How many CMDRs really cheat in PVP?

[Northpin]

For balance, obviously do your own research around the reputation, account status, history and motives of those calling "cheats", and their groups. They're pretty well-known so you shouldn't have to work hard.

Apparently now it's called SNOG, 4 years ago there were less advanced trainers.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

From an outsider's perspective, this all seems very pathetic. It looks like there is nothing good coming out of the so called "PvP community", it seems to be riddled with gankers, griefers, trolls, morons, kindergarteners, cheaters, liars, doxxers, bottom holes and worse. A lot of the more public figures run their mouth about everyone but them is unskilled, cheating or both, or something else, and then suddenly, a few months later... banned. I wonder why. There seems to be a pattern.

You ask me, getting rid of that part of the community and removing PvP from the game would do more good than harm. We'd lose our regular Elite Dangerous soap opera, though, but we would finally get the cuddle club we so deserve.

 

[Ryox]

Because the game works on a peer-to-peer network system (not going through a dedicated server) it's almost impossible to prevent people from hacking.

That's why you better record in video ALL of your PvP encounters. If something is fishy you'll be able to debunk it pretty easily from the replay. Then you can simply report the Cmdr to FDev and they'll probably ban them.

 

[Hooplah]

On the other hand...I like debating issues even if I don't agree.

Gaming MODs have been around for years and can be a lot of fun when used appropriately. One example was Freelancer by Microsoft/Digital Anvil which allowed MODs offline but not online. It also provided sever side files for a player to setup their own Internet server for others to play based on their specific rules. Some are limited, others dedicated to combat and more with anything goes. For a 20 year old game there are still lots of player servers and better MODs when the game was released in 2003. I did like flying the Millennium Falcon in Freelancer.

Frontier: Elite II released in 1993 was always offline with the entire game on a 3.5in floppy disc! After coming to my personal 'end of game' moment I doubled my play time creating MODs to fly the Thargoid ship or fly around in my 5000LY jump range Eagle Mk II finding a station far away that wouldn't have been possible in regular game play. Being able to have multiple save games also helped a lot.

Frontier/GameTek in 1995 releases Frontier: First Encounters too soon and at the time is considered by many like me to be the most bugged game ever released. I made some MODs for that more into how to win the hand coded end game and get the Thargoid warship past the bugs.

Along comes Elite Dangerous released in 2013 and will never be setup for MODs. In the early crowd funding testing we were going to get an Offline mode but later when the Devs figured out where they were going NOPE it won't work. OK.

Now ii is 2023 (or 3309) with MODs out there that will work with Elite Dangerous/Odyssey with many talented programmers hacking skills versus Frontier willing to invest in a department to resolve it costing money. If you want a history lesson from America think June 1876 when general Custer and the 7th Calvary with 210 men went up against 3000 Souix and Cheyenne Indians and were massacred. Frontier is smart enough not to go there in a digital world.

If someone is going to cheat respect the game and do it in Solo mode to help a LITTLE per say a grinding mode a player hates to then get back to playing the part of the game they love. In Open mode never cheat but once starting down this path many won't be able to stop especially in PvP. Frontier let the small fry go and focus on the major PvPers.

Per the movie Serenity (2005) quote, "Can't stop the signal, Mal. Everything goes somewhere, and I go everywhere".

Regards

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

If someone is going to cheat respect the game and do it in Solo mode to help a LITTLE per say a grinding mode a player hates to then get back to playing the part of the game they love. In Open mode never cheat but once starting down this path many won't be able to stop especially in PvP. Frontier let the small fry go and focus on the major PvPers.

That is very naive, to say the least. Cheating is okay as long as it is in solo? How much leeway are you prepared to give the cheater? Just cheating "a little" to get some ammo synth? Or just cheat a little to not have to put in the work to get an Anaconda? Cheat a little so you don't need to get the rank for a Cutter? Cheat a little to gather mats to engineer a G5 murder boat? It is not okay as long as it is done in solo. That cheated-together meta FDL with premium ammo isn't going to stay in solo.

There is no "small fly". You cheat - you're out. And rightly so. Tolerate "a little" and wait for it to become "a lot".

 

[Morbad]

Because the game works on a peer-to-peer network system (not going through a dedicated server) it's almost impossible to prevent people from hacking.

It's less the peer-to-peer aspect that makes hacking easy, than an apparent lack of any serious attempt to obfuscate or sanity check relevant data.

If someone is going to cheat respect the game and do it in Solo

This is a multiplayer-only game and cheating, even in Solo, unfairly skews the game to the cheater's advantage at the expense of everyone else. It may not be as in-your-face as a violent confrontation with a foe playing by a better set of rules, but it's still there.

 

[Hooplah]

That is very naive, to say the least. Cheating is okay as long as it is in solo? How much leeway are you prepared to give the cheater? Just cheating "a little" to get some ammo synth? Or just cheat a little to not have to put in the work to get an Anaconda? Cheat a little so you don't need to get the rank for a Cutter? Cheat a little to gather mats to engineer a G5 murder boat? It is not okay as long as it is done in solo. That cheated-together meta FDL with premium ammo isn't going to stay in solo.

There is no "small fly". You cheat - you're out. And rightly so. Tolerate "a little" and wait for it to become "a lot".

You sound passionate about this. OK but NO, being naive is knowing that cheating is going to exist and Frontier won't win the fight finding them most of the time. What do we as players not counting on Frontier do about that? We as very experienced players in our specific play styles will know cheating when we see it and not the 15 second timer anyone can get out of a bad situation if they can survive it. New players thinking that cheating is going on when they take a slow ship into a Thargoid War zone! Good luck.

It's less the peer-to-peer aspect that makes hacking easy, than an apparent lack of any serious attempt to obfuscate or sanity check relevant data.
This is a multiplayer-only game and cheating, even in Solo, unfairly skews the game to the cheater's advantage at the expense of everyone else. It may not be as in-your-face as a violent confrontation with a foe playing by a better set of rules, but it's still there.

I totally agree but cheating will be there.

OK, everyone pile on me if it makes you feel better looking for a player target to hate and vent short term and I started this post so you can. Will Frontier be listening? Maybe that is my goal using your replies...

Regards to all

 

[O'Roarke]

It unpleasantly reminded me of what I saw in the speedrun and no-damages runs community which I used to belong, where cheating slowly became ubiquitous, and players reluctantly condemn hacks because they know they are doing it/might be doing it/might have done it at some point.

Wouldn't surprise me if people cheat in Solo/Group. Prevent themselves from taking damage while exploring/travelling.
Or just cheesing BGS related stuff -- maybe some long time idling carriers that you see out there are from cheaters that got caught.
And a client/server architecture won't prevent cheating, as can be seen in The Wiggle that killed Tarkov.

Having a way for the community to deal with cheating for something like Open-Only PowerPlay might be a must.

I suppose FDev could make an automated process that could connect to an Open instance that peeps are in, as if it was a regular player, and then start "fact checking" the in-game behaviour of a reported player.

If that player's client claims to be flying an Anaconda that boosts like a racing Viper, handles like a racing Eagle, and has a 100-round magazine for all their Pacifiers... boom; caught red-handed.
Similarly if that player's client claims a round from a huge Multi-cannon hits for 9.315 damage without having Standard ammo synthesised show up in a server-side log -- boom, caught.

Just fact-checking client-stated ship stats versus server-stated ship stats should ferret out a lot.

Apply a small price of 40 ARX to report someone for an automated sanity fact-check like the above to prevent people spamming report...
...and the community can police itself by calling in a neutral automated arbiter programmed by Frontier themselves.

If a cheater gets caught and dealt with in under five minutes while it takes them much longer to set up a new account... then it'll kill their desire to try again.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The problem with cheaters is there is always a codebase which is hackable.

This is why i am pleased to annouce my own code-free MMO.

We will spend the next several years releasing pictures of spaceships that you will be able to fly in our game, should we ever actually write any code for it.

These pictures will be available from our store for a range of prices, from tens of dollars for a single seater plane to thousands of dollars for a ship that has a crew of 100s.

Sounds exciting doesn't it? Imagine being your own Captain Kirk or Captain Picard... or the other guy, you know, the bald one.

We will provide a game that makes your every dream come true, just pledge now and we will deliver it to you within 2-3 years, any longer and things will become stale.

Of course, like all ambitious projects, and with us not writing any code for this, it does mean that things may not be delivered on time. But we assure you we are doing everything to make every dream of yours come true.

Pledge now and get a free space turtle to have on your crew!

 

[Red Anders]

The problem with cheaters is there is always a codebase which is hackable.

This is why i am pleased to annouce my own code-free MMO.

We will spend the next several years releasing pictures of spaceships that you will be able to fly in our game, should we ever actually write any code for it.

These pictures will be available from our store for a range of prices, from tens of dollars for a single seater plane to thousands of dollars for a ship that has a crew of 100s.

Sounds exciting doesn't it? Imagine being your own Captain Kirk or Captain Picard... or the other guy, you know, the bald one.

We will provide a game that makes your every dream come true, just pledge now and we will deliver it to you within 2-3 years, any longer and things will become stale.

Of course, like all ambitious projects, and with us not writing any code for this, it does mean that things may not be delivered on time. But we assure you we are doing everything to make every dream of yours come true.

Pledge now and get a free space turtle to have on your crew!

Needs a catchy name. Sun Person, something like that.

 

[GroG79]

Because the game works on a peer-to-peer network system (not going through a dedicated server) it's almost impossible to prevent people from hacking.

That's why you better record in video ALL of your PvP encounters. If something is fishy you'll be able to debunk it pretty easily from the replay. Then you can simply report the Cmdr to FDev and they'll probably ban them.

That is not how I like to play! Not personal against you but this is a game and not much else. Sad honest players feel the need to take steps like this. Happens in every game I suppose..
O7

 

[Imo]

I know this is a controversial topic, and an issue that comes back from time to time, but it is a real question, not a rant, as I don't have the answer and I'm genuinely interested in having opinions.

The reason I raise the issue again is because over the past year there has been quite a few bans from CMDRs who were once seen as great fighters, some that I was friend with and respected, but cheated nonetheless. So the question is out again: how many people really cheat in Elite PVP? I don't talk about those who one-shot you in a Hauler or have infinite shields, because they're easy to spot and are swiftly banned. I'm talking about people who do it the smart way by adding a few % here and there, and won't be detected. The muted reaction from the PVP community (making it sound like everybody knew and it's part of the game) also got me uneasy. It unpleasantly reminded me of what I saw in the speedrun and no-damages runs community which I used to belong, where cheating slowly became ubiquitous, and players reluctantly condemn hacks because they know they are doing it/might be doing it/might have done it at some point. Another disturbing point is that these CMDRs were still losing fights... Assuming they were cheating while losing, what does that tell you about their opponents? Yeah they might be much better, but the issue is, the banned were often genuinely excellent fighters. Can others be THAT better than someone who is both excellent, and cheating? I have my doubts.

Out of curiosity I've checked hacking materials on the internet and it took me 2 clicks to find the right software, which you can use to do pretty much anything, like boosting FSD, doing instant scoop/scans, multiply your supercruise speed, getting maxxed materials, go to Beagle Point in one jump, receive infinite fuel... On the PVP side, I was staggered to see what is possible: you can tweak pretty much any aspect of your ship: increase DPS, increase your shield, hull, module's integrity, decrease heat, put a class4 equivalent weapon in a class1 slot, have a 2E PP with 1000 integrity, 0 heat and more power than an 8A PP, modifiy your resistances, increase piercing on any weapons, boost your capacitators, etc... I actually didn't realize how easy it was, and how precise it is. And it is pretty much undetectable: who could prove that your shield and DPS are boosted by 20% or that your SRB build dosen't produce enough heat? Nobody. But you'll still win, because at high-level it will make a huge diffeence. I know Frontier takes it very seriously, but they largely depends on our reports: who can report something he dosen't even see?

I mean, look at some guys posting ED videos on YT (no names): some stuff is really hard to believe, and dosen't pass even rough calculations. During videos opponents regularly accuse some players of cheating. Could they be wrong all the time? Some players are accused all the time, while others are never accused of anything, despite a superior win ratio. Can't mean nothing (on the other hand, some players accuse everybody of cheating every time the lose).

Truth is, some high-level fighters are probably less skilled and more "boosted" than it appears: this is something I've seen in many other games where for example some OGs can't accept to be caught-up by newer players and start using tools to keep their "skill margin". I know the classical answer to that remark is something along the sarcastic lines of "git gud" or "skill issue" or "you're a noob" so that there is no debate, but the funny thing is that it is the same exact answer I got not long ago from someone who got recently perm banned for cheating... In reality asking these questions has nothing to do with your skill level once you've passed a certain experience treshold. Don't get me wrong: of course skills and builds make the difference in general, but cheating, if used, is more powerful than skills. Cheating has always been a reality in gaming and it has never been easier than it is today as you don't even need coding skills anymore. So the question is not: is there any cheating in PVP but: what is the scale of it? Here I don't have any answer, only a growing sense of uneasiness, hence that post to know if I'm the only one (maybe I am). What do other CMDRs think about it? Has anyone more knowledge about it that I have? Is it just a few black sheeps here and there, or is it a systemic issue? I'm sure most CMDR never cheat, but I know some of them do: I just can't figure out how many, and I'm concerned it might be much more than generally thought. What is the point of a rigged PVP? I prefer to win, obviously, but I don't mind losing, as long as it's fun, and, more importantly, FAIR.

Cheating in Elite Dangerous PvP is a real concern, with some players using undetectable hacks to gain an advantage. While Frontier takes it seriously and relies on player reports, it's difficult to know the scale of the issue. As a player, I value fair play and hope that the community will continue to discourage cheating.

 

[CMDR 1936]

Two player groups have recently (3 days ago) released separate videos showing that hacking in the PvP scene is well-organized and extremely common. I won't link the videos here, but you can just google "Akuma Tebori" and go to his youtube channel. From there you'll see his video, and he also includes a link to a much larger video that exposes the cheating.

Well thank you for that, it actually tends to confirm what I was afraid of, i.e. that cheating at a high-level is probably prevalent: there is some sort of a brutal step, a "ceiling" between the very top and the top, and I doubt it is due to skill only, there are basically no new players whi enter that Olympus, and there is no reason why it should be the case if things were straight.

As a sidenote, I fought a guy recently, I lost big time, could not do much. I had the feeling his shields were veeery strong and whatever I did he was constantly outpacing me, even if we had the same ship. However, as I experienced issues with my mouse during the fight, and quite a few lags, and because the guy is clearly a good pilot, I thought it was just a fair loss... but guess what, his name is first on the list of players where "there is a very high possibility that these CMDR will also use the cheat". So I just watched that fight again, and yeah, I realized that the way he takes up damages is rather peculiar, and so are his dps, but sadly because the fight had lags, I can't report hm as it can be simple latency. The most strinking thing is probably the agility, in the video they talk about "creating ships without any inertia" and so now I know why the CMDR on the video is so much faster than me.

I've also never understood how some CMDR can range-control me by staying at less than 1000 meters so as to land every SRB RG shot at 100% dps, because when I boost away after crossing they should be "away" but as soon as I turn they are less than 1000 meters from me again... Dosen't make sense. Practice and skill, use thrust (no kidding?) they say when I ask them for advice as how to replicate it in my own fights, as I often struggle to range-control. (I mean, I struggle to do the same, as I take them as a reference). Yeah, maybe. Or maybe not.

This won't help alleviate my suspicions in the future, far from it...

Edit: Edit: after I posted this, I spent quite some time on discord servers dedicated to hacks and cheats, and on the SPEAR "network", and there are actually people there who discuss about that and provide evidence that cheating is, sadly, very likely to be common in PVP....

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

[THAT PARTICULAR SOURCE] literally got banned for being a clown, I would advise taking anything from that guy with an immense grain of salt.

As for range control, it's a skill that takes some time to master. A lot of it involves turning super early, and timing your boosts, to catch your opponent in a stall. It can be very difficult to break range against someone super aggressive, especially if you're just spamming boost. I've never been very good at explaining things like this, but I'm sure someone else can if you ask around enough.

Of all things I would expect someone to cheat at, I'm afraid competent piloting isn't something you could hack.

Edit: I’d like to shoot at you one of these days, if I’m ever on again. As I said, I’m far from the best, but I’m no pushover. Kinda wanna see where you’re at, especially as someone who still struggles with range control from time to time myself.

I’ve got an exact copy of my ships from the Xbox transfer, no cheats, or mods, voice attack, or even custom HUD colors. I’d be happy to set something up.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Apparently now it's called SNOG, 4 years ago there were less advanced trainers.

You misread I think. Check your sources. I've heard of the thing you mention. It can be used for anything from cheesing early game to outright cheating ship stats I believe.

At this point there's so much mud slung about there is no source that isn't seen as profoundly discredited by enough people to make it not overly useful. But it seems like some Cmdrs cheated, to varying degrees, for convenience or "a laugh", some were banned. Other groups with highly dubious reputations of their own then seek to apply guilt by association to wide swaths of the player base who coincidentally are their opponents in some in-game context, and also coincidentally outclass them in skill (according to people with enough skill to know).

 

[Northpin]

You misread I think. Check your sources. I've heard of the thing you mention. It can be used for anything from cheesing early game to outright cheating ship stats I believe.

At this point there's so much mud slung about there is no source that isn't seen as profoundly discredited by enough people to make it not overly useful. But it seems like some Cmdrs cheated, to varying degrees, for convenience or "a laugh", some were banned. Other groups with highly dubious reputations of their own then seek to apply guilt by association to wide swaths of the player base who coincidentally are their opponents in some in-game context, and also coincidentally outclass them in skill (according to people with enough skill to know).

I'm talking about [REDACTED: Content does not comply with forum rules.] - and it can be used by fresh accounts to get any ship build that can be put in an coriolis.io build with whatever stats you're able to alter

I dont care about spear (doxing is bad and they got what they deserved), but FDev cant really do anything about cheating in PVP unless they invest in anti-cheating mechanisms - and i dont see that happening given the fact they even reduced the galnet from 5 to 3 articles per week and Updates deployment rate is down from 4 last year to maybe 2 this year.

 

[Martin1970]

But it seems like some Cmdrs cheated, to varying degrees, for convenience or "a laugh", some were banned.

The video from Liquidsnakes shows a cmdr using the hacked FDL in a PvP tournament [the cmdr also won the tournament]. So if they'll use the cheat in a PvP tournament they'll use anywhere. Way to try to minimize this issue.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

The video from Liquidsnakes shows a cmdr using the hacked FDL in a PvP tournament [the cmdr also won the tournament]. So if they'll use the cheat in a PvP tournament they'll use anywhere. Way to try to minimize this issue.

Haven't watched the video. But, did they use the hack to alter the ship stats? Does the tournament result still stand? Do the pilots beaten consider they were beaten fairly? How serious was the tournament? Was there a cash prize? For what reason are people who happen to have flown with the cheat users considered guilty?

Cheating is cheating, and violations FDev can deal with as appropriate. I also think that regardless of the seriousness or otherwise of the context, people shouldn't be relying on "trust me bro" that they're not using cheats this time. They shouldn't use the cheats in the first place, even if just for convenience. If only to prevent the kind of damage that's occurring here at the very least. But there's much more at play here than catching cheaters.

 

[Ryox]

The video from Liquidsnakes shows a cmdr using the hacked FDL in a PvP tournament [the cmdr also won the tournament].

Does the tournament result still stand? Do the pilots beaten consider they were beaten fairly? How serious was the tournament? Was there a cash prize?

That's because of these kind of issues that we, at EOFCC, take extra steps when organizing our 'On-Foot PvP CZ Tournament'.

We require all competitors to record their full match in video and we have referees that analyze all footages afterward.

Anybody caught cheating is banned and their match is counted as a loss.

 

[Deio]

Ok, let me shed some light here.
I won't name anyone.
This group of people are composed of 2-3 squadrons.
So these people could not be able to beat an another group, that exist for years now and keep peace in Galaxy, they are mostly good people there and many are mature humans and play the game ever since it was launched. And this lawful group defeated this conglomerate of outlaws every time because they are well organized and they have combat discipline, they do trainings and even instruct others if you want to learn combat against players.
Then, this group of outlaws, got mad and started to use cheats because, well, egocentrism and megalomany is high in this game. If you can't beat someone - cheat. Using various subtle means, called "magic". Magic can be done through various means, some people already named how it is called now. It used to be called differently, something that was not that dangerous.

So these people got so greedy, that they have this special magic (requires years of training in their magic school) that is able to download skill! Range control, damage increase, reach top speed without boost and even reverse boost It is not possible in Elite with the limitations of the game engine, yet this group managed to inject ships using common XML format and then load in game. MAGIC And several of them injected Thargoid Interceptors that were piloted, sure you have seen them
At first they started in Chomsky spawning Thargoids for "fun" (or so they said then), then they started to spawn Majestic Interdictors (Imperial Cap Ships for who does not know what are those) at Jameson, then using Sidewinders to one shot people in Shinrarta. They say they have "burner" accounts from Epic and Steam for doing this. Whatever that means. And that they refund the game after several hours (on Steam). In CG's they "won" instances because they came with the spawned inexisting ships and shot veterans one by one in few seconds - this was the beginning of their account loss, they were reported and lost. Frontier saw there is something foul going there and acted.
So many accounts were lost because Frontier Development does not tolerate cheating. (more than THREE DOZEN ACCOUNTS! - that is over 30) and I am not joking, everything is verifiable. That is a lot of accounts and money. But momma's credit card is a powerful thing since they bought accounts from the black market. Or used that CC for buying another game package. Then refund it.
This exposure was possible because in this game, honesty didn't died entirely, some people, risked their accounts (lost them sadly forever) and their sacrifice is not in vain, they made possibility to expose this cheating and hacking.
Now, it is Frontier's turn. The ball is in their field. We need to stop this spreading. We want a clean community, no toxicity and especially, NO CHEATS!
We need Frontier to help us. Cheating is no fun, it ruins everyone's gameplay.
It forces people to go in solo, or even to quit the game and none wants that, the game maker will loose player base if this will not stop.
A simple anticheat program with a frontend check for "funny" packets would solve this easily.
We beg you Frontier, we love this game, help us. You are the only one that can save this beautiful game.