Fiction How is the frame shift drive meant to work?

[Asadaine]

Hi Everyone,

I'm interested in the fringe science of this game. How is the frameshift drive proposed to function? Is it envisaged as a kind of warp drive/field propulsion system or a kind of Einstien-Rosen bridge generator? Or something else?

Is their a "Science/fiction of Elite" thread anywhere?

Thanks

 

[drew]

It is a form of Alcubierre warp drive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive) as I understand it whilst you're cruising around within a system. As you suggest the hyperspace aspect is more likely some kind of Einstein-Rosen bridge affair.

There isn't much behind this that I'm aware of I'm afraid, though it might be fun to write a 'The Physics of Elite: Dangerous'

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Asadaine]

Cool,

Thanks Drew,

I'd love to see the field propulsion concept developed for upcoming alien ships like inertia-less maneuvering for instance. Making right angle turns at multiples of C would be so awesome. Assuming we eventually get to pilot such craft. Might be too much of a stretch for assumed future capabilities however.

Human ships would be no match for these i guess.

Thanks for your response.

 

[drew]

Based on observations, the Thargoid vessels in previous games appeared to have inertialess drives, certainly they had no drive exhaust outlets as seen with human technology.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Blahdee]

I was just going to make a similar thread, but I have some objections to the explanation given. First, I'm just going to state that part of this is coming from a rather frustrating experience with the drive. At the end of the day, I suppose the explanation will be 'it's a game mechanic', but still...

Here's the part that bugs me: when you are coming in to a planet/base/signal source too fast and pass it by... What is going on here? If you imagine that there is some kind of maximum rate of change to the warp field, that explains why you can't slow down. However, it doesn't explain the fact that the second you've passed the object you're aiming for you can magically slow down much faster.

Another issue: Why does the FSD 'lose traction' near planets? If the presence of mass affects the warp field, why can't you do slingshot maneuvers to gain speed? Wouldn't it steer you towards planets and stars, but not change your speed?

Why does the throttle indicator change when you haven't touched the throttle? if objects in space are affecting the drives' performance, that's one thing, but that shouldn't change the throttle. It's almost like the computer is doing it automatically to make it easier to stop. But if that's the case, and you're trying to leave, it shouldn't care.

Finally, if the FSD is a kind of warp drive, why isn't there a lensing effect of some kind while in supercruise?

 

[Sooden]

I haven't quite got my head around the physics of 'frames' yet but with the limited knowledge I have, I think is using inertial frame shifting, maybe moving it out of phase of normal space.

Its complicated stuff, well for me. Frames have something to do with how things move relative to their local space (I think).

so a still object can look like its moving, from another object in its own frame reference which is also still. This perceived movement can go faster than light speed, but no object is going faster than light in its own frame.

added:
The mass lock and slowing when near other object may be due to your frame entering another objects frame, and relative speeds try to reach less that light speed.

 

[Winterwalker]

A couple of ways I'd look at things;

Here's the part that bugs me: when you are coming in to a planet/base/signal source too fast and pass it by... What is going on here? If you imagine that there is some kind of maximum rate of change to the warp field, that explains why you can't slow down. However, it doesn't explain the fact that the second you've passed the object you're aiming for you can magically slow down much faster.

^^ This assumes "time" to be a constant? That's not necessarily true if you're inside a warp bubble, your reference Hours: Minutes: Seconds may not be the same as that of your target(s), which are outside the warp. I'd also bear in mind, the human mind. Like skydiver's ground rush, or time dilating in a car crash, the moment you understand you're going to overshoot the seconds draw out, brakes seem unresponsive (in my experience!!!). If you care about overshooting you put the throttle down to zero and go ahead and overshoot. Now the perception is of walking back through "treacle" .. you need to reduce your ship's momentum which is now carrying you the wrong direction, turn around and get back towards the destination. These few seconds would (also) be perceived as long.

Another issue: Why does the FSD 'lose traction' near planets? If the presence of mass affects the warp field, why can't you do slingshot maneuvers to gain speed? Wouldn't it steer you towards planets and stars, but not change your speed?

I think you can? Get yourself a "slow down" message and you can slingshot. As far as (slow down) overspeed goes, I'm not sure you do accelerate, it just won't slow down. I also wonder if all gravitational bets are off when in supercruise .. it's not actually clear to me if you are very very heavy (inside your warp bubble) or if the warp makes you incredibly light weight.

Incidentally, I found some debris near a planet the other day, normal space admittedly. It was falling towards the planet, which I thought was very cool.

Why does the throttle indicator change when you haven't touched the throttle? if objects in space are affecting the drives' performance, that's one thing, but that shouldn't change the throttle. It's almost like the computer is doing it automatically to make it easier to stop. But if that's the case, and you're trying to leave, it shouldn't care.

I think there's a degree of computer control (FSD assist) involved. The target distance and time to is shown on HUD and it seems likely that FSD would know this, and try to collapse the warp under some control (collapsing when too fast causes damage to your ship, as it's an implosion). If you try changing targets your "relative" speed jumps, giving overspeed if the new target is closer than the old one.

When leaving a planet your FSD isn't locked by mass, but is still affected by it. Not only do you need to accelerate the ship's mass, overcoming inertia but near a planet the warp, needs to set itself up relative to the large mass of a nearby planet. The FSD would need to wind up, drawing power, to do this?

Finally, if the FSD is a kind of warp drive, why isn't there a lensing effect of some kind while in supercruise?

Don't think you'd notice any lensing because you're inside the lens looking out (Lens has same effect in all 360 degrees around you?).

 

[goemon]

though it might be fun to write a 'The Physics of Elite: Dangerous'

there is already a science guide, i assume DCello had fun writing it: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106861

 

[Blahdee]

First, thanks for the replies. As I argue your points, please don't think I'm saying you're wrong... I don't know and I'm just trying to figure this out.

This assumes "time" to be a constant? That's not necessarily true if you're inside a warp bubble, your reference Hours: Minutes: Seconds may not be the same as that of your target(s), which are outside the warp.

That's an interesting way to look at it... gravity actually is mostly time distortion, not spacial distortion (though both do happen).
But to be clear, if time is running slower for me, I would be seeing the outside world move faster... not, like, a delayed video of the outside world. Basically, my 'second' is longer than your 'second'.

Let me detail a scenario where this bothers me: you come into a system a little too fast... say, keeping the eta at 4-5 seconds, then you try everything you can to 'win' the battle. You'll try to eat up some of your speed by flying slightly away from the destination and adjust... resulting in you circling the target.
If the issue was radial from the target, you'd be able to find an orbit where you can constantly circle the target until you could slow down enough to start reducing your orbit and eventually drop out of cruise. This would be fun, but it's not the way the FSD works.
And the real kicker is the 'okay, I surrender... I messed up the drop', then you release the joystick and you suddenly slow down. I feel like the key thing the drive is worried about when coming in too fast is whether you can see the target or not.

As far as (slow down) overspeed goes, I'm not sure you do accelerate, it just won't slow down.

You're right, you don't accelerate. The velocity readout drops. However, you hear the engine ramp up and you see the throttle indicator go up. The only way I can reconcile this in my mind is if the drive somehow get's power/strength from the gravitational influence of a target. It would be like trying to adjust the cruise control, but every time you hit the '-' button the engine gets a bit bigger.
Though, there is a major flaw with this theory as well... signal sources that don't have anything but cargo containers. That can't be enough mass to make a difference or... if it was, you'd see a much bigger effect on signal sources that had tons of ships flying around (like a conflict zone)

I also wonder if all gravitational bets are off when in supercruise .. it's not actually clear to me if you are very very heavy (inside your warp bubble) or if the warp makes you incredibly light weight.

Well, this is kind of what I've been getting at... it's like some features are mass-dependent (otherwise, why would it behave different as you get closer?) and some aren't... it doesn't feel consistent to me.

I think there's a degree of computer control (FSD assist) involved. The target distance and time to is shown on HUD and it seems likely that FSD would know this, and try to collapse the warp under some control.

When leaving a planet your FSD isn't locked by mass, but is still affected by it.

I agree, there likely is some computer control messing with this, but again there seems to be an inconsistency... First, take the scenario where you are traveling to a far-off planet and merely pass a closer planet. Either the computer is incorrectly slowing the ship down or mass forces the FSD to slow down. If mass forces the FSD to slow down, how can you really have the 'too fast' issue mentioned earlier? the mass itself would slow you down. On the other hand, if you say that mass is slowing you down, then why does changing targets cause the drive to change behavior? how do areas with negligible mass behave like they have mass?

Don't think you'd notice any lensing because you're inside the lens looking out (Lens has same effect in all 360 degrees around you?).

Well, an Alcubierre warp drive compresses space in front of the ship, and expands space behind, so it's not the same in all directions. But the spacial compression would bend more light in toward the center of the field; assuming it's not such a compression that it just reflects the light... in which case you couldn't see anything. Since we're looking out the front, I'd expect a magnification of some kind due to the compression; that's how the hubble deep field photos were taken


I'll go check out that link on the physics and see if I've missed something. It is a game, so I'm sure there's some logical inconsistencies... it just infuriates me sometimes