assistance from either the Empire (for the descendants of the Faveols) or the Federation (for the Blossoms) at the slightest infringement of the convoluted territorial laws on Schneider's Colony, or if mineral quotas are exceeded by either family. The Federation and Empire both seem content to continue the dispute. perhaps viewing it as a good testing ground for new military hardware, without wishing to start conflict in more prosperous areas.

The Federation maintain a small permanent force at Wilson Base, on Ulrich' s rock, while the Empire has taken over Moore's World and the small starport of Smith Town. Visitors to any of these worlds should be aware of the constant tension which prevails and the delicate politics which prevents full scale war from breaking out here. Be very careful to ensure that all documents are up to date and accurate before venturing into this system.

 

[Ben Ryder]

FD have a way of drooping a boulder and not picking the nuts out

 

[Mikalus]

You keep mixing up the Major Factions with Powers.

Hudson is a combat focused power - his method of maintaining controlling of systems is a show of strength to maintain law and order. Doesn't sound like a democracy would like that. He's not even getting penalised for democracy, only against dictatorships.

So it has been set up for Hudson to have the most hawkish behaviour of the Federal factions and kick off against Imperial powers who have those nice patronage governments he benefits from controlling.

Looks like its working as intended.

Read this: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=170461

- - - Updated - - -

No harder than Torval has holding onto patronage and she has a harder time controlling democracies than Hudson.

It makes sense from the Powers Control and Expansion Ethos.

I believe that when the system was originally designed the Ethos system is working as intended. The issue was that Powerplay had a slow uptake and still does. Originally we didn't have financial incentives in the original design and this was changed because people made the reasonable decision not to take part as the benfits of doing so outways the risk.

Then came the income payout and the masses entered, working toward that rank 5 and 50 million payout. Hence the massive differences in plegders and there reasons for pledging.

So there's a design flaw in Torval not being able to hold on to patronage and in Hudson not being able to hold onto democracies...why would you make it difficult for those two powers to hold on their respective types of governments? It makes no sense to me.

 

[ffr]

Fdev hasn't given up on PP

Evidence?

 

[Heavensburn]

I think PP was doomed from the start simply because they implemented Open and Solo play in the same galaxy. They should be separate galaxies. Separate pilot accounts. If people want to play solo, fine. Let them play actual Solo, and not some hybrid version of Solo that bypasses risk/joy of PvP.

Bingo. Create a sub-game that is designed to encourage community/co-operative play between players in support of a faction, and then say, "But we'll let the solos play, too" just doesn't work.

It's like inviting friends over to play poker, and having that one guy's pesky girlfriend show up... Instead of saying, "Honey, go watch TV", we let her play solitaire from the same deck the rest are using for poker... She's upset, the mates are upset and we all end up going home angry.

 

[Apos]

No harder than Torval has holding onto patronage and she has a harder time controlling democracies than Hudson.

It makes sense from the Powers Control and Expansion Ethos.

I believe that when the system was originally designed the Ethos system is working as intended. The issue was that Powerplay had a slow uptake and still does. Originally we didn't have financial incentives in the original design and this was changed because people made the reasonable decision not to take part as the benfits of doing so outways the risk.

Then came the income payout and the masses entered, working toward that rank 5 and 50 million payout. Hence the massive differences in plegders and there reasons for pledging.

How is it working as intended when:

Mahon doesn't favor democracies and cooperatives.
Hudson doesn't favor corporates. And no, it doesn't make sense for him to favor FEUDALS just because he has combat. A warmonger could stem from any political fabric and a corrupted corporate or democratic government is not far away from a patronage as well.
Torval doesn't favor dictatorships and patronages as a traditionalist imperial.
And the best of all: Delaine favors confederacies instead of anarchies. Give Delaine USA and he is happy.

Antal is the only one who makes any sense. And he still shouldn't favor feudals.

There is no excuses other than FD taking the easy way out and tying the government types with the ethos instead of the person depicted.

Additionaly, why does what FD wants applies to everyone else except the Empire? It's fine for hudson to have total fortification cost with 50 systems higher than what Arissa has with 71. It's fine for Mahon to be called someone who turns the Alliance to a capitalist state. It's fine for everything except for when Patreus was called the murdered of the emperor. No. That would be retconned because the Imperials didn't want to fight each other. I guess the fact that the Alliance never wanted to promote corporations in order to be able to survive long-term due to having a low player count which is in dire need of lower fortification triggers is not as important. We remain a bunch of corporate pigs because FD said so.

 

[Martin Schou]

Can't take down ALD? The ALD Zerg will win all? Neither of these statements are true. The biggest threat to ALD right now is Mahon, and manpower is the only reason Mahon isn't kicking ALD down the stairs.

No, that is not a joke in any way, shape or form. Mahon has shown time and time again, that we have the resources and manpower to fortify enough of our systems to stay afloat against the horde. What we do not have is the manpower to undermine, because we're not really built for that.

As for taking down ALD ... well, sure, she can fortify all of her systems. Big deal - she cannot afford to pay her default upkeeps, so if she's been properly undermined, her fortifying everything will still leave her in turmoil. Do that for multiple weeks in a row, and she'll drop from the #1 spot faster than an anvil through a rice paper helmet. Once she's out of the top 3, her insane bonuses will dry up, and her pledges won't be as keen on zerging everything.

It needs to be smart undermining though, because if people simply undermine all of her systems, she'll start out by losing the bad systems first, which is the wrong way of going about it. A smart attacker will be targeting everything that is profitable

So - if your main goal in powerplay is to put ALD down, you need to defect to Mahon and organize some properly thought out undermining strategies.

 

[xDreadnoughtx]

Once she's out of the top 3, her insane bonuses will dry up, and her pledges won't be as keen on zerging everything

I have complete confidence with your analysis of the numbers. I have always admired your work over on the reddit.
But the bit I quoted is important. By your statement the ALD bonuses are "insane". They are in fact out of step with those of other powers. Dare I say OP? Yes...the primary cause right there and it should not be up to us at Winters, Mahon and Hudson to have to either have to artificially combine ops to an unlikely level, or to encourage defection to Mahon for that purpose.

It needs dealing with by FD

To Yuls original question.

Yes, I think FD are too wrapped up in other things. The best people, the brightest, who might be able to plan for a reasonable adjustment, are no longer working on it.

Also...imagine the tears from largest PP power. There are entire lunar craters that could not contain them.

 

[fergal]

I guess Delaine supporters must be really bad at flipping systems. I mean, confederacies and communist systems? Pfff, easy, step up your game boys.

We've currently got 2 (out of 4 possible) Control systems on one of the government types that should reduce their fortification triggers.
But it doesn't.

Just another Delaine bug

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=179900

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=166662

 

[Nicodemus]

If the Imperial factions actually started a civil war amongst themselves PP would be a lot more interesting. This is the current problem for PP as far as I can see it, we have a clique of powers that do little to each other which allows them all to focus on everyone else. If the Imperial powers kicked off amongst themselves it would change PP to something that would be a lot more interesting.

 

[DanTheMan]

So very, very glad I chose to ignore the Powerplay nonsense entirely.
Got my Elite via trading, have 500M in cash and another 500M in ships and now working on my Combat Elite.
Not getting sidetracked by PP & CQC is a blessing.

 

[fergal]

So very, very glad I chose to ignore the Powerplay nonsense entirely.
Got my Elite via trading, have 500M in cash and another 500M in ships and now working on my Combat Elite.
Not getting sidetracked by PP & CQC is a blessing.

Power play is horribly flawed, its still better than not having it.

The elite galaxy is barren and empty.
Everything looks the same.
Once you have flown a few ships, and done some bulletin board missions there is nothing new.

Without PP I doubt I would still be playing ED.

Why does ALD has so much support? Well I was pledged to her for the first 4 weeks of Powerplay and I know why I joined.
I had spent most of my time in Imperial space, after trying the Clipper in the beta I decided it was worth the bother of getting an Imperial rank, and I spend my time following around the news stories looking for PvP at combat zones mentioned in them.

So I was joining an Imperial faction, there were 4 to choose from, Torval had the capital "highest" which meant the federation systems conquered on the way to Sol would have the lowest upkeep, but she had bonuses for traders / miners.

I'm not a trader or miner. Aisling was the furthest from the Federation, and again looked like a trader for people who really don't want any conflict, shes all hidden away and safe down there.

Patreus was combat orientated and was on the federation border, and I had followed his stories around looking for PvP, but I though he would have the most amount of players joining, and I cant follow someone with that hair.
His bonus was also useless.

So that left ALD, closer to Sol and who just happened to have the best bonuses by far.
I'm not sure if everyone actually realizes how good they are.

All bounties and fines are doubled, what does this do? When you kill an NPC it will tell you the amount you get, like 20000cr.
Well its actually added as 40000cr.

So right there is the best bonus in the game, but it doesn't stop there.

You then get an increase to bounty hunting money (and somehow this is also combat zone credits) of 20% which stacks with the 100% bounty increase.

AND, if you are rating 2 you get another 20% stacked on top, or 50% if she is ranked 1st, which she normally is now.

You can earn money so fast at resource extraction sites.

Add to this the Imperial Hammer, a unique weapon that can be used, unlike the majority of the Powers weapons.

And to just put the icing on the cake, in 1.4 there is a buff to railguns armour pen and a nerf to all other weapons, so I imagine the Imperial Hammer gets this buff too.

At the same time, not one Power weapon has been balanced, I'd like to know what weapons anyone actually uses, other than for LOLs.

 

[znôrt]

It is far easier to work a Crime Sweep, earning both Bounty Payouts and Merits, even though they pay less than Undermining Merits at 30 per kill.

Wait, seriously? The ships in ALD's expansion events have BOUNTIES on them? Seriously, FD?

no, that's just badly worded. people rank up in cs, then go bh.

 

[Brujah]

So I wonder if some sort of balancing of rewards as a function of playerbase might be the way to fix one power massively outgunning the others.

It makes some kind of sense; it costs a huge amount of money to pay all these salaries, and the income from extra systems arguably doesn't quite cover it. So if the size of the playerbase had an effect on the size of the salary each player received, this would be a huge incentive to switch support to the underdogs.

So, as a very basic example, let's say each Power has 100MCr multiplied by the number of control systems they have to dish out in salaries.

EXAMPLE 1 - Hudson

So let's say Hudson has 50 control systems, that means the total available salary budget is 5GCr.

Let's say Hudson has 1000 supporters broken down as follows:

100 rank 5 (total 5GCr)
400 rank 4 (total 2GCr)
300 rank 3 (total 150MCr)
100 rank 2 (total 5MCr)
100 rank 1 (total 100KCr)

Grand Total: 7.1551GCr

Which is 143% of the available budget. So, as a result, everyone's salary would be capped at 69.9% of its maximum in order to fit it within budget, as follows:

100 rank 5 (total 3.495GCr - 34,950,000 each)
400 rank 4 (total 1.398GCr - 3,495,000Cr each)
300 rank 3 (total 104.85MCr - 349,500Cr each)
100 rank 2 (total 3.495MCr - 34,950Cr each)
100 rank 1 (total 69.9KCr - 699Cr each)

EXAMPLE 2 - Delaine

Now take Delaine, with say 300 supporters and 30 control systems:

3GCr total salary budget:

50 rank 5 (total 2.5GCr)
100 rank 4 (total 500MCr)
75 rank 3 (total 37.5MCr)
50 rank 2 (total 2.5MCr)
25 rank 1 (total 25KCr)

Grand Total: 3.04GCr (so allowing for rounding, every Delaine CMDR should receive their full salary).

 

[ROSS-128]

Can't take down ALD? The ALD Zerg will win all? Neither of these statements are true. The biggest threat to ALD right now is Mahon, and manpower is the only reason Mahon isn't kicking ALD down the stairs.

No, that is not a joke in any way, shape or form. Mahon has shown time and time again, that we have the resources and manpower to fortify enough of our systems to stay afloat against the horde. What we do not have is the manpower to undermine, because we're not really built for that.

As for taking down ALD ... well, sure, she can fortify all of her systems. Big deal - she cannot afford to pay her default upkeeps, so if she's been properly undermined, her fortifying everything will still leave her in turmoil. Do that for multiple weeks in a row, and she'll drop from the #1 spot faster than an anvil through a rice paper helmet. Once she's out of the top 3, her insane bonuses will dry up, and her pledges won't be as keen on zerging everything.

It needs to be smart undermining though, because if people simply undermine all of her systems, she'll start out by losing the bad systems first, which is the wrong way of going about it. A smart attacker will be targeting everything that is profitable

So - if your main goal in powerplay is to put ALD down, you need to defect to Mahon and organize some properly thought out undermining strategies.

I'm guessing that's because of how Mahon has expanded around the Federation, so he now has systems close to ALD space?

At any rate, one fortunate thing that will help taking down ALD is that she has expanded into very poor systems. The main thing that prevents Hudson from taking her down is that she has Torval as a buffer state, so we can't sic our vast horde of merit grinders on her. They get absorbed by Torval. If we were able to push our control zone up to ALD's borders, she probably will buckle hard when the legion of merit grinders descends upon her.

However, even without sitting in the top 3 her bonuses are still head and shoulders above all the other factions. And after a few rounds of turmoil, her huge player base would eventually stabilize her. A rank 6 ALD is arguably still more profitable than a Rank 3 Hudson, thanks to her 20% base bounty bonus.

A Rating 2 ALD pledger, when ALD is at Rank 6, would get her base bonus of 20%, the rating 2 20% bonus on kill, and the rating 2 20% again on turn-in. This gives an effective bonus of 1.2*1.2*1.2=1.728, or 72.8%. That's the bare minimum ALD bonus. Hudson at rank 3 would be getting 30% on kill and 30% on turn-in, for 1.3*1.3=1.69, or 69%. Hudson doesn't pass ALD until he reaches Rank 2. And Hudson has the second best bonuses in the game, all the other factions are much worse off (Winters, for example). And that's putting aside the fact that the Rating 5 bonus is independent of Power rank.

Even if we take away her Torval safety blanket, ALD is not going to bleed players as long as those bonuses remain so far ahead of everyone else. If anything, when the buffer states (Torval and Petreus) fall, Aisling supporters are going to flee to ALD in droves when the anime princess starts imploding. FD need to sit down and think really hard about how profitable they want PP bonuses to be, and then work on getting all the factions onto the same page. That said, I'm sure everyone would love their own power becoming as profitable as ALD. Otherwise, ALD will continue to be a black hole that sucks in an ever larger share of the player base over time.

no, that's just badly worded. people rank up in cs, then go bh.

Well, that's good news. ALD is ridiculous enough without that, if it had been true it would have meant FD went completely off the deep end.

 

[fergal]

This gives an effective bonus of 1.2*1.2*1.2=1.728, or 72.8%.

Where are you getting these numbers from?
its 1.2*1.2*2

 

[Apos]

A Rating 2 ALD pledger, when ALD is at Rank 6, would get her base bonus of 20%, the rating 2 20% bonus on kill, and the rating 2 20% again on turn-in. This gives an effective bonus of 1.2*1.2*1.2=1.728, or 72.8%. That's the bare minimum ALD bonus. Hudson at rank 3 would be getting 30% on kill and 30% on turn-in, for 1.3*1.3=1.69, or 69%. Hudson doesn't pass ALD until he reaches Rank 2. And Hudson has the second best bonuses in the game, all the other factions are much worse off (Winters, for example). And that's putting aside the fact that the Rating 5 bonus is independent of Power rank.

A rating 5 ALD pledger gets 480% more credits from bounties and combat bonds. It's bugged, it has been reported, it has been verified as bug, it's still not fixed.