Help me Understand "Balance"

SR is probably more effective against NPCs than it is against CMDRs that have experience fighting stealthy opponents and was even before night vision.
I've seen zero difference fighting NPCs with SR on vs SR off. Heatsinks are equally useless for me. I'm not breaking weapons lock, I'm not "losing them in the asteroids", or any other tactic I've been able to successfully pull off against other CMDRs.
I'm sure not going to forget you were there if you happen to get 8km away, nor am I going to ignore mysterious unresolved contacts until they pass in front of my CMDR's window.
I think SR is more niche on PS4, because it really confounds a lot of players. One guy was looking for me, texting "Where are you hiding?" as I calmly sat behind him in SR. That was priceless :D

Unfortunately everyone has discovered that NV is a huge aid to using fixed weapons regardless of SR, and this makes me very sad. I miss the day when I could visually "blend in" with my surroundings and use that to my advantage.
 
I wax philosophical in this post - and definitely drift a bit far from the main topic and express at least one opinion that some may strongly disagree with.

Read on at your peril. Whether you agree or disagree all comments are welcome. Just remember - attack the statement not the person.

... Balance is when for every advantage, there is a disadvantage. Balance is when for every debuff, there is a buff of equal strength.

Balance is when for every + there is a -.

I believe that Crimson Kaim has articulated almost perfectly how the majority of gamers concerned with balance would define it. (y) My only caveat is that the statement implies that the sum of the + and - equals zero. If that isn't the case then what follows is all based on a false premise on my part. Kind'a would make the whole rest of this post irrelevant.

Ofcourse, you'll never achieve absolute balance

And why would one ever want to achieve "absolute balance"? That's what I cannot understand.

For every plus there is a minus? Hardly. Not the way the universe works and it shouldn't be the standard for games either. If I'm in the woods and run into a hungry bear without my trusty Win 94 lever gun or my .44 Mag S&W Model 29 on my hip I am not gonna stand and fight that bear. I'm gonna go low profile and slink away or run like hell. Because that confrontation is completely out of balance. If I'm flyin' around in ED with my Cobra Mk 3 and I run into an Anaconda I don't give a tinker's dam if the Cobra has every single A rated module engineered to G5 and all the best G5 weapons it can mount - I'm haulin' a.ss! With absolute balance as defined by Crimson that Cobra should have as a good a chance of defeating that Anaconda as the Anaconda would have of beating the Cobra; which is about as unrealistic as it gets. It'd take an absolute boob flyin' the 'conda to get beaten by the Cobra and in the 4 years I've been playing ED and reading this forum I can say that the ED community is on average significantly more literate, intelligent and clever than the internet norm. No boob.s here! (heh heh, he said boob.s).

Because contrary to what Thomas Jefferson said: we are not all created equal (he probably meant equal opportunity but most of the uneducated masses read it literally - <sigh>). Some of us are clearly smarter than others, some clearly stronger, faster. Some better looking, some cleverer. We're all different and thank the lord for that.

How so very boring would life be if we were all the same? Where would be the challenge - the challenge that has driven mankind to the heights it has currently achieved. Pretty dam boring if you ask me.(no one did - ask me - but I'm oratin' on it anyway). And if we were all the same we'd probably still be living in caves or hootin' and hollerin' while flinging our poo at each other.

Some may argue for example that strong and smart offset each other. Nah. Smart will overcome strong in the long term every time. Pretty will offset ugly everytime and there are studies that prove it. The examples go on. Plus and minus don't always add up to zero.

Then why should our games be balanced? Why? in life we aren't all equal and that is the variety, the diversity and ultimately the spice of life which makes it worth fighting thru to the end. Some will lose, some will win. We aren't all equal which is demonstrably true and equal opportunity though strived for will probably never be achieved simply because we are not equal. Why don't games reflect that. Who are the devs trying to convince?

AND IMO our games should be built to reflect the diversity and differences that human beings have and pretend to celebrate. Balance is boring, it's unnatural, it dumbs us all down and it has already - play wargames from the 80's, 90's and forward - and if one has played wargames for as long as I one will have seen that wargames have been dumbed down significantly since the masses starting buying computers in the early 90's big time - there's a few exceptions but not many IMO.

Balance is INSULTING!

BUT - I'm realistic enough to know that balance as defined by Crimson is probably never gonna go away as a game dev goal. Game developer's don't make games for free so they pander to the masses and I don't really blame 'em since I'm a pretty hard core capitalist.

Yes there are people misusing the word balance in a wrong way, especially common in the never ending PvE vs PvP debate but the actual ship and module balance is what really is wrong.

Emphasis mine.

That has a feel of truth, maybe, I don't know. Bothers me. Can't figure out why though. Something very right about it while at the same time something very wrong.
 
PVP'ers clubbing noobs....

That reminds me of Ultima Online back in the 90's! "PVP'ers clubbing noobs...." Happened all the time - happened to me for the 1st month or so when I first started playing - spawn campers.

A good example of out of balance. So what. I learned that the moment I spawned I had to haul a.ss as fast as I could away from the area. After awhile as I learned and leveled up the primitive ganker got killed as often as I did. It took the UO devs a while to fix that. I kind'a missed it, truth be known. One learns more from their defeats then their victories.
 
I wax philosophical in this post - and definitely drift a bit far from the main topic and express at least one opinion that some may strongly disagree with.

Read on at your peril. Whether you agree or disagree all comments are welcome. Just remember - attack the statement not the person.



I believe that Crimson Kaim has articulated almost perfectly how the majority of gamers concerned with balance would define it. (y) My only caveat is that the statement implies that the sum of the + and - equals zero. If that isn't the case then what follows is all based on a false premise on my part. Kind'a would make the whole rest of this post irrelevant.



And why would one ever want to achieve "absolute balance"? That's what I cannot understand.

For every plus there is a minus? Hardly. Not the way the universe works and it shouldn't be the standard for games either. If I'm in the woods and run into a hungry bear without my trusty Win 94 lever gun or my .44 Mag S&W Model 29 on my hip I am not gonna stand and fight that bear. I'm gonna go low profile and slink away or run like hell. Because that confrontation is completely out of balance. If I'm flyin' around in ED with my Cobra Mk 3 and I run into an Anaconda I don't give a tinker's dam if the Cobra has every single A rated module engineered to G5 and all the best G5 weapons it can mount - I'm haulin' a.ss! With absolute balance as defined by Crimson that Cobra should have as a good a chance of defeating that Anaconda as the Anaconda would have of beating the Cobra; which is about as unrealistic as it gets. It'd take an absolute boob flyin' the 'conda to get beaten by the Cobra and in the 4 years I've been playing ED and reading this forum I can say that the ED community is on average significantly more literate, intelligent and clever than the internet norm. No boob.s here! (heh heh, he said boob.s).

Because contrary to what Thomas Jefferson said: we are not all created equal (he probably meant equal opportunity but most of the uneducated masses read it literally - <sigh>). Some of us are clearly smarter than others, some clearly stronger, faster. Some better looking, some cleverer. We're all different and thank the lord for that.

How so very boring would life be if we were all the same? Where would be the challenge - the challenge that has driven mankind to the heights it has currently achieved. Pretty dam boring if you ask me.(no one did - ask me - but I'm oratin' on it anyway). And if we were all the same we'd probably still be living in caves or hootin' and hollerin' while flinging our poo at each other.

Some may argue for example that strong and smart offset each other. Nah. Smart will overcome strong in the long term every time. Pretty will offset ugly everytime and there are studies that prove it. The examples go on. Plus and minus don't always add up to zero.

Then why should our games be balanced? Why? in life we aren't all equal and that is the variety, the diversity and ultimately the spice of life which makes it worth fighting thru to the end. Some will lose, some will win. We aren't all equal which is demonstrably true and equal opportunity though strived for will probably never be achieved simply because we are not equal. Why don't games reflect that. Who are the devs trying to convince?

AND IMO our games should be built to reflect the diversity and differences that human beings have and pretend to celebrate. Balance is boring, it's unnatural, it dumbs us all down and it has already - play wargames from the 80's, 90's and forward - and if one has played wargames for as long as I one will have seen that wargames have been dumbed down significantly since the masses starting buying computers in the early 90's big time - there's a few exceptions but not many IMO.

Balance is INSULTING!

BUT - I'm realistic enough to know that balance as defined by Crimson is probably never gonna go away as a game dev goal. Game developer's don't make games for free so they pander to the masses and I don't really blame 'em since I'm a pretty hard core capitalist.

I would agree with what you are saying, but you are forgetting an important thing as a balance lever - relative costs. There are important factors to consider beyond the simple direct engagement.

Yes, a Cobra should be at a significant disadvantage in a direct engagement against a ship like an Anaconda, (particularly in a 1v1 winner-takes-all fight) however in the grand scheme of things it should be just as good. This is because of how the Cobra's advantages are related to things like being affordable, expendable and having access to smaller stations, while the Anaconda is (or should be, I know income inflation is a major issue right now) relatively expensive to both buy and maintain as well as being relatively inflexible with regards to where it can dock.

In terms of absolute per-ship value, is a Cobra good compared to an Anaconda? Not really, the Anaconda can do pretty much everything better unless it involves docking at outposts. But that's not where balance should be, as it fails to take into account the difference in costs; the real balance point is where both the Cobra and the Anaconda offer reasonable performance for their costs.

This is similar to where balance between A-rated modules and E-rated modules is (or should be, again we have had rampant credit inflation that renders E and C rated modules completely pointless), obviously A-rated modules are "better" in the sense that they give higher raw performance numbers, but they are also far more expensive to buy and maintain.

It's like saying that Zerglings vs Ultralisks is massively unbalanced in StarCraft because Ultralisks have 10x the health and generally can flatten a Zergling in couple of hits while taking a mere pittance of damage in return. This is massively incorrect because Ultralisks are both far more expensive as well as require far more investment in infrastructure and technology to build; in practice they both have their place in a smart player's toolbox despite their outward similarities.
 
the real balance point is where both the Cobra and the Anaconda offer reasonable performance for their costs.

This is precisely the sort of thing I was refering to when I mentioned redundant niches.

If money is effectively free, monetary cost (of acquisition or operation) ceases to be a useful balancing factor.
 
This is precisely the sort of thing I was refering to when I mentioned redundant niches.

If money is effectively free, monetary cost (of acquisition or operation) ceases to be a useful balancing factor.

Which is why I am so very much in favour of a wholesale rebalance/rework to both credit income and ongoing expenses as well as ship//module prices. Rampant income inflation has pretty much eroded most of the meaning of the smaller ships, as their primary advantage is now no longer a meaningful one.
 
How can a game like ED be balanced. To me that means that a sidewinder should be able to take on a 'vette and win all things being equal but player skill.

That's kind of like going to a car forum and saying "help me understand why a Porsche 911 GT2 is faster that a Scania R730 when they have similar horsepower".
The fact that you're asking the question really suggests you aren't equipped to appreciate the differences or understand the answers.

Balance, in the broadest possible terms, means there should be no "meta" for anything.
There should be different ways of achieving similar results and it should mean that every benefit has a proportional drawback too.
 
I noticed an interesting progression about a certain group's "stock" competition day. Each week more and more restrictions were added to the list:
1. Only small ships (no vultures)
2. No engineering
3. No EPT
4. No powerplay mods (looking at you packhounds)
5. No seekers
6. No HRP
7. No Synth ammo
8. ?

I'm sure there's something i forgot to add to the list.
 
I personally the problem with the (non-existant) balance in ED is, that with the price inflation and engineering, there is no real reason not to use a big ship - except if you just like to fly it for the feeling or look.

In a well balanced, diverse space game there would be a certain reason to fly a big ship = it would be a tank; slow, a big target, but heavily shielded and heavy firepower.

And there would be a reason to fly a small ship = it's like a jet; super fast and hard to hit, but very weak and only lightly armed.

In ED however, thanks to the great idea (/s) of engineering, even the biggest ship can be fast and easy to turn, while at the same time being heavily shielded AND having superior firepower.
Oh AND have fighters..

So why would anyone use a small ship? The way I see it, there is no use (anymore?) for small ships, not even for exploration. Combat being way too easy (meaning too easy to track and hit someone) doesn't help either.
 
I noticed an interesting progression about a certain group's "stock" competition day. Each week more and more restrictions were added to the list:
1. Only small ships (no vultures)
2. No engineering
3. No EPT
4. No powerplay mods (looking at you packhounds)
5. No seekers
6. No HRP
7. No Synth ammo
8. ?

I'm sure there's something i forgot to add to the list.

At that point they might as well just play CQC...
 
Honor system works well enough among groups of similarly minded individuals participating in friendly bouts.

It's not something you could broadly enforce.
This is how they handle it. However, the one time I joined them I was amused to see well known gankers and white knights participating in the same event.
 
Balance...

I see this all the time in the ED forums and elsewhere; usually because someone is complaining about it being out of whack in ED. I really don't understand that. The only truly balanced game Of the hundreds and hundreds I've played in the 58 years I've been playing games (I'm 67) is CHESS (and even that's not perfectly balanced because the player that moves 1st - white - definitely has the advantage, all things being equal).

How can a game like ED be balanced. To me that means that a sidewinder should be able to take on a 'vette and win all things being equal but player skill.

Then I think. No way - that can't be what those concerned with balance means. Can't be.

Which leads me to the conclusion that when I think balance in ED it has to be something very different from what the typical player all ate up with it thinks it means.

So...

Define balance and what it means in Elite Dangerous.

ASIDE and FWIW: in my opinion true balance would make any game that achieved it boring as h.ell (which is a big reason that I stopped playing chess years ago; though I've recently taken it up again as it is a good way to teach my youngest how to think into the future, to look before he leaps and evaluate all potential consequences of his decision making process - still bores me to tears though)

I define "balance" as everyone having access to the same assets and possible strategies. ED is balanced.
 
Well technically, Horizons owners have a huge advantage over non-Horizon owners (and I encounter a surprising number of non-Horizon owners in the game)....

Oh agreed, that wasn't even mentioned how Horizons completely breaks the balance between base game and Horizons owners. I would call that pay-to-win, but appearently that can't be true for anything coming from FDev.
 
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