Head look target lock... good idea?

[the100thmonkey]

True.. You could do that with TrackIR software too. I guess I didn't think of it because realistically I'd never set my curves that high because it would make typical use feel like a nightmare.

Actually, after thinking about it for a sec, you can't do this with TrackIR because the game stops the camera from rotating at a certain point. I don't even have my TrackIR set high enough to do a 180 degree turn but my head motion still gets stopped by the game at a little over 90 degrees.

Are you sure Opentrack can do that in Elite?

I know that it used to be able to, but I capped it at 90 anyway as I found it difficult to control the headlook. Regardless of game limitations, Opentrack can, if possible in the engine, manage the full 360x360.

 

[Devari]

It really staggers me that the Devs aren't hanging on your every word, desperate to implement every suggestion that you make as quickly as possible. I mean, you always ask so nicely ...

It really staggers me that you don't seem to realize that players have been asking for these basic improvement since before the game launched and have been consistently ignored. Obviously "asking nicely" isn't going to get their attention so perhaps a focused critique of the current state of gameplay is more appropriate at this stage?

 

[Devari]

FWIW, I have the mouse-look button on my throttle and then one of the hats on my joystick doubles as a head-look control.
It's not quite as slick as a proper padlock view but it's handy for stuff like turning onto a USS, jump-point or hostile target.

I tried something this briefly where I would use my joystick's hat switch to allow my view to track "upwards" as I was used pitch to get weapons on a target. I quickly found it was too slow and clumsy to be worth the effort in most cases, especially given the need to use yaw combined with pitch control to optimize my maneuvering. Plus my hat swtich was much more useful for power pip management which is basically perfectly suited for a four-direction hat and essentially required if you plan on managing power pips with your throttle or HOTAS.

If we had a proper padlock toggle however I could readily switch between "target track" and "forward look" modes where I can switch between them instantly using a single button when needed. I don't think I would have any difficulty flying in this mode because I am very readily used to this from playing various flight sim games.

Regardless of the original reasons for not implementing a proper padlock view, I suspect it probably wouldn't be entirely wise to rely on it in ED.
We already have people howling about cops flying into their laser fire.
With a padlock view in use, I suspect it might end up like bumper-cars in RESs.

It is still a very old feature that has been used in flight sims since the early 1990s and is considered a gameplay standard for anyone who plays those types of games. As I mentioned earlier, Elite is obviously not a flight sim and I doubt the devs have any actual experience playing a proper flight sim much less programming one. They are literally treating Elite like it should be programmed as if it's an arcade game given their preference for "Street fighter button combos" rather than basic flight sim control which have been used within the industry for literally 25 years.

 

[the100thmonkey]

With even minimal headlook capabilities, such as only mapping a vertical axis to your preferred solution, the radar display is much more than adequate. A target padlock isn't really necessary when you have realtime information on the target's location and orientation onscreen.

Such information isn't available in classic flight sims.

 

[Metal Angel]

Padlock generally does have more of an advantage over VR, in that unless coded otherwise can track targets through your ship's hull and allows the view to gimbal way outside the limits of the human neck.

I just want it for more immersion. Looking through the ship’s hull or at an awkward neck angle would be the opposite of that. I just assumed if they did it it would only work within the normal field of view. And also, if a feature is available to everyone, it’s an advantage to no one. VR on the other hand, is not available to everyone, so that is much more of an “unfair advantage” situation.

 

[Devari]

With even minimal headlook capabilities, such as only mapping a vertical axis to your preferred solution, the radar display is much more than adequate. A target padlock isn't really necessary when you have realtime information on the target's location and orientation onscreen.

Such information isn't available in classic flight sims.

Whether or not I have a radar display isn't the point here. I should be able to automatically look "up" without messing around with a hat switch, that is a degree of situational awareness that any pilot should have available to them at all times. I shouldn't be flying my ship like I just suffered a c-spine injury and am wearing a neck brace.

On the topic of WW2 fighters, my first WWII sim that I played was Janes WWII Fighters which was released in 1998. It had a padlock function which was extremely useful to maintain visual contact with a target. Elite actually has a flight model which is artificially restricted to resemble WWII dogfighting, where you are engaging in visual-range combat and are required to use roll and pitch with minimal yaw control. If a padlock function is both useful and immersive for a WW2 flight sim produced 20 years ago then there is no excuse for a similar function not to be implemented in Elite in 2018.

 

[Metal Angel]

Whether or not I have a radar display isn't the point here. I should be able to automatically look "up" without messing around with a hat switch, that is a degree of situational awareness that any pilot should have available to them at all times. I shouldn't be flying my ship like I just suffered a c-spine injury and am wearing a neck brace.

On the topic of WW2 fighters, my first WWII sim that I played was Janes WWII Fighters which was released in 1998. It had a padlock function which was extremely useful to maintain visual contact with a target. Elite actually has a flight model which is artificially restricted to resemble WWII dogfighting, where you are engaging in visual-range combat and are required to use roll and pitch with minimal yaw control. If a padlock function is both useful and immersive for a WW2 flight sim produced 30 years ago then there is no excuse for a similar function not to be implemented in Elite in 2018.

20 years ago. You nearly made me have a heart attack. Thought I lost 10 years.

 

[Devari]

20 years ago. You nearly made me have a heart attack. Thought I lost 10 years.

Sorry fixed that. Apparently I couldn't do basic math this morning.

 

[Kaocraft]

Almost any serious flight sim will have a "padlock" or "target track" toggle where you can toggle your view between straight ahead, free-look and target-lock modes. Elite, however, not being anything remotely reassembling a "serious" flight sim does not have any such feature and presumably never will. The devs probably haven't even played enough flight sims to know what this feature does, much less to actually implement it.

Keep in mind we're talking about a game made by devs who, when repeatedly asked for a third fire button, consider mashing buttons to switch weapons a "challenge" rather than poor UI design. One of the devs literally referred to the limitation of only having two fire buttons to a "Street Fighter combo" and felt that is was a way of "balancing" ships with larger numbers of weapon types. The suggestion here was that it would be too much of an "advantage" to give the players a third button as if mashing buttons in a clumsy attempt to change weapons was some sort of "feature" and not poor game design. Then, these same devs inexplicably decided to finally give more than 2 fire buttons but only for multicrew gunners, who often don't even require it, and have still left ship pilots at the helm limited to 2 fire buttons.

Really given the responses (or rather lack of response) that the community has gotten from the devs on these issues I would expect that this is as good as the gameplay is going to get. I would really not be expecting any improvements here because they are trivial to actually implement and if the devs actually wanted to implement them we would have seen them by now. I recommend a good HOTAS setup in order to deal with the poor UI and gameplay design flaws we simply have to accept if we are playing the game. In fact I'm even tempted to get voice attack and maybe even an IR headtracker at some point so I can circumvent some of these issues entirely.



Yet they like to make a big deal about their VR support. Interesting decision there. Honestly I think the problem is that many of the devs either don't play their own game enough or don't have enough of an actual flight sim background to be good at making a flight sim. Really there are so many basic features that were standard for flight sim games in the 1990's that are not implemented in Elite and I can't understand why they never implemented them or why they are still missing 3.5 years after the game launched.

All of this. And I doubt that any of the devs have ever performed a combo in Street Fighter, either.

 

[Devari]

I just want it for more immersion. Looking through the ship’s hull or at an awkward neck angle would be the opposite of that. I just assumed if they did it it would only work within the normal field of view. And also, if a feature is available to everyone, it’s an advantage to no one. VR on the other hand, is not available to everyone, so that is much more of an “unfair advantage” situation.

Most of the padlock functions I've seen implemented "max out" when you hit the limits of canopy's visual field. This is actually very useful because you are still "trying" to look towards the target and as soon as they come into view your head is already positioned to see them as soon as they reach your field of vision.

Interestingly enough, the F-35 currently has a "VR" system that allows the pilot to look directly "through" parts of the aircraft structure and maintain positional information to continue to track a target beyond normal visual limits. Most pilots report that it isn't anywhere near as good as directly looking through the canopy and isn't really a proper replacement for designing a canopy with good visibility, but we already have this technology available today so it's even more unusual that we couldn't have a basic system implemented in Elite.

 

[Speedcuffs]

I really would like this.

 

[MPL3D]

It is a must to lock your sight on target for combat, landing or navigation. Let's say it is kind of fair to leave it to the pilot skills and not to do this 'automatically'.

However lock on target would be greatly appreciated for the external camera view.

Locking the camera on target, and on our own ship, would allow to record decent cinematics, which is almost impossible at the moment.

 

[thistle]

It really staggers me that you don't seem to realize that players have been asking for these basic improvement since before the game launched and have been consistently ignored. Obviously "asking nicely" isn't going to get their attention so perhaps a focused critique of the current state of gameplay is more appropriate at this stage?

I mispoke. I'm sorry. This is what I should have said:

It really staggers me that the Devs aren't hanging on your every word, desperate to implement every suggestion that you make as quickly as possible. I mean, you always ask so nicely insult them ...