Yes he was trying to perfect/improve an idea/a suggestion to try and improve PVP... to encourage it. There was nothing in there nor intention to nerf your other ships. So put your ideas out here, surely you see room for some improvement.
Yes he was trying to perfect/improve an idea/a suggestion to try and improve PVP... to encourage it. There was nothing in there nor intention to nerf your other ships. So put your ideas out here, surely you see room for some improvement.
I am certainly willing to concede that there are issues with PvP in ED.
The fundamental issue, IMO, is simply that players who want "peace and quiet" are going to stay in Solo regardless of any minor nerfs to combat ships.
Take a look at any CG thread and you'll see, based on the quantities people are hauling in a single load, that they're running shieldless ships to maximise their cargo capacity.
I'm not passing judgement on such people but when you've got people doing that - in Solo, I assume - I doubt they're suddenly going to decide to play in Open just because combat ships might be slightly easier to kill.
And then, added to that, you're also creating a bunch of new problems for people who this idea isn't intended to hinder (or regulate, or whatever you want to call it).
As I said, out of my 31 ships, this idea would screw up 15 of them.
The two things that make an idea bad are:-
1) not achieving the desired goal.
2) creating unintended consequences for 3rd parties.
This idea ticks both of those boxes, I'm afraid.
I certainly agree that there's no "down-side" to flying a combat ship - for combat - but I don't think making them a little bit less powerful is going to change anything.
Your average trader still isn't going to be willing and/or able to defeat them in combat and your average PvPer is still going to be a better combat pilot than the majority of PvE players.
The sort of "material handicap" that you'd have to impose to level the playing field sufficiently would need to be something along the lines of restricting PvPers to no ship bigger than a Cobra... fitted with weapons that fire cuddly toys.
That's why it's a non-starter IMO.
It's far better (again, IMO) to try and find other ways to deter people from indulging in "mindless violence" in certain situations by the use of a working C&P system - which would also genuinely do a lot to add depth to the game by creating systems which are relatively safe for law-abiding pilots and also create systems which are genuinely scary to travel through due to the likelihood of attack.
Let's take a step back ? Why is PvP rubbish?
Because no one trusts a player in Open?
Because a whole swathe of the PvP community were caught cheating?
Because the only thing PvP is to a PvE player is a slaughter?
There is nothing wrong with the ships. There is nothing wrong with PvP. There is something wrong with the PvP community..
There's a new video I see tonight of some FDL managing to fool a corvette pilot into firing on him which in turn makes the station open up on the corvette. And thee FDL pilot posts it to the forums as some kind of gloat. "Lookz me! I de best PvP !"
Is that you're kind of PvP you want us all to be interested in?
Try fixing your community. Everything ls is fine. In my humble opinion
I don't believe the suggestion was to put traders on a level footing or tbh anything to do with traders....they are their own worst enemies most often. The OP was trying to open the PVP field up a little so that it was not exclusively dominated by pure META builds and would allow well thought out combat ships to at least stand a chance to even compete or at least not to have simply run away. For instance for most other combat gameplay you would need at least one other module but most carry two, this makes a large difference in resistances/hull/armor if min/max and one that may be insurmountable even for a good pilot so most would choose to wake....boring gameplay and in itself is pretty restrictive because you have to either PVP completely or play the game. For myself it would nice to be able to do both.
The other point I believe is that the META itself is restricted now whilst a slight restriction on modules would mean some form of compromise and variety in order to make it more interesting.
As to your ideas about varying security I completely agree. I would say no loadout rules in anarchy and turn up the AI. Let it be a place to be feared but with huge rewards, let the brave fly and the foolish die.
No.
There are ships which have military slots, yeh? Restrictions, you gotta have something military in there, right? Then you have a load of 'free' slots' that you can put whatever you want in. ok?
So, if you take those military slots and simply change the restriction from one of military item to one of non-military item, you immediately make it so that people can carry at least 2 non military items and still do pvp effectively, WIN! The prupose of those miltary slots was to give a ship more protection while still allowing it to carry mission gear. Unfortunately, FD failed to anticipate that players could then put a military item in EVERY slot, making the already overpowered ships more so. It;s like the parents went away and left little Johnny to look after his sister Jane, they gave Johnny enough money to look after both, but Johnny thought, screw that, I'm spending it all on me! There's a phrase for that too, it goes 'having your cake and eating it'. They should have given the money to Jane, cos they knew Johnny was a griefer...silly parents.
If you switch that around, you've STILL given those ships the extra slots, they're just non military now, that doesn't mean they can't still fill al the optional slots with military items, it just means that someone else in the same ship can ALSO have a military item in every slot and a disco sscanner and fuel scoop in the now (non military ) restricted slot. Nobody got nerfed, we just repurposed an existing restriction to make pvp better. Get it?
I know Kurama says he can win a pve ship, I'd have to see him do so against someone like peleuch (sp?) to believe it.
If you think I'm crying nerf now, wait till you see my plan for utility slots. lol.
You can watch Rinzler do it. MassiveD also made a survival guide for traders. You don't have to take my word for it.
What's the fun of being forced to carry useless modules?
Non meta builds won't appear after forcing people to carry a cargo rack. The meta will always be there until the majority of combat builds have about the same power.
No, but neither is it complaining about it or telling literally everybody who disagrees with the OP they don't understand it. Maybe you should update the OP or post a more detailed draft of your idea, saying we don't understand 1000 times doesn't help.
Not sure about that.
Take a look at the OP and you'll see it's littered with words like "traders", "CGs" and "mission-runners".
Certainly seemed like the implication was to reduce the differential between an apex combat ship and a "mission-runner" to a point where the combat ship isn't assured of victory.
Which leads us to a bit of a conundrum within ED.
Thing is, a player intent on doing PvE stuff has absolutely no compulsion to play in Open if they don't want to.
"Please, play in Open so I can smoke you with my flying death-machine"
"Erm, nup"
"Tell you what, I'll get rid of a couple of my HRPs and MRPs so you've got a tiny little chance of doing a bit more damage before I destroy you"
"Well, no. I don't think so"
"How about if I fit a scanner and some cargo racks instead of all those SCBs?"
"Look, I just want to deliver cargo and earn credits, so no"
"I'll fly in a Cobra and I'll fit it with standard weapons with no engineering"
"Didn't you hear me? I just want to deliver cargo. I'm not interested in pew-pew"
"Go on, I'll even start with my shields down and let you shoot first. Please, let me shoot at you"
"Go away, this is getting a bit creepy now"
I'm exaggerating, of course, but it's a valid point. A PvE player doesn't want "a bit of a chance" at retaliating against a PvP ship. They don't even want a "fair fight" because they're simply not interested in any fight at all because they've got other things to do.
If that wasn't the case, they'd probably already be in Open, in a suitably configured ship.
Unless I'm specifically intent on a bit of excitement, why would I want to do a CG in Open, for example?
What I want to do is earn a heap of credits and/or help the CG succeed.
PvP doesn't figure into those goals in any way so why would I want to add it as a possible hindrance?
And then, beyond that, you'd have to wonder at the constant need for "sitting duck" targets for PvP players too.
If PvP is such a thriving community, how come they aren't picking fights with each other rather than desperately trying to entice PvE ships into Open?
Here's a wacky thought:-
Come up with some kind of conflict within the Pilot's Federation over, say, members' participation in some local war.
Escalate that over a month or so, write some juicy galnet articles and then, for the finale, have a bunch of CGs where the goals are achieved ONLY by having Pilot's Federation members destroying each other.
In fact, why not have some faction form a splinter group of the Pilot's Federation and have them in constant conflict with each other, taking control of stations and even systems, so that players would have a constant reason to involve themselves in PvP?
Do we think those CGs and those conflicts would be popular?
I'd hope they would be because if they weren't it'd rather suggest that "PvPers" are actually, for the most part, only interested in shooting "sitting ducks" rather than participating in any proper combat.
As for "meta" ships, I don't think nerfing/restricting/limiting anything is going to have an effect.
Even if you limit PvP to Sidewinders with a single optional slot and a single weapon, there's always going to be a "best choice" for how to equip a ship for a specific role.
Speed: You can make your ship go super fast if you want, just make it light and get good thrusters.
Jump range: Get a good FSD and make your ship light.
Heat management: Low emissions powerplant, remove shields, add a ton of heat sinks, make your weapons efficient.
Firepower: Well, PvP ships already do this so I'll skip it.
Cargo capacity: Fill up with cargo racks.
You can boost certain stats in your ship but that comes with a price. My 57 ly Asp won't stand a chance with a PvE Asp in combat because mine doesn't even carry weapons. A shieldless trade ship won't last long against another ship as well. A cool ship doesn't have the same protection as many combat ships.
We have freedom. We can do anything. Please don't remove that feature.
My issue with this entire line of thought is three-fold:
1) The premise is fundamentally incorrect.
2) Frontier has already put multiple ways of effectively dealing with the issue being discussed, and they all work quite well. Only one of them is 100% effective, but the others are still pretty good.
3) The OP doesn't want to utilize those ways, and is instead attempting to push changes that cater to his own, personal, playstyle preference while attempting to thinly disguise it as something that would be good for everyone.
If you want to fly in Open as a Trader or Mission Runner:
- Build your ship for it - someone already mentioned Rinzler's video, and it's definitely worth a watch for those who haven't seen it. Apologies, I don't have a link.
- Fly in Wings, or with Escorts - the latter isn't supported all that well (yet), but the option is there. There is some level of safety in numbers, after all, but that doesn't guarantee safety for all every run. I would love to see a video of armed Traders wrecking a ganker.
- Understand and accept that if you build your ship with the optimum configuration for Trade or Mission Running, and no regard for defenses, your only option is to try to escape. This is as it should be, and already is.
If you do not wish to do that, Frontier has provided Private Groups, where you can fly with others and not worry so much about being destroyed by another player. While less, the risk is still there, though.
If that is still too much risk, Frontier has provided the Solo mode, where the only thing you have to worry about are your own mistakes, or ineptitude.
Since these multiple options exist, and they all work well, there isn't really any need to make changes - unless the goal is to cater to a certain playstyle in Open that eliminates the need to make friends in an online MMO game without restricting the experience.
Riôt
1) The premise is fundamentally incorrect.
2) Frontier has already put multiple ways of effectively dealing with the issue being discussed, and they all work quite well. Only one of them is 100% effective, but the others are still pretty good.
3) The OP doesn't want to utilize those ways, and is instead attempting to push changes that cater to his own, personal, playstyle preference while attempting to thinly disguise it as something that would be good for everyone.
If you want to fly in Open as a Trader or Mission Runner:
- Build your ship for it - someone already mentioned Rinzler's video, and it's definitely worth a watch for those who haven't seen it. Apologies, I don't have a link.
- Fly in Wings, or with Escorts - the latter isn't supported all that well (yet), but the option is there. There is some level of safety in numbers, after all, but that doesn't guarantee safety for all every run. I would love to see a video of armed Traders wrecking a ganker.
- Understand and accept that if you build your ship with the optimum configuration for Trade or Mission Running, and no regard for defenses, your only option is to try to escape. This is as it should be, and already is.
If you do not wish to do that, Frontier has provided Private Groups, where you can fly with others and not worry so much about being destroyed by another player. While less, the risk is still there, though.
If that is still too much risk, Frontier has provided the Solo mode, where the only thing you have to worry about are your own mistakes, or ineptitude.
Since these multiple options exist, and they all work well, there isn't really any need to make changes - unless the goal is to cater to a certain playstyle in Open that eliminates the need to make friends in an online MMO game without restricting the experience.
Riôt
The point was to reduce the disparity. Yes there will still be meta builds, there will still be excellent pilots the point was to give a COMBAT built ship playing the game a chance however small as opposed to simply waking there by improving PVP or at least encouraging it. What is wrong with that? It may not be the solution but one that I happen to like and I certainly would love to hear others....and it isn't about protecting traders as others keep suggesting for some odd reason.
Well I don't want to go in detail but the problem here is exactly CREATED BY FRONTIER.
Shieldboosters
Shield cell banks
HR Packages
MR packages
and every single stack-able thing the game has to offer is PLAIN BAD FOR THE GAME.
To a point that a HRP is more IMPORTANT than your BULKHEADS
Or yours shield booster can generate an extra 120% of your main shield.
The problem that most people dont see is that the only one to BLAME is Frontier themselves.
If they remove All Of it or make it that you cant repeat modules more than twice. then the game would be MUCH MORE balanced.
But heck no... lets make traders(cargo rack stacking) face off against Murderers (HRP e SCB stacking).
That's totally doable.
So next time you think about it remember that. Frontier made this.
I believe that was an alternative solution rather than restricting slots.
OK so as not to keep second guessing OP's intention what is wrong with having a slot or two that are designated for non military use? It would allow an assasin/bounty hunter build to at least compete and play the game. To compete at the moment you need to fly one of a couple of ships with very specialized loadouts. The idea here is at least for me to encourage combat pilots to PVP combat during/whilst playing the game instead of always simply waking knowing they stood no chance.
Guide to protect a Type-7 from PvP ganks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QCWTDpFChk
My Python build is both PvE and PvP capable. It's not top of the line for any of both but it gets the job done and that's what matters.
The build is similar to this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dQCY76eRVg
Who wants, can.
"The Git Gud Guide to Trading in Open" by Rinzler.
Last edited by a moderator:
Certainly you are not going to entice some into open and that was nicely illustrated and pretty funny.
CG's are a good idea to, especially the splinter group part.
I think there are or could be ways to encourage PVP combat to reduce the number of wakes detected.
Leveling at little would help and I'm not talking about traders, it's pretty hard to take down a cutter already.
Wasn't talking about traders or ganking but I'll watch it anyway since you took the trouble to post it.
I believe there was a post earlier regarding a python.
I'll recommend it to anyone that wants to trade in open....but it still doesn't seem to be a means to encourage PVP combat though.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yep, this is the evidence that a PvE ship can also do PvP.