How to fix Engineers powercreep without upsetting those who grinded for it?

[IndigoWyrd]

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You might want to schedule an appointment with your otologist. I have a number of fully engineered ships. For some of them i didn't even do any re-engineering, as my legacy modules are on par to the best you can create with the new system. And still i agree with the idea, although i think that Frenotx' version (link to it above) is the better version of this. But the point really is that currently specialisation is too strong. Closing the gap between engineered and non-engineered ships would make non-combat ships more viable.
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What do I need with an octologist? My 8’sare just fine. I do know a good neurosurgeon who can perform wit implants though.

Now that we’re done with the zinger-flinger let's ask the big question:

Why shouldn’t there be a massive gap between combat ships and non-combat ships? Is there any logical reason a Volkswagen bus should be able to stand up to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle?

I didn’t think so either.

 

[Sylow]

Why shouldn’t there be a massive gap between combat ships and non-combat ships? Is there any logical reason a Volkswagen bus should be able to stand up to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle?

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Indeed there is no reason for that, as long as the VW is in an environment were it never has to expect to be attacked. Of course i can be wrong, but according to my perception of the game, this condition is not met. So to stick with the weak analogy: you might be eager to drive the VW into a hot combat zone, but i would guess that most people are not.
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[babelfisch]

I read this, thought about this, read it again, and this is what I hear:

“It’s no fair! They did all that work and got something better than me! I want that too, but without the work! I’m entitled! I didn’t ask to be born!” And toys thrown out of the pram.

Anyone else hear it too?

I am pretty sure that I quite clearly said how I don't care. It's just a proposal to a problem others have, I just recently read about it in another thread and thought this might be a good solution. If I somehow hurt your feelings I am sorry.

 

[babelfisch]

Now that we’re done with the zinger-flinger let's ask the big question:

Why shouldn’t there be a massive gap between combat ships and non-combat ships? Is there any logical reason a Volkswagen bus should be able to stand up to a Bradley Fighting Vehicle?

I didn’t think so either.

I don't know why anyone would drive a Bully through a battlefield.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

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Indeed there is no reason for that, as long as the VW is in an environment were it never has to expect to be attacked. Of course i can be wrong, but according to my perception of the game, this condition is not met. So to stick with the weak analogy: you might be eager to drive the VW into a hot combat zone, but i would guess that most people are not.
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Perhaps the real problem is your perception of the game. Elite isn’t set in Downtown Disney, it’s more like Downtown Kabul during a Death to the Infidels celebration. More aptly, VW drivers don’t expect combat vehicles on the freeway. In Elite though, that does happen.

I am pretty sure that I quite clearly said how I don't care. It's just a proposal to a problem others have, I just recently read about it in another thread and thought this might be a good solution. If I somehow hurt your feelings I am sorry.

Dont worry, my one and only feeling is just fine. I generally jus don’t make a habit of solving other peoples’ Problems unless:

1. I’m getting paid to
2. They’re my problems too.

This meets neither of those Criteria.

 

[babelfisch]

Dont worry, my one and only feeling is just fine. I generally jus don’t make a habit of solving other peoples’ Problems unless:

1. I’m getting paid to
2. They’re my problems too.

This meets neither of those Criteria.

I just happen to be an exceptional nice person.

 

[Sylow]

Perhaps the real problem is your perception of the game. Elite isn’t set in Downtown Disney, it’s more like Downtown Kabul during a Death to the Infidels celebration. More aptly, VW drivers don’t expect combat vehicles on the freeway. In Elite though, that does happen.

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So one moment. So you now say that what i observe is right, so my perception is wrong and i have no idea? Interesting. *shrug* *move on*
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[Agony_Aunt]

I very stridently disagree. Before engineers, NPC ships were just about right for my skill level. After engineers, I could not even face mid rated NPC ships in my unengineered ship. Therefore, I had to stop playing. I do occasionally pop in to see if they've been toned down, but nope. AND TO TOP IT OFF, the launcher touts a non-horizons version of the game that is a lie. One STILL faces engineered NPC ships despite not even being able to land the ship, much less actually interact with an engineer. So yes, there is a problem with engineers and PvE. Specifically, there's no version without them altogether.

Apologies, perhaps i should have said there is no problem for me. NPCs are a challenge, as long as i'm not flying a tricked out combat ship. But there again, Frontier was the same. You got a Panther Clipper with 500t of shield boosters or whatever they were called you were nigh on invulnerable. Same with many PvE games, you get to the end progression and everything becomes easy.

Join the Church of Jameson today, throw off those heretical big ship ways and fly a Cobra, and rediscover the magic of challenging NPCs. If regular fights are still easy, try a wing mission in a Cobra, then complain its too easy

 

[kpmop]

I don't think that it's entirely the engineers that are the "problem" - it's SCBs, HRPs, MRPs and shield boosters that are the big chunk of the cause. Even if you boosted base ship stats and squashed eng stats, the difference between a PvE ship with cargo racks and SRVs and a PvP ship packed with shield boosters etc. would still make it a one-sided fight, and that's assuming 1v1...

Plus it would make the engineers mostly pointless - so ultimately more hassle than it would be worth IMO.

 

[babelfisch]

I don't think that it's entirely the engineers that are the "problem" - it's SCBs, HRPs, MRPs and shield boosters that are the big chunk of the cause. Even if you boosted base ship stats and squashed eng stats, the difference between a PvE ship with cargo racks and SRVs and a PvP ship packed with shield boosters etc. would still make it a one-sided fight, and that's assuming 1v1...

Plus it would make the engineers mostly pointless - so ultimately more hassle than it would be worth IMO.

True, but PvP vs PvE is not the problem I tried to solve with this thread.

 

[GunnerBill]

I read this, thought about this, read it again, and this is what I hear:

“It’s no fair! They did all that work and got something better than me! I want that too, but without the work! I’m entitled! I didn’t ask to be born!” And toys thrown out of the pram.

Anyone else hear it too?

Honestly I don't get this either?

Similar to this small ships should be able to take on big ships guff. I get the feeling that all these people moaning about this disparity are FPS players who expect to be able to pick up a couple of power-ups then hop, skip and jump their way to the flag.

Yay but that's not Elite.

 

[babelfisch]

Honestly I don't get this either?

Similar to this small ships should be able to take on big ships guff. I get the feeling that all these people moaning about this disparity are FPS players who expect to be able to pick up a couple of power-ups then hop, skip and jump their way to the flag.

Yay but that's not Elite.

You are wrong.

PS
And please don't ask me to elaborate. If I would say that you like to dress in women's clothes I wouldn't expect a detailed answer either.
Personally I don't really care about it, but there are people who think that power creep hurts the game. I have absolutely no interest in discussing if it's true or not, I just provide a potential solution for a perceived problem. And that's even more than I initially wanted to reply. As said above, it seems like I am just a nice guy sometimes.

 

[Schmack]

Power creep isn't the issue, imo. The issue, if there is one (I'm not convinced there is one) is that there have been too many modifiers applied to weapons, shields and other modules which creates a difficulty curve for people who don't have 24 hours a day to play (but plenty of time to post here). Just watching some PvP videos, or based on experience from having gank attempts on me (failed ones), the amount of crazy messages about this or that module or heat effect or other warnings I cannot even keep up with has created a bad taste in my virtual mouth for it. All the visual effects of it is also off putting. It's become too arcade like. I can just imagine floating bubbles we have to fly through to gain certain attributes... like CQC.

If my commander could purchase or earn Boots of Escape +5 ganking would be irrelevant.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

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So one moment. So you now say that what i observe is right, so my perception is wrong and i have no idea? Interesting. *shrug* *move on*
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More a case of What Color is This Dress?

Some said white and gold, some said black and blue. Someone saw it as it really was, others saw what they thought. Perception is a funny thing depending on how you look at it.

 

[babelfisch]

Power creep isn't the issue, imo. The issue, if there is one (I'm not convinced there is one) is that there have been too many modifiers applied to weapons, shields and other modules which creates a difficulty curve for people who don't have 24 hours a day to play (but plenty of time to post here). Just watching some PvP videos, or based on experience from having gank attempts on me (failed ones), the amount of crazy messages about this or that module or heat effect or other warnings I cannot even keep up with has created a bad taste in my virtual mouth for it. All the visual effects of it is also off putting. It's become too arcade like. I can just imagine floating bubbles we have to fly through to gain certain attributes... like CQC.

I absolutely agree. I still believe that power creep could be a general problem (be it PvP or PvE) because when you take it to the extreme it might render entire parts of the game useless. But as said above, I am not into discussing this with people who don't want or can't see this as a problem, there would be nothing to gain for either side (if there are any).

 

[Schmack]

Apologies, perhaps i should have said there is no problem for me. NPCs are a challenge, as long as i'm not flying a tricked out combat ship. But there again, Frontier was the same. You got a Panther Clipper with 500t of shield boosters or whatever they were called you were nigh on invulnerable. Same with many PvE games, you get to the end progression and everything becomes easy.

Join the Church of Jameson today, throw off those heretical big ship ways and fly a Cobra, and rediscover the magic of challenging NPCs. If regular fights are still easy, try a wing mission in a Cobra, then complain its too easy

Not up on the lore but what's the odds Jameson couldn't afford a bigger ship? Or that if he had one, he'd still be with Lori (or Jenna.. ahem)? I mean, Gluttony Fang beat a Basilisk with an Eagle. Jameson must have been a crack pilot. Take the "crack" however you want...

 

[mistohise]

Don't feel bad about it, you don't need to understand everything.

I don't recall saying that I don't understand it.

A number of players use this forum to make up problems with the game that they then expect to be solved in a way which would likely benefit them.

Having gone to the effort of upgrading my ships to the point where I find them useful and fun to play with, I'd be fairly apposed to people fixing that "power creep" by way of making my game less fun again.

Yes I quite enjoy having a ship that's more powerful than others. That's not a problem. I worked for it and it makes the game better for me.

 

[Space Dandy]

Heh didn't realize there was a problem that needed fixing with engineers. Seems to me engineers just had a pass so how about we move on to something else as it seems counter productive to be "fixing" that same stuff over n over etc.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Not up on the lore but what's the odds Jameson couldn't afford a bigger ship? Or that if he had one, he'd still be with Lori (or Jenna.. ahem)? I mean, Gluttony Fang beat a Basilisk with an Eagle. Jameson must have been a crack pilot. Take the "crack" however you want...

Indeed he was, and all us poor mortals can do is try our best to emulate him.

We know he spent all his career in a Cobra and it is suspected that he died in his Cobra, and his body ascended, which is why none was found.

Now join me in prayer!

Our Lord, who art in Cobra,
Jameson be thy name,
Thy Cobra come, thy will be done,
In Lave as it was in Zaonce,
Give us this day our daily credits,
And forgive us our bounties,
As we forgive those who have bounties against us,
lead us not into rebuy,
but deliver us from pirates,
for thine is the Cobra,
the power and the glory,
Forever and ever,
Cobra.

 

[babelfisch]

I don't recall saying that I don't understand it.

A number of players use this forum to make up problems with the game that they then expect to be solved in a way which would likely benefit them.

Having gone to the effort of upgrading my ships to the point where I find them useful and fun to play with, I'd be fairly apposed to people fixing that "power creep" by way of making my game less fun again.

Yes I quite enjoy having a ship that's more powerful than others. That's not a problem. I worked for it and it makes the game better for me.

How would it stop your ship from being more powerful than others?

Heh didn't realize there was a problem that needed fixing with engineers. Seems to me engineers just had a pass so how about we move on to something else as it seems counter productive to be "fixing" that same stuff over n over etc.

The proposal wouldn't even touch the Engineers.