HOTAS/HOSAS-setup: Thinking of switching from traditional throttle to VKB Omni Throttle (or possibly dual stick)

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Hey there.

I need some help making a decision, and also have a question or two about using the VKB Gladiator NXT Evo Omni Throttle (that's a mouthful).

I have been thinking for a while to switch out my traditional throttle to either a VKB Onmi Throttle or possibly just a left hand Gladiator NXT EVO instead of the throttle. I am unsure if I will get a satisfactory axis and button mapping though (old dogs, new tricks and all that), and while I consider the VKB EVO line a steal, it's still quite a bit of money to "just try it" in case I don't like it. So I am being careful and hesitant to make a decision.

I'm sure some of you use the Omni Throttle and can tell me the (your) best way to set it up, so I can maybe judge better if I might like it or not. I might add that pedals are out of the consideration at the moment; I don't want to use any at this time.

My current setup consists of a VKB Gladiator NXT EVO for the right hand and a Logitech X52 Pro throttle for the left hand. I have bound pitch, roll and yaw to Y, X and twist on the right stick. On the throttle I use the throttle for.... er, throttle, the 4-way on the back of it for lateral and vertical thrusters and the thumb wheel on the throttle for forward/backward thrusters in real space. This especially might seem a little odd, but it gives me multiple options. In SC, I can just set and forget the throttle via its big lever. My throttle is set to forward only right now, as I only use it in SC. In real space, I pull the throttle lever all the way back, and the thumb wheel lets me vary my speed in combat much more efficient with way less movement. The side effect of binding the wheel to thrust instead of throttle also means that I can set the throttle to, say, 50% via a button and then increase or decrease speed as needed with my left thumb. I fly FA on almost all the time, I might add. Also, other flight sims don't play into this, as ED is the only flight sim I play.


My thoughts so far:

First of all, how, if at all, can I replicate my setup with a second stick or the OT? Of course I cannot, because the VKB grip doesn't have a thumb wheel. But maybe I can get close. I have thought about it, and the most reasonable setup with the OTA probably is removing the spring for the Y axis to retain the set-and-forget use of a traditional throttle, and use the X-axis and twist for lateral and vertical thrusters.

I would lose the comfortable thumb speed control in combat, but compared to the big, clunky throttle lever with a really long throw the omni throttle is probably easier and more dynamic to move, so this might not be an issue; I have removed the dampening screws completely from my right hand stick and use the medium springs (I think) and I know the stick can be moved very effortless. My worry is that the EVO (like my throttle) doesn't have a center detent for orientation.

The second mapping I could imagine would be using the X and Y (with springs and center return) for lateral thrust and throttle and twist for vertical (or use the analog stick for vertical). Theoretically I could live without a set-and-forget throttle for SC and just use the 0/25/50/75/100 mappings. I already use the throttle pretty much either fully back or fully out, and very rarely in-between. I guess this would be the better setup for HOSAS instead of the hybrid Omni Throttle?

Who here is using the VKB OTA and can tell me about their experience and setup? Who is using dual sticks without pedals, how well does that work?

I'm sure I'll think of more questions later, thanks for now!

 

[Ashnak]

Who is using dual sticks without pedals, how well does that work?

Very well (dual Virpils), but I don't do PvP.
Sticks are Virpil Constellation Alpha. Right stick has rotational controls where you would expect them and an incremental throttle control on the thumbwheel. Left stick is (by now) mounted on a Z-extension, so I got continous throttle on the Y-Axis, lateral thrusters on X and up/down on rotation. Before the Z-extension, I had throttle on rotation and up/down on Y.
I play in VR, so I don't need the thumbsticks for view. Right thumbstick is for camera controls (maps, FSS), left one is (according to my cheat sheet) unused .
Can't link you to my cheat sheet - I set up the sticks differently than what edrefcard expects and haven't gotten around to changing that.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

thanks! I forgot to mention that: I also play VR, so same concerning the free look. I am guessing the Z-Extension is Virpil's equivalent to the Omni Throttle adapter?

I am not so concerned about all the other mappings, that is just a matter of finding your own sense in it and remembering it . I'm more concerned about the flight basics, i.e. the axes and thrusters, so don't worry about the cheat sheet .

 

[Ashnak]

I am guessing the Z-Extension is Virpil's equivalent to the Omni Throttle adapter?

exactly - minor diference is that the Virpil one is adjustable. Can't see the point since I'm running it as low as practically possible.

 

[Ashnak]

One more remark: I had to swap out the weak springs for the default ones when plugging in the adapter - otherwise, the setup would not stay centered.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

do you use springs on both axes or just the lateral one?

 

[Ashnak]

All axes. There is no friction on the throttle axis, so without the springs the throttle would move wherever gravity dictates if I let go. Like this, I can fly with my right hand only in SC or simple situations (incremental throttle on the thumbwheel) and take over with the left whenever I need to. Throttle works after "last input wins", i.e. if I have the thumbwheel set to 75%, moving the left throttle a bit and letting it return to zero zeroes the throttle. Useful for autodock or submitting to an interdiction: just nudge the left stick a bit, and throttle goes to zero.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Great. Thanks for your input!

 

[Fnord Velkor]

do you use springs on both axes or just the lateral one?

I got a VKB EVO omnithrottle recently. I have locked-out the x-axis with the supplied plate and removed the spring from the y-axis, adjusting the dry clutch to give a smooth travel, not too stiff but not slack. I have not fully migrated* from my CHPro Throttle as I think it will take time to get used to the new control positions but my intention is to use the mini-stick for lateral and vertical thrusters (mimicking the CHPro Throttle mini-stick) - the hats are an easy read-across and I am using the triggers to take the place of the boost and FSD buttons and using the pinky switch as a press-to-hold throttle reverse. I am not convinced about using twist for vertical thruster but when I make the final move I will make up my mind on that. The CHPro is such a well-designed handle, shame about the pot and the mini-stick, I have used it for years and only recently decided to move but the VKB is a magnitude more precise.

* i.e. I use a separate binds and use it to try to get used to it but still use the CHPro binds for most of the time. (I should say I am using VKB Gladiator EVO for the right-hand stick.)

 

[Treya]

I've been using twin stick for a couple of years, first T16K then VKB NXT. Currently back to the Toymaster until I can find the time for the Omni upgrade but initial tests were very promising. Twin stick has served me well (everything PVE and a little bit of PVP here and there), using X/Y for the laterals and Z for forward/backward. One problem however was/is using the mini throttle as such. Standard maneuvers in SC are fine but in normal space, especially on fast ships, it can get tricky to set the desired speed (though the VKB is good enough when used in forward only mode).
The other two problems (and my motivation to use the Omni) is the frequent need to switch between stick and mini throttle as well as the lack of a way to set a permanent reverse speed. Sadly the Omni is missing a center detent so until a better solution presents itself I'll have to use a bigger dead zone and (if I can get it to work) light up the LED when the throttle is at zero.
One thing to keep in mind is that the Omni is a conversion from the normal stick, so you could theoretically get just the EVO (or something cheap like a 2nd hand T16K) first and see if you're happy with a HOSAS.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Thanks for the input.

I still have the X-52 stick of course, but it isn't as ergonomic as the EVO, so I fear trying it out with that or some other "toy" will taint my impression negatively.

I have thought about it a bit more. I forgot that the EVO base has the mini throttle, so that would take care of a SC set-and-forget throttle. In light of that I think the way to go for me would probably be X-Y for lateral and thrust with the weakest possible springs for center return and twist with the omni for vertical. Either that or remove the springs and lock X to turn it into a "real" throttle and use the analog stick for laterals and vertical, and have a better throttle-like device with more and better placed buttons and POVs. I guess the argument here is that the options are kind of limitless with the OT...

Also, it is not a question of money for the OTA. The complete Omni Throttle set is only a few Euros more expensive than the single Stick, so you get the OTA basically for less than 10 bucks compared to if you buy it seperate. So... I think I'm going for it. I want it. Been thinking about it for a few months now. It is in stock, so maybe it will arrive before the Christmas break.... Need to ponder about it a few more hours I guess.

 

[Willyum-71]

I have EVO Omni for left hand and regular (upright) EVO for right hand, but I also added the SEM control and attached it to the Omni throttle (right side only, will not connect to left side without the Omni elbow banging into the SEM controls). I posted pics here when I bought mine about 4 months ago I will link to show the SEM, but those pics not showing the SEM fully connected.

I used to play 100% VR, but in the last month and a half my vision has been acting up so I play both VR and flat screen equally now.

I wanted the SEM to use as a photo suite and also wanted that 4 position control to setup flight modes (off, curve adjusted plus shift, photo suite and combat mode)

I have all axis functioning on both hands, I put both medium springs for right hand and I used 1 light, 1 heavy for Omni… throttle is light (10 lb) and left right thrust is 30 lb. With the Omni being at 45 degrees I wanted the 30 lb to stop me from drifting to the left from the weight of my hand resting. But I also have my leds setup to show me if calibration is ever ‘off’. Dead center is leds off, right hand and throttle turn green if I move 2 degrees out of center and all thrusters flash red if I’m drifting (slow flash for left right and fast bright for verticals).

I setup my right hand to be able to do all flight mechanics for casual flying and targeting (set to the second way you described) my right thumb hat switch is set to 25% throttle at 3 o’clock, 50% at 6, 75% at 9, 100% at 12 and zero throttle when pushed down (pushed in). So I can watch tv and manage all basic functions with right hand only… I set up all combat and alternate functions on left hand since any combat situation requires both hands anyway. I did a whole lot of other tricky stuff using macros and keyboard functionality by assigning the Omni to function as both controller and keyboard simultaneously (from the native vibe controller setup… and set the right stick to function as both controller and mouse plus shifted features on pinky button.

I absolutely love my VKB setup and the precision is so rock solid, I rarely even install supercruise on new builds.

At work gotta run, anything you need to know how to set up let me know. I came from the X52 and would never go back…. Ever!

 

[Willyum-71]

Oh and forgot the curves adjustment… you can setup the thruster to have non linear functionality on the fly… that’s what I use the SEM control for. I have a couple 700 800m/s ships that are to twitchy to do precision work with, so I flip the control and that make the omni have a much slower reaction in the central part of the band (larger hand movement can have very fine movement)

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

awesome info, thanks. the speedy ships' thrusters can be hard to control, I agree. I'm doing that with a digital control now, I hope this gets better with an analog axis. I play VR only, so the LEDs will not help me. I guess I would have to find the right balance of spring and clutch tension.

Right now I have the right hand POVs cluttered with shift functions, I will be looking forward to distribute them to the four POVs on the OT.

Yes, I have decided. I am going to order one

 

[Ski'Thor]

I'm using the X-56 HOTAS and it was okay so far, but it's my 2nd set in 6 years and the current one is already pretty inaccurate, clumpsy and from time to time you want new stuff
So I decided to go with the Virpil HOSAS, (2x Alpha Prime, warbrd and CM3 with z Extension) they are in transit right now.

I decided to go with the HOSAS, where the left stick is with the z Extention, because the CM3 Base can be tightend to the max on both axis, so you can use the left stick exactly like a real Throttle but the freedom to have 2 Axis more (left/right and twist) . You push it foward, it stays there. Pull it backwards, it stays there.

 

[Willyum-71]

Ok, home from work wanted to post the pic and throw some negatives and positives
You have 1 EVO so you know, even though the stick is a fantastic price for what you get... depending on where you live the shipping can get crazy. I was going to order an additional 'connector' so the connector was about 4 or 6 dollars but the shipping was going to be something like 29 dollars from FedEx China through customs.... So know what you want and add any extra bits now.

So just wanted to let you know the SEM is fantastic and very well integrated. it connects internally and comes with One connector bridge I wanted to order a second bridge after I realized how solid they connect with absolutely no flex. SEM may not be for you but for $70 it was right up my alley

now with pics, as I mentioned I mostly use the SEM in the free camera mode with the blur and zoom and quick access to the different camera positions, that red button is my shutter-button... this pic is not the best angle to show it but the 2 controls on the right are axis... but they both come with interchangeable detents... 2 position, 3 position and the top one is larger so also has a 4 position detent available also... I currently have no detents installed for smooth action throughout.

That mode switch is programmed (by me, through the VKB programmer to alter the functionality of the whole stick (once the SEM is connected to the EVO, they behave as one unit).. So my photo suite becomes my squad communication device... the red button is now my 'push to talk and the 3 the photo position button becomes my 'focus on team member 1, 2, 3 target' (to be clear, I haven't had an opportunity to test the push to talk cause my only 1 ED friend only types... I don't know, maybe he has a funny voice, or just super shy) And all the settings are stored on the EVO's processor and no longer require the Programmer unless you claibrate or re-program the stick.

OK, I'm typing way too much, but I think you guys are starting to know that already. I read the entire manual and every single button/control can be programmed like 8-10 different ways plus stacked functionality and like I said hard-ware encoded macros, plus mouse and keyboard.

ED still has a 32 control limit per device, and although the SEM and EVO connect and become one... The VKB programmer will allow you to 'split' any of their joysticks from 1 to 4 different devices. and any of the buttons can be assigned to any of the 'now' 4-in-1 controllers.... meaning your 1 single EVO can now transmit ED's limit 32 assignments (per controller) in 4 different ways giving you access to 128 different hardware controls to ED. And with ED having a limit of 8 total controllers connected to ED at once, with 2 EVO's you actually have access to 256 hardware controls in just 2 hands.

This pic shows my right stick connected as both a joystick and a mouse with an additional set of controls triggered by the pinky button (the (2) at the end for emulating a second controller). and my right stick is only connected as a single unit (highlighted), but shows that it is also functions as a digital keyboard (including milisecond delay to get macros to function properly (although the macro program section also has additional timing control))....

Here you see 2 examples of custom curves... (I put both examples in custom curves lane 1, but as you can see you can have 8 different custom curves that can be activated on the fly AND individually assigned to any independent axis) the first is a basic s-curve with handles... The second addresses what you mentioned about not having the detent. In the second curve from 60% to 90% throttle they are all registering 96 which would be 75% in-game throttle, still giving you access to 100% and the lower range.... this is an extreme example but shows you can set a large portion of the throttle to 75% if you want to.... (this isn't because of SEM, this is what you already have with your current EVO

This is the SEM connected to the EVO with internal wiring plus they can be daisy chained for i think a max of 8 different types of units... might be 6... I wanted the second connector to have it all be one unit (but both EVO would have separate usb connections). I really miss my t.flight HOTAS being able to just drop it on my lap and sit in my comfy chair. Second pic show my cockpit that I never use so my X52 is still mounted... but also shows a potential mounting problem with the bar of the steering wheel in the way of where the SEM would be... I would have to modify.

Sorry I know I type a lot. I Really like the VKB and it has been absolutely rock solid with zero drift from day one with 4-6 hours a day (every day) use for about 4 months now.

 

[Fnord Velkor]

... I read the entire manual ...

I really must do that ...

 

[Willyum-71]

I really must do that ...

They are total controller geeks... the rabbit hole goes deep with them. What the heck is Boolean control, lol. and they have aircraft control for trimming the Yoke manually and automated using the wheel in the bottom? even after reading the full manual you realize they are just giving you the tip of the iceberg of control. The magic happens when it 'clicks' in your head and you start 'layering'. I gave the quick way I just hit a button to switch the curves.... but in this video they break down multiple ways of assigning curves including the craziest thing I ever heard of.... Timed -gradual curves..... so it slowly changes the curve over time (however long you choose) so it's not sudden.... look at this vid and see how crazy they get with the level of detail you can get.... All of their vids start with the 'easy way' then start going into 'God-Mode'. Only thing I don't like is how they do their macros... they do it the long way instead of just recording your button presses. By the way this vid doesn't show the colum for assigning 'any' of the curves to 'any' of the axis, so this vid must be before they added that.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

For what it is worth... I also read the entire manual when I got my first EVO. Geeks be geeking, I guess.

I'm excited. I ordered the Omni Throttle earlier this week and got notified today that it has arrived in my country and will be delivered on monday. Yay, new toys .

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

The Omni Throttle arrived today, and after spending what felt like two hours of key binding I did my first play session. It did not go well, all my landings were terrible .

I moved all the bindings that were shifted combinations on the right stick over to the left stick. After a few adjustments I think I got everything set up somewhat logically. For actually moving the ship, I was torn at first between twist for vertical and Y for thrust and vice versa. For now I have settled with the following setup:

I decided to try Y for trust fwd/back and twist for up and down. I decided to not bind a throttle axis and instead have 0, 25, 50, 75 and 100% on the thumb 4-way on the right stick. That's all I need for supercruise.

Now I need to learn to fly again. Using just the Y axis I could not stay in the blue zone and maneuver at the same time to save my life. I will need to put some training into that, but as an alternative I kind of like setting the throttle to 50% (center of the blue) via the button and accelerate or decelerate around that with the twist. If need be, I flick the thumb button to 0% hand have full control with the twist. I will see.

During the play session I realized my left hand is leaning to heavily on the stick urging it to the left. I already had the heaviest springs installed, after the play session I adjusted the position of the stick a bit to the left and also tightened the clutch for the X-axis alot. Will see if this helps during my next session. Also, I need to retrain my muscle memory for all the button combinations, of course. Even the simple act of dropping a heat sink or pulling up a side panel and navigate the tabs required some serious brain power today. I don't have that to spare .

I did some serious crash landings today. This is going to be fun... .