How to stop the cheats?

Based on what you quoted.....The issue is the lack of clarification.
-What exactly does that quote mean without clearly defining what rules they are referring to (lacking cited link)
-What exact words did you use to ask the question?
-Did you describe it or did you let them watch a video recorded of the situation?


I gather that you are interpreting their response but the danger in how you're sharing it with us is... its only from your opinion, that they are saying "You are right".

I read it and honestly would say....
That's not what they are saying, they are communicating a few things also not communicating a few things.

“We fully encourage you to continue reporting any behaviour of this kind and absolutely agree with you, it's cheating.”

(Agree with what behavior exactly and how do they define cheating) and why is it misspelled?


“Our stance on PvP is that you are allowed to kill any player, at any time for any reason (or no reason at all in some cases). Assuming that combat confirms to the rules of the game, then it’s fair game. In group play, the admins of the group are free to set and enforce their own rules.

(O K so its only fair game if "combat confirms to the rules of the game" - What exactly are the rules of the game and where are these rules posted?)


So below if you want, go through all the info and links but what happens is we end back where we started.....there is absolutely no clarity so when they say or write things like the above, its ambiguous. What exactly are they referring to and where is it laid out. Can we all get access?

As a result, players are taking it upon themselves to create their opinions of what the rules are OR the extreme of.....hey man, the rules is....there are no rules. Really....that's what we are to believe.....then how the heck did you come up with the reply that some one else is cheating?

Honestly, you cant say in one breath its all fair game and then another....they are cheating when there isn't any third party or software manipulating anything. Combat logging would seem to be fair game just as reporting combat logging could be cheating. See how ambiguous that is?


Reference 1:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/359320/discussions/0/385429254945501417/ or go here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=237761

We wanted to reiterate some examples regarding the rules of Player harassment
. If a player has been blocked from a private group, or a group/individual has taken every step possible to remove a player from their gameplay, then attempting to circumvent this in any fashion is a serious offense and action will be taken accordingly. Attempting to re-establish contact with an individual who has blocked a player through secondary accounts or other methods of attempting to evade the block are against the rules. Action can and will be taken against both the accounts in question and the main accounts of players that we deem to be harassing players through this method.

In addition taking action such as seeking out and targeting specific players purely for the purpose of being disruptive, to cause offence, or to upset players within the community can also be considered harassment. A perfect example of this is deliberately attempting to disrupt public livestreams such as the charity ones mentioned before. This includes, but is not limited to, the capturing of footage and releasing it publically in an attempt to create upset or gain notoriety through the actions listed above.

We have previously stated, and it remains true, that Frontier are not able to manage group specific rules. Players considered to be breaking these group rule sets as established by group moderators should be removed from those groups by said moderators. In addition, running a livestream in Open does invite the potential for players to approach and impact your gameplay and running a livestream in which you are declaring war on another group and they come and take action against you is reasonable and should be expected.

Ultimately it’s about context.
The support team can and will review these kinds of offences and will be taking action against accounts that set their entire purpose on harassing players and groups in this way. They are currently investigating a number of incidents and will be dealing directly with any parties involved.

The Frontier Support team take the protection and safety of the community very seriously, they strive to ensure that the game remains fair and friendly. If you feel the need to report an incident, please do get in contact with support via our support site at
https://support.frontier.co.uk
- please include as much detail of the event as possible.

You can see a copy of the rules that everyone signs up to by creating an account, including harassment, here:
https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/


Reference 2: https://www.frontierstore.net/code-...17.1014631732.1512745993-257947935.1507309178

Reference3:
: https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/gameplay/

Combat

Arm yourself. It's a cutthroat galaxy out there, and you'll need combat skills to survive.
Why buy cargo when you can pirate it from a fellow Commander? Why explore distant systems when the data can be stolen? The galaxy is filled with vulnerable pilots, but The Pilots Federation takes care of its own.
Commanders who go rogue will accrue a bounty from The Pilots Federation, making them fair game for a would-be bounty hunter in Elite Dangerous' connected galaxy.
Combat, alone with Trading, Exploration and CQC offers progression to the rank of Elite. Rogue Commanders, assassination missions, or paid wetwork from one (or all) the galactic superpowers can bring wealth and respect.
https://www.elitedangerous.com/_media/ranking-elite.png Combat offers direct progression to the rank of Elite.


The quote he provided has done the rounds before and tbh it seems clear cut to me. So the wall of text that you provided that tries to pick it apart wasn't really needed. Surely that quote answers everybody's concerns about whether PvP is aloud no matter the situation.

I don't PvP btw, I've been killed for no reason but I haven't cried about it. Just carried on as usual. I don't particularly like it but thats the rules then fine. If I didn't like it I'd play in private or solo, it really is that simple.

Pretty sure this thread is gonna get closed soon, it's certainly toxic in here
 
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I had reported a guy for combat logging and asked if it was cheating, it’s really as simple as that.

The second part should have been ‘as long as combat conforms to the rules of the game, ie. not logging (cheating).

As for the harassment part, that’s referring to pg. where members of a known criminal faction were infiltrating a non pvp pg and slaughtering everything. On that note I agree, that’s harassment.

Anyway, would you mind staying on the original subject, of how to bring a halt to those willing to break the rules in order to gain an advantage.
 
Based on what you quoted.....The issue is the lack of clarification.
-What exactly does that quote mean without clearly defining what rules they are referring to (lacking cited link)
-What exact words did you use to ask the question?
-Did you describe it or did you let them watch a video recorded of the situation?


I gather that you are interpreting their response but the danger in how you're sharing it with us is... its only from your opinion, that they are saying "You are right".

I read it and honestly would say....
That's not what they are saying, they are communicating a few things also not communicating a few things.

“We fully encourage you to continue reporting any behaviour of this kind and absolutely agree with you, it's cheating.”

(Agree with what behavior exactly and how do they define cheating) and why is it misspelled?


“Our stance on PvP is that you are allowed to kill any player, at any time for any reason (or no reason at all in some cases). Assuming that combat confirms to the rules of the game, then it’s fair game. In group play, the admins of the group are free to set and enforce their own rules.

(O K so its only fair game if "combat confirms to the rules of the game" - What exactly are the rules of the game and where are these rules posted?)


So below if you want, go through all the info and links but what happens is we end back where we started.....there is absolutely no clarity so when they say or write things like the above, its ambiguous. What exactly are they referring to and where is it laid out. Can we all get access?

As a result, players are taking it upon themselves to create their opinions of what the rules are OR the extreme of.....hey man, the rules is....there are no rules. Really....that's what we are to believe.....then how the heck did you come up with the reply that some one else is cheating?

Honestly, you cant say in one breath its all fair game and then another....they are cheating when there isn't any third party or software manipulating anything. Combat logging would seem to be fair game just as reporting combat logging could be cheating. See how ambiguous that is?


In the end its a situation where...Fdevs aren't taking responsibility but trying to appease everyone circumstantially.

Reference 1:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/359320/discussions/0/385429254945501417/ or go here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=237761

We wanted to reiterate some examples regarding the rules of Player harassment
. If a player has been blocked from a private group, or a group/individual has taken every step possible to remove a player from their gameplay, then attempting to circumvent this in any fashion is a serious offense and action will be taken accordingly. Attempting to re-establish contact with an individual who has blocked a player through secondary accounts or other methods of attempting to evade the block are against the rules. Action can and will be taken against both the accounts in question and the main accounts of players that we deem to be harassing players through this method.

In addition taking action such as seeking out and targeting specific players purely for the purpose of being disruptive, to cause offence, or to upset players within the community can also be considered harassment. A perfect example of this is deliberately attempting to disrupt public livestreams such as the charity ones mentioned before. This includes, but is not limited to, the capturing of footage and releasing it publically in an attempt to create upset or gain notoriety through the actions listed above.

We have previously stated, and it remains true, that Frontier are not able to manage group specific rules. Players considered to be breaking these group rule sets as established by group moderators should be removed from those groups by said moderators. In addition, running a livestream in Open does invite the potential for players to approach and impact your gameplay and running a livestream in which you are declaring war on another group and they come and take action against you is reasonable and should be expected.

Ultimately it’s about context.
The support team can and will review these kinds of offences and will be taking action against accounts that set their entire purpose on harassing players and groups in this way. They are currently investigating a number of incidents and will be dealing directly with any parties involved.

The Frontier Support team take the protection and safety of the community very seriously, they strive to ensure that the game remains fair and friendly. If you feel the need to report an incident, please do get in contact with support via our support site at
https://support.frontier.co.uk
- please include as much detail of the event as possible.

You can see a copy of the rules that everyone signs up to by creating an account, including harassment, here:
https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/


Reference 2: https://www.frontierstore.net/code-...17.1014631732.1512745993-257947935.1507309178

Reference3:
: https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/gameplay/

Combat

Arm yourself. It's a cutthroat galaxy out there, and you'll need combat skills to survive.
Why buy cargo when you can pirate it from a fellow Commander? Why explore distant systems when the data can be stolen? The galaxy is filled with vulnerable pilots, but The Pilots Federation takes care of its own.
Commanders who go rogue will accrue a bounty from The Pilots Federation, making them fair game for a would-be bounty hunter in Elite Dangerous' connected galaxy.
Combat, alone with Trading, Exploration and CQC offers progression to the rank of Elite. Rogue Commanders, assassination missions, or paid wetwork from one (or all) the galactic superpowers can bring wealth and respect.
https://www.elitedangerous.com/_media/ranking-elite.png Combat offers direct progression to the rank of Elite.


You want context? Here's your context:
Original email: https://imgur.com/UaIu2vE
FDev's response: https://imgur.com/rHYxdH7
 
The answer is simple: remove the rebuy for pvp.

The main reason people combat log is because of the rebuy. The main reason people 'grief' is to cause people to have a rebuy since thats the only quantifiable result of pvp currently. Theres no real actual rewards or other purpose for it in game currently besides, 'because I can do it' and a flimsy 'roleplay' dynamic.

I'm not against pvp or the right for people to do it. But having pvp in a game with a penalty for the loser and no other point to it is kind of a recipe for bad behavior.

I would like to see Frontier actually do something better with pvp and give it a real purpose. Maybe incentivize pvp with a ranking system with rewards of some sort (maybe cosmetics or pvp only engineers with rank requirements) that has a scale based on fighting people with equal or better rankings. Being high ranked and killing lower ranked people would lower your ranking. this might at the least incentivize pvpers to fight each other more instead of just ganking people.


At the very least have a contested zone system in open where ganking has consequences. In civilized systems with governments and police, killing someone unlawfully should be a major crime.

Then make areas like Hazres, Anarchy systems, systems with compromised nav beacons as enter at your own risk areas. If you get killed in these areas you knew the risks and the rebuy applies. They could even incentivize these with bigger risk/rewards for entering them.
 
The quote he provided has done the rounds before and tbh it seems clear cut to me. So the wall of text that you provided that tries to pick it apart wasn't really needed. Surely that quote answers everybody's concerns about whether PvP is aloud no matter the situation.

I don't PvP btw, I've been killed for no reason but I haven't cried about it. Just carried on as usual. I don't like it but if thats the rules then fine. If I didn't like it I'd play in private or solo, it really is that simple.

Pretty sure this thread is gonna get closed soon, it's certainly toxic in here


-The quote doesn't say anything that wasn't already being argued by differing opinions is the point.
-There is no list of rules so everyone will continue to argue and fdevs will continue to reply to appease the complainer but never clarify the rules.

Not sure about your comment regarding toxic comments but I may have skimmed over some...shrug I hope my replies aren't considered toxic. Its definitely intended for discussion and so far those quoting me and me back....I think we are all being respectful to each other.
 
The quote he provided has done the rounds before and tbh it seems clear cut to me. So the wall of text that you provided that tries to pick it apart wasn't really needed. Surely that quote answers everybody's concerns about whether PvP is aloud no matter the situation.

I don't PvP btw, I've been killed for no reason but I haven't cried about it. Just carried on as usual. I don't particularly like it but thats the rules then fine. If I didn't like it I'd play in private or solo, it really is that simple.

Pretty sure this thread is gonna get closed soon, it's certainly toxic in here

Thank you sir, even though you don’t like the fact it happens, you seem to stand behind what the dev’s say. For this I applaud you.
 
BlackSmurf

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-The quote doesn't say anything that wasn't already being argued by differing opinions is the point.
-There is no list of rules so everyone will continue to argue and fdevs will continue to reply to appease the complainer but never clarify the rules.

Not sure about your comment regarding toxic comments but I may have skimmed over some...shrug I hope my replies aren't considered toxic. Its definitely intended for discussion and so far those quoting me and me back....I think we are all being respectful to each other.

I'm a neutral here. These type of threads have been around since I've been here atleast (2ish years). Open is open, everything is fair game within the rules of the game. To me that means no outside mods/hacks. This was a problem early on with some shield hacks. You can open fire on anything ingame if you wish to do so, be it NPCs, Thargoids, other CMDRs, a rock, even a star if you really wanted to. They are rules of the game. When you play any game there isn't really rules to follow, it's more what the game mechanics allow you to do and as long as you stay in them (no outside hacks etc) then there doesn't need to be a list of rules.

The toxic comment wasn't aimed at you, I should have said, my bad :p . And as you say we're debating right? As I stated at the start of this post, I'm a neutral or devils advocate :p
 
The forum is the new "open" because "open" is becoming empty for gankage via blocks and PGs. These threads are the new ganks.

Open is truly Day-Z survival mode. Anyone that tells you otherwise is selling you something.
 
You want context? Here's your context:
Original email: https://imgur.com/UaIu2vE
FDev's response: https://imgur.com/rHYxdH7


Thanks for sharing and let me pause.....I don't want to cause you to get upset with me. I am seeking to fully understand your point as well as the context to which this is all being discussed under so THANK YOU for sharing.

from your photos:

1. Your first question is phrased to them asking what punishment would apply to someone breaching the EULA and using exploits which you suggest as combat logging.

(in their reply it doesn't appear any exploits are being used per your second question with #2)
-Their reply is the typical corporate reply we cant give u details on how we handle punishing others....BUT...they do say combat logging penalties are silent and that no one would go shouting from the roof tops if they received a combat logging action.

2. Your second question is asking them about Save & Exit and within this you comment that it isn't considered logging.

(So here is appears that Save & Exit is not defined as combat logging)
(Separately the discussion is about the developer design of Save & Exit where you confirm that its not combat logging. You provide a solid explanation and ask point blank...."is it fair for player groups to frown upon this action and is Fdevs going to be taking a look at the Save Exit mechanic to dissuade people from using it as an "Approved" logging mechanic.?"

-They go on to say....How you and others perceive the actions of other players is entirely up to you. They give a good example next and in their example they say that another player "may think that any player who forces them to initiate PvP combat is wrong for doing so. They aren't of course, but its the perception which is relevant in this case."

O K...so initiating is O K but what falls under interpretation of each? They do confirm initiating isn't wrong but it could be wrong based upon the individual. Again they just aren't taking a side so there isn't a right or wrong element.....?????

I have to stop and pause there because I think this is what we are hoping to discuss openly.
So... to me....

You want them to make it wrong but they have said using Save & Exit isn't wrong. So unless they are doing something else....that can be proven, this would mean to me that it isn't combat logging.
So that takes care of one point.

3. About reporting players....pretty straight forward
4. Asking for features to be adding to support a gameplay style you like.....skipping that
5. You ask Does Frontier condone non-consensual PvP in any instance?

(That is what you quoted above....)

-So in context to the actual exchange.....

1. They aren't cheating at all using Save & Exit
2. They say in one breath its fair game and the next its based upon player interpretation or what I comprehend as we aren't taking a side.

So....all I've been pointing is it what exactly you just proved. They aren't clear and everyone will continue to argue their side because the official response is "How you and your friends perceive the actions of others is entirely up to you"......"
Our stance on PvP is that you are allowed to kill any player, at any time for any reason (or no reason at all in some cases). Assuming that combat confirms to the rules of the game, then it’s fair game. In group play, the admins of the group are free to set and enforce their own rules.
"
 
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NewBlacksmurf says combat logging isn't cheating and I'm the one that's hard to take seriously? Haha!

Look folks, Open Play ain't some cesspool of violence and death. You can do a lot of things there that don't involve combat (I know, I do that stuff too). Do it all in Open only and you'll have a richer, more rewarding game experience. Private Group and Solo are fine, of course, but they are just not the same thing.
 
Ok folks, this thread has taken a left turn at some point and has not come back on track.
My OP was done to discuss how to stop people logging. Regardless of what happens up to the point of logging. It’s still logging.
Now could we discuss how this would be stopped? I’m looking for ideas (sensible ones) or elaborate on a idea that’s already out there.
 
Ok folks, this thread has taken a left turn at some point and has not come back on track.
My OP was done to discuss how to stop people logging. Regardless of what happens up to the point of logging. It’s still logging.
Now could we discuss how this would be stopped? I’m looking for ideas (sensible ones) or elaborate on a idea that’s already out there.

Tougher consequences and transparency from FDev on how loggers are punished would be my vote. The community was made quite aware of what happened when the engineering bug was fixed, why shouldn't that same communication be applied to the consequences of logging? The more people that know what could happen, in addition to just how bad that could be, the less we'd see logging. Made the result of it worse than losing X Cr with a rebuy.

That being said, I do understand why people don't like non-consensual PvP. So why not make a rebuy cost reduction (that only applies to PvP) that scales with the combat rank delta between the attacker and victim? There are already systems in place that scale payouts for multi-crew in the same way, so I would think it wouldn't be that monumental of a task to implement.
 
Aye, sorry Megatron.

Some context real quick: from my experience public shamming doesn't work. The logger has no reason to stop logging once they're branded and too many groups use combat logging to just undermine the person unfairly. Even if they've reformed, the video or other evidence comes up constantly almost regardless of context or appropriateness.

I think player groups have a huge responsibility in this area. Generally speaking, two tenants:

1) Calm, private shamming of combat loggers. 'One strike and you're out' kind of stuff should be very clearly part of the group's culture.

2) Education and training to remove the need to combat log.
 
2) Education and training to remove the need to combat log.

For your second point here. Some dashingly handsome individual has already set up a social media page designed exactly for this purpose. It’s geared towards new people with some of the most experienced players at the helm and they are all willing to help, for the purpose of educating about the game, as anyone that’s played knows that it’s got a savage learning curve. It’s also there to train people on how to get away/avoid unwanted situations. Even to the point where the experienced players are willing to give a one on one tuition.

As for your first point. Most respectful factions don’t tolerate a single log from their members. If they are found to have logged, they’re out and all ties are cut.
 

Deleted member 110222

D
What ridiculous trash. :rolleyes:

Many of you avoid open because you want a power fantasy: an open galaxy without any meaningful challenge, or dare I say, true player interaction. You don't want to risk losing, much less actually dealing with defeat. Fact of the matter is you aren't very good at the game so instead of rectifying that you take to the forums and shame folks for disagreeing with your small little worldview.

Open is hardcore mode.
Private is play with your friends mode.
Solo is play by yourself mode.

There's plenty to go around for all of us. Enough with shaming Open players!

Solo & PG are fine you say, Phisto?

This earlier post of yours indicates that you have nothing but contempt for those who choose to play differently to you.

Which is it?

;)
 
You're reading contempt, regarding private and solo, into where there is none. shrug

Wanna show Megatron some respect and get back to the topic at hand, or not?
 
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