Hi FD, Any plans to check the game breaking Submit and Highwake issue? ( Its basically an exploit )

[Mengy]

I would be happy for a single response by someone from FD to why HW isn't effect by masslock, when it definitely is by a space station.
Are there two types of mass in space? Na, its just not thinking through a mechanic or how it can be abused.

I actually think the converse is true, high wakes are allowed in combat BECAUSE they have thought it through and determined that it is a good mechanic to have in game. I know you don't like it because you want to trap and kill peaceful players, but that's just your preference influencing your opinion. From a game design point of reference it is good to give all pilots at least some chance of escaping absolute death, no matter what they are flying. It gives players hope and keeps them playing in open play rather than simply hiding in solo or private groups. Which still happens despite high waking being a thing, imagine how bad it would be if they took high waking away?

 

[Majinvash]

I actually think the converse is true, high wakes are allowed in combat BECAUSE they have thought it through and determined that it is a good mechanic to have in game. I know you don't like it because you want to trap and kill peaceful players, but that's just your preference influencing your opinion. From a game design point of reference it is good to give all pilots at least some chance of escaping absolute death, no matter what they are flying. It gives players hope and keeps them playing in open play rather than simply hiding in solo or private groups. Which still happens despite high waking being a thing, imagine how bad it would be if they took high waking away?

Well one of us is right and until FD says something we can only look at the facts and take our feelies out of it.

Mass lock is in the game and effects players trying to LW
Mass lock from belt rings and space stations inhibits completely HW and LW.
Yet for some reason currently it doesn't even slow down HW, even when they would be mass locked trying to LW.

You think its there so that every player in every situation has the chance to escape. No matter what! (Unless you trap them in a belt ring)
Pirating and Bounty hunting are touted as valid career paths in the launch material. This feature completely removes this an an option.

Which one is more likely? FD?

To prove this, I am going to put my money where my mouth is and at some point in the next few weeks on twitch pay anyone who can kill me. REAL Cash Money!

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Special Snowflake]

Oh, hmm, mass locking people to stations as a form of consequence free griefing... yes, I can see that would be an issue, but couldn't FD just add a handwave field 7-10km from the station where high wake mass lock doesn't apply because reasons and apply high wake mass lock everywhere else?

BTW, it's spelled "affect", "effect" is a different verb. That's been bugging me through the entire thread.

 

[Majinvash]

Oh, hmm, mass locking people to stations as a form of consequence free griefing... yes, I can see that would be an issue, but couldn't FD just add a handwave field 7-10km from the station where high wake mass lock doesn't apply because reasons and apply high wake mass lock everywhere else?

BTW, it's spelled "affect", "effect" is a different verb. That's been bugging me through the entire thread.

Thanks, I actually do know that but am super lazy with correct grammar. (I was late to the "your / you're" party too )

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Esvandiary]

But I asked you a simple question.

"So what is Mass lock, in the game for?"

As it is now, it's to give people an escape route which forces them to abandon (temporarily) the trip to their intended destination.
(Also, as mentioned, to annoy anyone leaving a busy station trying to get to supercruise. )

I would be happy for a single response by someone from FD to why HW isn't effect by masslock, when it definitely is by a space station.
Are there two types of mass in space? Na, its just not thinking through a mechanic or how it can be abused.

Actually, there are two effects: mass lock (stations/planets, prevents you from jumping at all) and mass-related FSD inhibition (which is what you've been referring to).
Not suggesting that's an argument for things to stay the way they are - just pointing out that in the game they are described differently.

 

[Majinvash]

As it is now, it's to give people an escape route which forces them to abandon (temporarily) the trip to their intended destination.
(Also, as mentioned, to annoy anyone leaving a busy station trying to get to supercruise. )


Actually, there are two effects: mass lock (stations/planets, prevents you from jumping at all) and mass-related FSD inhibition (which is what you've been referring to).
Not suggesting that's an argument for things to stay the way they are - just pointing out that in the game they are described differently.

Two effects but mass is mass and it works logically ( giving we are talking about space ships and all )

A station or belt rings mass completely disrupts an FSD drive to the point it stops everything.
Smaller mass disrupts FSD to low wake but not to high. Why?
There is the problem. It doesn't make in game sense.
If HW wasn't affected by mass, then a station or belt ring shouldn't effect it either.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Lateralus]

I got repeatedly interdicted by a wing of 4 bounty hunters in Eravate tonight, flying Pythons, FDLs and Cobras... I should've died really as I was on my tod in a Vulture, but managed to HW out every time with moderate to heavy hull damage (mainly because I stopped to fight) - so you see ladies and gents, it is not just the bane of pirates and murderers, but also hurts bounty hunting.

Some have mentioned wake-scanners as the solution.... but they're not, because if you catch up to the high-waker, they can escape every time using the same tactic.

Perhaps there should be some kind of high-wake inhibitor utility available for pirates and bounty hunters that stops a target HW'ing for a certain amount of time (the delay would be dependant on class of the device fitted). The drawbacks could be that it is expensive, uses lots of power and requires ammo.

Thoughts?

 

[Four Muffins]

Two effects but mass is mass and it works logically ( giving we are talking about space ships and all )

A station or belt rings mass completely disrupts an FSD drive to the point it stops everything.
Smaller mass disrupts FSD to low wake but not to high. Why?
There is the problem. It doesn't make in game sense.
If HW wasn't affected by mass, then a station or belt ring shouldn't effect it either.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Makes perfect in-game sense. They don't work via the same methods. Low shift uses warped space and thrusters, and so is disrupted by nearby mass, and disabled by nearby mass in high concentrations compared to surrounding space. With gravity field spread over a wide area, like with rings, is the same as activating low shift in any other gravity field, such as the system's star, and is slowed consistently. High shift goes through witch space, and has nothing to do with warping space-time in front of the ship.

 

[Vasious]

I wonder if incentivising actually fighting the interdiction rather than submitting.

They was I see it submission should be for when it is a security force or Naval force vessel making a routine stop and your clean so you submit, be scanned and confirmed as clean so they don't bother you for the rest of your stay in the system
OR You submit as you are going to fight

Where as if you don't want to submit, because you don't want to be pirated or stopped by the authorities, then you fight the interdiction.

Cf the Persistent NPCs that keep following you if you submit and then immediately leave, but if you fight the interdiction, won or lose they don't follow you after the scene is over.

Now I know we are talking about Players vs Players but I think the NPC interaction reflect the intent.

Of course I don't have a solution and my own bias is in play as this is how I play.
If I am interdicted by a player and I am not looking for a fight, I will resist the interdiction, if I win, I carry on, if I lose then I concede to the pirates demands.

Flipping the cool down timers for submit or resist wont work as when you submit for police when clean, it just is extra time to wait, and we know how much people hate that.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I got repeatedly interdicted by a wing of 4 bounty hunters in Eravate tonight, flying Pythons, FDLs and Cobras... I should've died really as I was on my tod in a Vulture, but managed to HW out every time with moderate to heavy hull damage (mainly because I stopped to fight) - so you see ladies and gents, it is not just the bane of pirates and murderers, but also hurts bounty hunting.

Some have mentioned wake-scanners as the solution.... but they're not, because if you catch up to the high-waker, they can escape every time using the same tactic.

Perhaps there should be some kind of high-wake inhibitor utility available for pirates and bounty hunters that stops a target HW'ing for a certain amount of time (the delay would be dependant on class of the device fitted). The drawbacks could be that it is expensive, uses lots of power and requires ammo.

Thoughts?

Makes perfect in-game sense. They don't work via the same methods. Low shift uses warped space and thrusters, and so is disrupted by nearby mass, and disabled by nearby mass in high concentrations compared to surrounding space. With gravity field spread over a wide area, like with rings, is the same as activating low shift in any other gravity field, such as the system's star, and is slowed consistently. High shift goes through witch space, and has nothing to do with warping space-time in front of the ship.

Combining there two, a witch space disruptor (could even be Thargoid tech from the old war)
Prevents high wakes, but not low wakes, as it is only stopping the jump to Witch space, and it effects all ships in the area, friend or foe, thus cutting off that means of retreat for both sides.

 

[Four Muffins]

It leaves us with the same problem. This type of gameplay can only be fun for one side, some of the time. If the pirate gets them, they have fun, but the victim doesn't because it's the 56496818971th time it's happened today. If the victim has an escape route, then the pirate has no fun. Fairness and all the rest is pretty irrelevant if no one is enjoying themselves.

P.S I still vote for pirates being able to shoot my ship with a tracking device, so they can stalk me via galaxy map. Do you know awesome it would be to find out a pirate predicted my route and was waiting for me at the entrance to my hidey-hole?

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Combining there two, a witch space disruptor (could even be Thargoid tech from the old war)
Prevents high wakes, but not low wakes, as it is only stopping the jump to Witch space, and it effects all ships in the area, friend or foe, thus cutting off that means of retreat for both sides.

Keeps you in combat and prevents you from entering Witchspace?

Must be a Warlock!

 

[GluttonyFang]

Majin does have a point.

 

[Lateralus]

It leaves us with the same problem. This type of gameplay can only be fun for one side, some of the time. If the pirate gets them, they have fun, but the victim doesn't because it's the 56496818971th time it's happened today. If the victim has an escape route, then the pirate has no fun. Fairness and all the rest is pretty irrelevant if no one is enjoying themselves.

Very noble, but you could use that argument against modules/weapons that are already in the game such as interdictors or hatch-breakers... Also it's currently not very fun trying to pirate or claim a bounty on another player when the target is able to escape every time by high-waking out.

P.S I still vote for pirates being able to shoot my ship with a tracking device, so they can stalk me via galaxy map. Do you know awesome it would be to find out a pirate predicted my route and was waiting for me at the entrance to my hidey-hole?

Agree with this completely, but without the HW issue being sorted this would be a token gesture. Tracker limpets should also have an expiration time which varies depending on it's class.

Another suggestion; frameshift cool-down time of victim could vary depending on the class of interdictor used by the aggressor on them (would still vary if the target submits). This would give a better reason to buy an expensive interdictor other than simply boosting its range in super-cruise.

 

[6xes]

perhaps a tweak to the Frame Wake Scanner, to allow quick tethering to a ship once high waking is engaged, keeping highwakers from escaping completely,also FSD synthesis to increase FSD jump range would be then the most effective means of escape. This would add the element of Fuel consumption into the mix when factoring a escape plan???

thus giving a reason to search out synthesizable materials, the game of cat and mouse becomes whether the synthesized FSD is prepared or not, and running a ships FSD range out, as well as the interdiction if one wants to risk the long FSD cooldown

The Highwake jumping gives the chance of shields to be replenished slightly and a re-consideration of another attempt at interdiction success, giving the necessary break a Cmdr requires to escape a pirate, ultimately leaving more options for evasion.

 

[Zenith]

Agree with Majin. Been saying it's borderline exploit for ages. That said open piracy is as good as dead anyway.

And why is that? The players like me got fed up with being someone else's kicking bag and decided to take our toys with us to private groups and solo.
I don't blame "proper" pirates who want to RP. I blame the psychos who open up without warning or hesitation simply to get another kill.

This conversation has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum for the last year. High waking isn't an exploit as it has been explicitly mentioned by FDev staff that there must always be a way to escape a situation. OP just wants it so that their chosen kicking bag/victim/prey can't escape for whatever reason. If FDev listened and changed the high wake mechanism, all you do is drive even more folks into private groups and solo. It's a self-defeating proposition.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

And why is that? The players like me got fed up with being someone else's kicking bag and decided to take our toys with us to private groups and solo.
I don't blame "proper" pirates who want to RP. I blame the psychos who open up without warning or hesitation simply to get another kill.

This conversation has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum for the last year. High waking isn't an exploit as it has been explicitly mentioned by FDev staff that there must always be a way to escape a situation. OP just wants it so that their chosen kicking bag/victim/prey can't escape for whatever reason. If FDev listened and changed the high wake mechanism, all you do is drive even more folks into private groups and solo. It's a self-defeating proposition.

Recruiting for Mobius must be his purpose.

It is the only thing his rants and behavior are actually accomplishing.

Working quite well too, they are now saying 15,500 pilots, not 15,000. I remember when it was "over 1000"

 

[vindicator jones]

I would say this. If you take away the ability for players/traders to HW out of a situation, then we should take away the ability for pirates to clear their wanted status whenever they die, and when pirates kill an enemy commander, there are far greater consequences.

There is a reason why commanders HW, and just removing that ability without addressing the reason why commanders HW is not going to solve anything. It will just drive more players into solo or mobius.

The same thing can be said about piracy... There are reasons why pirates open fire immediately instead of making demands first, and that's because traders will HW out before the pirate can even issue demands.

So you have a circular problem here, one perpetuating the other.

The solution would be to make Killing commanders a last resort for pirates, as the consequences for killing an in game commander are much more severe and will never magically disappear with destruction of their ship. The pirate will have to "lay low" for a period of time to reduce their heat, meaning that they will have to avoid controlled systems, otherwise local security will hunt them down. This means it is far more profitable for pirates to leave their prey alive instead of just arbitrarily killing them.

Because of this, and the fact traders can no longer HW out, they would be more inclined to submit to demands made by pirates, and dump their cargo to survive.

You need to change both systems in order to make it more fair for everyone.

 

[Lateralus]

The ability to HW out of danger quickly should depend on the outfitting of both the interdicting ship and the victims ship - let's say the class/rating of the aggressors interdictor vs the class/rating of the victims frameshift drive.

For example; if a pirate with a 2C interdictor interdicted a trader with a 4A frameshift drive, the cool-down for the trader should be fast, as they have a superior FSD to the pirates interdictor. However if a pirate interdicted the same ship with a 5A interdictor, the cool-down for the trader should be significantly longer. And most importantly; Submitting to an interdiction would still speed up the cool-down time, however the cool-down time for a submission would now be variable depending on this interdictor-frameshift drive balance.

This would introduce and element of risk to submitting, and stop it being an all-purpose escape ploy. It would also make pricey interdictors worth buying, as currently tether range is the only reason to buy one, which makes them pretty unappealing.

 

[Mephane]

The solution would be to make Killing commanders a last resort for pirates, as the consequences for killing an in game commander are much more severe and will never magically disappear with destruction of their ship. The pirate will have to "lay low" for a period of time to reduce their heat, meaning that they will have to avoid controlled systems, otherwise local security will hunt them down. This means it is far more profitable for pirates to leave their prey alive instead of just arbitrarily killing them.

Let's start with introducing the major-faction-wide bounties again (wanted in one Fed system = wanted in all of them), much higher bounties for killing players, reputation loss with local authority for killing clean players, and finally, an automatic recompensation system: if you kill a clean player, their rebuy cost is added to your bounty, and they don't pay rebuy cost at all; the insurance company will get the money back from you when your bounty is claimed.

Once we have that, we need a system of escalating responses for being wanted, a bit like GTA, where more and stronger security forces and bounty hunter NPC are out to get you. If done well, this could even be fun way to play the criminal lifestyle without even attacking other players, think how fun it is to escape and fight the police in any GTA game.

The ability to HW out of danger quickly should depend on the outfitting of both the interdicting ship and the victims ship - let's say the class/rating of the aggressors interdictor vs the class/rating of the victims frameshift drive.

For example; if a pirate with a 2C interdictor interdicted a trader with a 4A frameshift drive, the cool-down for the trader should be fast, as they have a superior FSD to the pirates interdictor. However if a pirate interdicted the same ship with a 5A interdictor, the cool-down for the trader should be significantly longer. And most importantly; Submitting to an interdiction would still speed up the cool-down time, however the cool-down time for a submission would now be variable depending on this interdictor-frameshift drive balance.

This would introduce and element of risk to submitting, and stop it being an all-purpose escape ploy. It would also make pricey interdictors worth buying, as currently tether range is the only reason to buy one, which makes them pretty unappealing.

Nice idea on paper. In practice, it'll just mean pirates use the best interdictor available (which, btw is, 4A, there are no bigger ones).

 

[Sendraks]

Let's start with introducing the major-faction-wide bounties again (wanted in one Fed system = wanted in all of them), much higher bounties for killing players, reputation loss with local authority for killing clean players, and finally, an automatic recompensation system: if you kill a clean player, their rebuy cost is added to your bounty, and they don't pay rebuy cost at all; the insurance company will get the money back from you when your bounty is claimed.

Once we have that, we need a system of escalating responses for being wanted, a bit like GTA, where more and stronger security forces and bounty hunter NPC are out to get you. If done well, this could even be fun way to play the criminal lifestyle without even attacking other players, think how fun it is to escape and fight the police in any GTA game.

Nice idea. I'd add that if a player has such a bounty on their head, they cannot log into play on private or solo modes. No hiding and playing offline to avoid people hunting you.