How to make piracy better?

[Robert Maynard]

I'm pretty sure if I bumped into a pirate who destroyed less than 1% of his targets I'd chose to run from him, because he's clearly awful at his job. Why fear a pirate who never kills you?

That might just lead you to be another of the 1% - depending on the skill of the pirate in question. Maybe the rating also needs to in some way indicate whether the pirate gains cargo from the target or not - and possibly also only take into account targets that did not run.

A pirate with a high rating would need to be financially successful in the estimation of the Pirates' Guild - they would probably not be handing out accolades to penniless pirates, after all....

 

[ComradeFresco]

I'm pretty sure if I bumped into a pirate who destroyed less than 1% of his targets I'd chose to run from him, because he's clearly awful at his job. Why fear a pirate who never kills you?

Because he COULD murder you easily if he needs to - he simply doesn't unless he has too.

Basic Sun Tzu art of war crap here: if your enemy has no belief of escape/survival they will fight you bitterly to the end. Give your enemy the belief that they can be spared and their resolve to oppose you crumbles.

 

[Yokai]

My opinion is that FD has an unsolvable issue on their hands. Piracy mechanics are fundamentally unbalanced right now, with all risk on the traders (especially in larger ships) and zero risk for the pirates. This is one of those situations where balancing for PvP negatively affects the PvE side of the game, and vice-versa. There is no winning design strategy here.

The only way to make PvP "piracy" scenarios balanced would be to:

1. Make the cost of hull damage or ship loss absolutely equal for all players regardless of ship size or class, AND
2. Make cargo loss to a Player pirate be a "faux" loss, where you don't actually lose up to 4 million cr in cargo. The simplest way to do this would be a system-forced loss of like 20 tons max. You keep the rest of the tonnage and the pirate gets a free 20 tons of what you were hauling. That way, you endure a _small_ sting as the trader, but not a catastrophic loss. And if they manage to blow up your ship entirely, then when your ship respawns from insurance, it still has full cargo in it minus that 20 ton "booty" that the pirate claimed.

Of course, to implement either of the above things would totally wreck the PvE side "immersiveness" and "realism". Hence, my assertion that this is a fundamentally unsolvable problem. Made worse by the fact that a lot of so called "pirate" players are just ganksters who will shoot to kill no matter what.

 

[ComradeFresco]

To say there is zero dangerous for the pirate is untrue. Bounties & their ship insurance. Now one may feel thats not enough (i agree i believe piracy should mean you can't easily enter most well regulated/civilized systems) but that's not the same as zero dangerous.

Also considering the pirate profits about 1/100th of what a trader does assuming that they should share equal danger is silly. Pirates earn small-change. Traders earn big cash.

 

[Quineloe]

Anyway, black market profits need to go up. Simples. Right now rares are the only way you can make reasonable money pirating (ie. 400k+/hour), and that's in part becuase their black market prices are a bit broken. The 50t of cargo I extracted from the T9 yesterday should have been worth a bunch, but they were only worth ~18t of rares, as they only sold for ~3k/tonne, rather than ~8.5k.

If an anarchy station is actually held by a pirate faction (and not a hippie commune that reads "Unfettered" in the system faction detail screen - something people should realize, not every anarchy faction is a mafia or pirate faction), then the commodities market should buy stolen goods and there would be no need for a black market.

Another option would be missions given by the pirate faction to fetch stolen goods - and not illegal ones, since that's only Toxic waste in pirate stations and makes for poor bulletin board reading with 10 toxic waste missions on it - that are not sold by the stations economy and pay double the price.

A third option would be to introduce some high price goods. Even 19k for Platinum is a bit of a joke right now. Introduce some multi-ton cargos that are are just as expensive per ton.

 

[Aircool]

You made a decision, so live with it. Don't issue a threat unless you're willing to follow it through.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Perhaps even system wide alerts for players to pick up on once one NPC or PC pilot has identified them "ALERT: WANTED CMDR JAMESON SEEN IN THIS SYSTEM! ALL AUTHORITY VESSELS AND LICENSED BOUNTY HUNTERS PLEASE RESPOND!"

That's a great idea, I would love to see that implemented. I would even like to see that extended to the point where you buy a licence to bounty hunt and this provides you with these alerts for any player pirate spotted within say 100 lightyears or something.

 

[Trigg]

If you're firing on a 'Clean' ship in a non-anarchic system, you should receive a small fine for opening fire, but a large bounty - which can't be paid off - for actually destroying them. Make the punishment for 'murder' something that will actually make you think twice.

A trader will still prefer to sacrifice a small amount of profit in order to avoid an expensive repair bill but the killer 'pirate' may think twice before pulling the trigger - and those that do will need to look over their shoulder for bounty hunters.

 

[Darth Ender]

If the penalty is extremely high, the trader may call the pirate's bluff, since the cargo would net them an un-wipable bounty on their head. Even if it was payable, if it was too large most cargo would be not worth pirating. Any pirate not willing to kill isn't really making much of a threat, even if they wanted to teach the guy a lesson, ship's can explode long before their hull reaches 0% if you get lucky. Or unlucky in this case.

I dont pirate and I kill any I come across but if you want piracy to be more functional, you need convoys with ships that carry lots of cargo. You bang them up good and they drop some cargo or pay you in credits to not shoot them up to begin with. Pirating individual players is likely to never be much more than just a semi-plausable excuse to pvp. They would not be hauling much and would be more inclined to either fight or be killed, making the entire endeavor not very financially sound for the pirate.

 

[Trigg]

The pirate could really ruin the trader's day by taking them down to 1% hull instead.

The repair costs from that would be far less than just dropping a few T of cargo

 

[Talarin]

I'm going to use a word you don't see on the forums very often; buff!
.
Before I get stuck in, I'll say that no matter what piracy/interdiction mechanics are implemented you'll always have the risk of those players or NPCs who's sole aim in life is to murder. No matter how you try to improve piracy that will always be true and anything which is implemented in favour of the 'proper' pirate stands to be abused/gained from by the more psychopathic players. Those advantages will also be gained by bounty-hunters, so it should balance out (but will leave traders more vulnerable).
.
However, in Elite I think that's a risk that all traders should have to bear - whether in solo, group or open mode.
.
I already agree with the more obvious suggestions in the thread: Improved system security responses, harsher in-game criminality (including getting rid of the ludicrous ability to pay off an assault or murder charge), improve the whole black market economy, vast improvement to cargo limpets.
.
Buff mass-lock/FSD delay: It is far, far too easy to escape from interdictions via submit/re-start frame shift drive. Pirates don't get the opportunity to demonstrate their superiority in a controlled fashion (and thus negotiate terms of cargo surrender). Same for bounty-hunters.
.
(How about a weapon which introduces a temporary gravity field around it's target, stopping them from launching into super-cruise?)
.
Expand non-lethal weapon choice: Something that temporarily disables or degrades ship systems would be of huge benefit to both parties. Pirates might get more time to use limpets, defender might cause enough confusion to be able to escape. Grapple guns (pulling the target closer)? EMP Mines (area of effect detonation after a certain time period)? You get the idea.
.
Improve the ability for bystanders to intercede: I'd like a whacking great "crime reported" navigation mark to appear in super-cruise if I'm nearby, which I can navigate to and drop-out at. (I appreciate the technical issues with this - given the networking model used, but still...) Traders shouldn't feel alone - they should feel protected by the police, bounty hunters and potentially armed merchantmen.
.
Improve comms as well. Would it be too hard to implement a communication wheel which allows pre-determined messages to be sent to players or NPCs (so the NPC could react accordingly too)?
.
Just some thoughts from a die-hard trader...

 

[DaveB]

...Anyway, black market profits need to go up. Simples. Right now rares are the only way you can make reasonable money pirating (ie. 400k+/hour), and that's in part becuase their black market prices are a bit broken. The 50t of cargo I extracted from the T9 yesterday should have been worth a bunch, but they were only worth ~18t of rares, as they only sold for ~3k/tonne, rather than ~8.5k.

And this, you scurvy rat , is why one of my main negotiating tactics with your brethren is when they demand Xt, I offer them less on condition it's abandoned and can be sold openly. Or even less if it's not only abandoned but they can pick which cans (if there are any that are off limits for any reason, that will be included in the offer to let them pick). I'm a businessman. We can do business.

Most pirates, assuming they actually ARE pirates and get on the comm before they get on the trigger, will take the extra profit while letting me keep more of mine. If black market prices went too high it would remove the possibility of that option.

 

[Tigga]

Because he COULD murder you easily if he needs to - he simply doesn't unless he has too.

Basic Sun Tzu art of war crap here: if your enemy has no belief of escape/survival they will fight you bitterly to the end. Give your enemy the belief that they can be spared and their resolve to oppose you crumbles.

There is simply no way you can get below 1% kills unless you chose not to kill people who run away. People aren't as rational as you'd think.

 

[Darkium]

I did took a trader to 1%, then I repeated to drop cargo. He turned toward me and activated boost and jump drive. He didn't survive. Anyway:

Message close pilots when someone is disconnecting.
No more or less damage on interdiction.
Better price in black market, like 75% instead of 50%.
Better limpet.
More goods dropping when shooting hatch.
Between 1 or 3 cargo surviving ship destruction. (0 mean the trader could try to starve the pirates. Too much tempt the pirates to finish ships for extra profit after the trader already paid up.)

 

[ComradeFresco]

There is simply no way you can get below 1% kills unless you chose not to kill people who run away. People aren't as rational as you'd think.

True i didn't really consider the specfic 1% of it ... that is an awfully low number. The concept isn't bad but the specific value is too low.

 

[Trigg]

I
Improve the ability for bystanders to intercede: I'd like a whacking great "crime reported" navigation mark to appear in super-cruise if I'm nearby, which I can navigate to and drop-out at. (I appreciate the technical issues with this - given the networking model used, but still...) Traders shouldn't feel alone - they should feel protected by the police, bounty hunters and potentially armed merchantmen.

That would definitely make life more interesting for both Pirates and Bounty Hunters. The pirate because they want to get the loot and get out of there quick, hunters because they'll want to catch the pirate red handed and cash in.

 

[Tigga]

And this, you scurvy rat , is why one of my main negotiating tactics with your brethren is when they demand Xt, I offer them less on condition it's abandoned and can be sold openly. Or even less if it's not only abandoned but they can pick which cans (if there are any that are off limits for any reason, that will be included in the offer to let them pick). I'm a businessman. We can do business.

Most pirates, assuming they actually ARE pirates and get on the comm before they get on the trigger, will take the extra profit while letting me keep more of mine. If black market prices went too high it would remove the possibility of that option.

Oh, I do negotiate for this as a pirate as well, though it's very hard to confirm as scooping the first one is a bit dangerous before the cargo has stopped, and people tend to get moving pretty quickly. I've only had one person drop stolen goods when he said he wouldn't though. He's on a list of one right now!

One problem is there's just too much typing. Every second I'm typing I'm delaying the time I can react to the other guy doing something. It's even worse with the guys who insist they must face you at all times, as you have to watch for the ram.

 

[DaveB]

Oh, I do negotiate for this as a pirate as well, though it's very hard to confirm as scooping the first one is a bit dangerous before the cargo has stopped, and people tend to get moving pretty quickly. I've only had one person drop stolen goods when he said he wouldn't though. He's on a list of one right now!

One problem is there's just too much typing. Every second I'm typing I'm delaying the time I can react to the other guy doing something. It's even worse with the guys who insist they must face you at all times, as you have to watch for the ram.

Sadly, the reason I would be facing you while negotiating is that I've encountered too many of the "other sort" and want to keep a missile lock just in case.... trust in a business deal only goes as far as one has sanctions to enforce it, but then in your trade you're perfectly aware of that

ETA: As for the "kill after drop" crew, there are ways a trader can make life harder - or even impossible - for them.. dropping the cans individually while at full throttle - they end up widely spaced so the pirate is hard pressed to scoop more than half of them before the rest despawn. That's a particularly nasty one, one that I WONT pull on a pirate that plays fair

 

[Hemlock]

I have only been interdicted by a CMDR one time. I was more curious than anything else. When politely asked for 5 tons of rares, I suggested he come and claim them. I barely got move before the shields were done and the hull was getting stove in all over the place. I said "ok ok" and dropped the cargo (I had to figure out how to do this.. never had to before).

So, my suggestion is upgrading defenses and offenses of the trader to improve things. I upgraded my "Cobra Trader" to make the next such encounter much more painful for the pirate... oh and there will be no discussion next time, just weapon fire.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The pirate could really ruin the trader's day by taking them down to 1% hull instead.

The repair costs from that would be far less than just dropping a few T of cargo

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have found the most evil player on the forums i believe