How is it that an Imperial Courier can outclass a Clipper for shield?

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Click the spaceport icon in the top left to get the big list o' stats. The value listed for shields there is the base shields.




Not really. Most other ships in the 400-500 weight class have about 200 base shields as well. Crusader, Chieftain, FAS, and Dropship all have 200, Challenger has 220. So at 180 base the Clipper really isn't that far out of line. It is below par, but not that far below. (Type 7 is down there at 155).

The thing to remember is that the shield generator is only a multiplier to the base shields, and the maximum multiplier comes at the point where your hull mass is 50% of the optimal mass or lower. That's the only actual contribution a bigger class of shield makes, a higher optimal mass. (AFAICT the bonus for being below optimal mass is linear but the penalty for being above it isn't)

The Clipper is at the point where it gets the maximum bonus from a size 7 shield, but because its base shields is only 180 that still means it has less than a ship with a higher base can get.

Meanwhile the Cutter has 600 base shields, so with the same size 7 shield it only takes a very slight penalty for being over the optimal hull mass so it gets 97% of its base value with a class C shield. Class C has no inherent bonus or penalty to optimal strength, you get an extra 10% more or less for going up or down shield classes from C, with Biweave being -10% and Prismatic being +50%. That's additive with the bonus/penalty from mass, so a Clipper with a 7A Prismatic will get 200% of its base shields before engineering/boosters, or 140% with a 7C Bi-Weave.

In a hypothetical space future where the Anaconda got a size 8 bay, it would actually get the same shields with a size 8 generator as it does with a size 7 because it already hits max bonus on the size 7.

Cheers for taking the time to explain that to me, I don't like this system for calculating shields, as an IRL engineer it feels janky as frack. As a large pad, premium rank looked ship, I do think it's base shield should be higher, say somewhere in the region of the Type-10's value of 320, which would give the clipper ~700-900 shields, comparable to an FDL.

Front Page:
View attachment 202946

But not shown on the ship page...

... With class E distributors and even pips.

Coriolis accounts for you draining and using the trickle charge rate of your distributor, wherever the pips are.

Flip those to 6A distros and you get the 7C recovery/recharge being 1:23/1:07 and the 6C being 1:06/0:57. At this point the 7C is getting a faster overall rate (because the shields are 23% stronger but the recharge is only 17% longer, so the actual rate of recharge is consistently better even accounting for drained distro)

Put a pip to systems and it goes to 59/51 for the 7C and 48/57 for the 6C. At that point the 7C is actually recharging in less time as well as having more strength (And neither is able to drain the distro unbroken)

Aesthetics are subjective, but what's not is that small, non-removable antennae, are not optimal for actual wi-fi coverage.



Type/quality of emitter, hull shape, power routing considerations, could also be factors, in addition to placement.

The Clipper is also a relatively cheap ship and cost/target market could well be an in-setting explanation for it's relatively anemic shield emitter system.



Those are completely distributor limited loadouts and not representative of something anyone would actually use.



Charge enhanced with super conduits is still vastly superior to system enhanced for any ship that will actually see combat. Even if you have very low WEP draw weapons, you compromise your boost interval for marginal gains. Much better off replacing fast charge on the shield generator with low-draw.

This is the last clipper loadout I used:

Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

s.orbis.zone

All these builds I've been referencing are scratchpad knocked up quickly for this discussion, there is no way in damnation I'm going to do all the clicks to populate builds for all the ships we've referenced thusfar. So far we have referenced, 'Conda, 'Cutter, 'Corvette, 'Crusader, 'Challenger, 'Chriefan, Beluga, Orca, Type 10, Type 9, and I've drawn comparison builds primarily to review shields MJ, which is unaffected by the distributor and or pips. Certainly not fitting more realistic distributors for reviewing recharge times might have been an oopsie on my part, but I figured if both builds had the same ancilliaries, the trend would be established, and even when morbad revisited the recharge times, the class 7 shield was still taking longer to recharge than the class 6 although it would come on not much longer after the class 6 shield with more strength, so yeah, whtevz, we aren't quite going in circles yer, but I can sense the arms tensing as they preempt the application of steering lock to continue on the imminently circumferential conversation...

Throughout this thread I've repeatedly shown that the clipper gets a raw deal from its large shield generator, in basic terms this size of shield genny in a ship should be in the same ballpark as the shield from that genny in another ship of similar or higher mass (still gives the other ship favourable terms). But the clipper is gyped down to the point whereby ships weighing three times as much as it get more shield MJ from the same genny / booster loadout. Thanks to this conversation I now know a bit more about how shields work, and appreciate the sharing of info and explanations afforded to me. As such I now know HOW its been hobbled, but I remain convinced that the clipper has indeed been hobbled on shields. I'm going to put my hands up and say that a clipper with a base shield value of 500-600 like the cutter and corvette enjoy would be overpowered, but I think something in the 300s like the 'conda, type 10 or fer de lance, would be "fair", although all of those ships would still be able to generate more shields than the clipper simply by virtue of having more utility slots to fill with boosters.

The fact remains that there are ships you can buy and outfit for less money than the purchase price of a class 7 shield generator used on a clipper, which end up with more shields than the clipper with the 7a genny. So the cheap ships have more shield than a genny costing more than the full ship - hows that "balanced"? You are ~21m for a combat fit vulture, ~51m for a 7a shield genny....

 

[Morbad]

Lo-draw only seems to have the advantage at 2 or less pips in systems. Even broken it only makes 1 second difference otherwise, for (on your build) about 7-10 second longer recharge unbroken).

My build can rebuild shields and/or jump away through power plant malfunctions while also rarely bottoming out SYS in actual combat conditions. This is not practical without low draw.

 

[GloatingSwine]

My build can rebuild shields and/or jump away through power plant malfunctions while also rarely bottoming out SYS in actual combat conditions. This is not practical without low draw.

But do you do that whilst never going over two pips in systems? As far as I can tell the only time Lo-Draw is actually having an effect is then. If you have more than 2 pips in systems, even 2.5, you're overwhelming your shield's ability to draw from the capacitor unless it's broken, and when broken the effect is miniscule.

 

[Morbad]

But do you do that whilst never going over two pips in systems? As far as I can tell the only time Lo-Draw is actually having an effect is then. If you have more than 2 pips in systems, even 2.5, you're overwhelming your shield's ability to draw from the capacitor unless it's broken, and when broken the effect is miniscule.

I expect the shields to collapse early and often in most hybrid setups, and there is no guarantee the capacitor will be topped up when it does, or that pips won't need to be moved out of sys during recharge. Even active regen requiring more than two pips can be problematic if one needs to chain boost while firing weapon (such as when in pursuit).

Beyond the SYS drain, power consumption is also an issue on the clipper. A hybrid setup needs an armored power plant if you don't want to explode with 70% of your hull left and anything required to survive or get back in the fight needs to fit below 40% output to prevent from being completely crippled by malfunctions. Even a fast charge class 6 uses too much power, unless the primary mod is enhanced low-power, which cripples thermic resistance, for no real advantage.

 

[Decksmeck]

Cheers for taking the time to explain that to me, I don't like this system for calculating shields, as an IRL engineer it feels janky as frack. As a large pad, premium rank looked ship, I do think it's base shield should be higher, say somewhere in the region of the Type-10's value of 320, which would give the clipper ~700-900 shields, comparable to an FDL.




All these builds I've been referencing are scratchpad knocked up quickly for this discussion, there is no way in damnation I'm going to do all the clicks to populate builds for all the ships we've referenced thusfar. So far we have referenced, 'Conda, 'Cutter, 'Corvette, 'Crusader, 'Challenger, 'Chriefan, Beluga, Orca, Type 10, Type 9, and I've drawn comparison builds primarily to review shields MJ, which is unaffected by the distributor and or pips. Certainly not fitting more realistic distributors for reviewing recharge times might have been an oopsie on my part, but I figured if both builds had the same ancilliaries, the trend would be established, and even when morbad revisited the recharge times, the class 7 shield was still taking longer to recharge than the class 6 although it would come on not much longer after the class 6 shield with more strength, so yeah, whtevz, we aren't quite going in circles yer, but I can sense the arms tensing as they preempt the application of steering lock to continue on the imminently circumferential conversation...

Throughout this thread I've repeatedly shown that the clipper gets a raw deal from its large shield generator, in basic terms this size of shield genny in a ship should be in the same ballpark as the shield from that genny in another ship of similar or higher mass (still gives the other ship favourable terms). But the clipper is gyped down to the point whereby ships weighing three times as much as it get more shield MJ from the same genny / booster loadout. Thanks to this conversation I now know a bit more about how shields work, and appreciate the sharing of info and explanations afforded to me. As such I now know HOW its been hobbled, but I remain convinced that the clipper has indeed been hobbled on shields. I'm going to put my hands up and say that a clipper with a base shield value of 500-600 like the cutter and corvette enjoy would be overpowered, but I think something in the 300s like the 'conda, type 10 or fer de lance, would be "fair", although all of those ships would still be able to generate more shields than the clipper simply by virtue of having more utility slots to fill with boosters.

The fact remains that there are ships you can buy and outfit for less money than the purchase price of a class 7 shield generator used on a clipper, which end up with more shields than the clipper with the 7a genny. So the cheap ships have more shield than a genny costing more than the full ship - hows that "balanced"? You are ~21m for a combat fit vulture, ~51m for a 7a shield genny....

You might be right that the Clipper's base shield is on the weaker side. I have not used one but it is a good looking ship and I plan to fly one sometime. My opinions are subject to being informed and changed often.

Looking at the Clipper's base stats, I think it would probably be some kind of interdictor. It needs a large pad because it has wings/fins but in terms of hull and module compartments, I agree with some previous posts that it is in the medium category and only needs a large pad because of the way it is shaped. It is far faster than most of the other ships. The only other medium ships, the Orca and Mamba, are in the same ballpark, yet the Clipper is still more agile than both of these. It has several small module compartments that can take guardian shield reinforcement modules to raise the shield strength some if you would rather have tougher shields, though you are right in that they will probably still be weaker than some of the other ships in its weight class that do the same thing. (Though it can probably out do the Courier)

I would suggest that the shields are the trade off for the natural speed of the Clipper. The Clipper is probably good for chasing down small and medium ships that are fleeing. That the clipper has been spoken of as having a hardpoint convergence farther away might support the idea that it isn't a point blank range combat vessel. I have not really built one though.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

You might be right that the Clipper's base shield is on the weaker side. I have not used one but it is a good looking ship and I plan to fly one sometime. My opinions are subject to being informed and changed often.

Looking at the Clipper's base stats, I think it would probably be some kind of interdictor. It needs a large pad because it has wings/fins but in terms of hull and module compartments, I agree with some previous posts that it is in the medium category and only needs a large pad because of the way it is shaped. It is far faster than most of the other ships. The only other medium ships, the Orca and Mamba, are in the same ballpark, yet the Clipper is still more agile than both of these. It has several small module compartments that can take guardian shield reinforcement modules to raise the shield strength some if you would rather have tougher shields, though you are right in that they will probably still be weaker than some of the other ships in its weight class that do the same thing. (Though it can probably out do the Courier)

I would suggest that the shields are the trade off for the natural speed of the Clipper. The Clipper is probably good for chasing down small and medium ships that are fleeing. That the clipper has been spoken of as having a hardpoint convergence farther away might support the idea that it isn't a point blank range combat vessel. I have not really built one though.

I thought its trade off ought to have been its weapon convergence, which you can drive a FDL through the gaps...

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

I thought its trade off ought to have been its weapon convergence, which you can drive a FDL through the gaps...

But you are right, they are geay interdictors, I used to use one for powerplay undermining, with the supercruise agility and general speed, Iw as the eagle patrolling a salmon farm.

 

[sidereal6]

this topic is about the shield being terrible on a Clipper despite being capable of using a class 7

It's not that the Clipper is terrible, it's that the Courier is unreasonably good. The Clipper is right in line with other ships of its class. The Courier is just an outlier. If you compare anything to a Courier, the Courier is going to win. Here's proof:

 

[Iskariot]

That being so, the corvette, conda should all have paper thin shields with the same class 7 generator? But they don't all the big three make more shields than the clipper does with a class 7 shield genny and 4x boosters.

All ship hulls have basic stats, before adding any defensive, or offensive modules. These stats feed into the end result of any module you put in your ship.

 

[Bortas]

While I would prefer 10-20% more, Clipper shields are actually not too bad:

And that's with just a class 6 Prismatic Shield Generator... A class 7 shield cell bank is just too nice to have

 

[Northpin]

It's not that the Clipper is terrible, it's that the Courier is unreasonably good. The Clipper is right in line with other ships of its class. The Courier is just an outlier. If you compare anything to a Courier, the Courier is going to win. Here's proof:

The courier has a particularly weak hull tho.

And the Clipper is the Outlier if you consider that the main traits of Imperial ships are Speed and Shields and this is confirmed for Imperial Eagle (136 vs 102 in normal Eagle witn 3A shields) and for Courier, but not quite for Cutter (yes, Cutter with 7A shields is worse than Corvette with 7A shields, but it sort of compensates with the size 8 shields) and definitely not for Clipper

 

[Miko]

A class 8 shield

While I would prefer 10-20% more, Clipper shields are actually not too bad:

View attachment 203028

And that's with just a class 6 Prismatic Shield Generator... A class 7 shield cell bank is just too nice to have

Let me guess you have terrible resistances and 4x 73.9% boosters in play?

 

[Bortas]

Let me guess you have terrible resistances and 4x 73.9% boosters in play?

Luckily I'm currently in my Clipper, so I can take a closer look...

In fact I have only 3 shield boosters equipped, 2 of which are heavy duty with 73.x% and 1 is thermal resistant. That C7 SCB really requires a heat sink launcher Oh, and I've got 3 guardian shield boosters in my optionals... those are ideal for ships with weak base shield strength.

Resistances are as follows:

Not perfect, but wouldn't call it terrible either.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Luckily I'm currently in my Clipper, so I can take a closer look...

In fact I have only 3 shield boosters equipped, 2 of which are heavy duty with 73.x% and 1 is thermal resistant. That C7 SCB really requires a heat sink launcher Oh, and I've got 3 guardian shield boosters in my optionals... those are ideal for ships with weak base shield strength.

Resistances are as follows:
View attachment 203945

Not perfect, but wouldn't call it terrible either.

SCBs and Guardian Shield Reinforcement both synergise better with high resistances than any base shields. If you flipped your main shield to Thermal Resistant and your boosters to 2x Resistance Augment/Force Block and one Heavy Duty/Super Capacitors you'd have the same or better effective protection from everything except ramming and plasma but roughly double the value you get from every use of your SCB.

 

[Einar Donarsson]

If build for Shieldtank, the Courier can outclass a Clipper, yes. There have been quite a few ships that havent gotten any Attention balancewise for a long LOOONG time. There is a Reason you see the Same 3 Ships in Open all the Time.

 

[Bortas]

SCBs and Guardian Shield Reinforcement both synergise better with high resistances than any base shields. If you flipped your main shield to Thermal Resistant and your boosters to 2x Resistance Augment/Force Block and one Heavy Duty/Super Capacitors you'd have the same or better effective protection from everything except ramming and plasma but roughly double the value you get from every use of your SCB.

I'm outfitting for PvP mainly, and the current plasma-meta favors strong shields over highly resistant ones.

 

[efoo]

Some noob flying a Clipper with a class 7E shield generator goes up against an experienced commander flying a Courier with a Prismatic class 2A shield generator fully engineered.

https://s.orbis.zone/c5Up
VS
https://s.orbis.zone/c5Ur

 

[MPL3D]

So how comes that a Fer-de-Lance with 5A shields can outclass a Type-9 Heavy with 8A shields.

 

[efoo]

So how comes that a Fer-de-Lance with 5A shields can outclass a Type-9 Heavy with 8A shields.

Link?

 

[Commander Biscuit]

People point out inconsistencies like this in the hope that FD are completely oblivious of their own design choices. Don't worry, they have noticed they made every ship exactly the way they intended. The Python will always have cargo racks made of tardises. The Vulture will always be an infuriatingly tiny maneuverable shield tank. The Clipper will always defy a bunch of smaller ships and go faster than them, while mass locking them.

All this isn't actually because FD are inept, but rather because module grades are a rigid and inferior way of balancing ships. The creative vision of a ship comes first, and it's nice if the technical details line up with that, but try not to pay too close attention to why one module performs differently in one ship than another.