HTC VIVE PRO

[Exigeous]

I'll be the first one to cheer and buy one if the 8K version isn't the horrible piece of junk the 4K one is - the only thing I can do it go off my own, personal experience with the company and their former products. Put it this way - if I told you that Yugo was making a comeback and bringing out a luxury car would you believe any hype around it or would you be extremely skeptical of claims they made? Everything in the 4k model, everything was total crap - why would I expect or believe that a new model would be dramatically better? While the CV1 was a clear improvement over the DK2 it, nor the DK1 was junk like the Pimax 4k is.

So you guys can go ahead and keep drinking the coolaid but what given how horrible their first brew tasted I think I'll wait until it's proven to be even remotely excited by it. I love how you keep implying you somehow know more than I do about this when you've never used a single Pimax product and I'm not even sure you've used a Rift or VR at all - so who's talking about something they don't know about?

It is nice to see Pimax attempt to address my biggest issue with VR, the tiny FOV. We'll have to see if they can get games to add the support needed for the extra FOV, if they do and they can meet their claims again I'll be ordering one myself. But once you drive a Yugo you have no interest in driving one again.

Never heard about this before, so they already got a 4K model for sale, anyone knows if it works with ED?

Yes, the Pimax 4k exists right now and as I've stated, and many others will agree, it's total crap compared to the Rift. If you're looking to buy a headset right now the tech leader is the Samsung Odyssey as it has the highest resolution OLED panel money can buy. The Vive Pro will match it for resolution and panel when it comes out but doesn't use the far easier inside-out tracking that the Windows MR headsets do. That said I'd want to do a good bit of testing with the new Windows devices as they are very new and somewhat unproven. There is a thread here about the Odyssey and it was rather positive, I've been considering getting one but wanted to wait to see what would get announced at CES this year. Now that HTC has underwhelmed IMHO I'll wait a bit longer to see what Oculus is going to do but they've been pretty clear in the past not to expect a new headset anytime soon. That said I'd guess by the end of the year they'll have a new offering but I doubt it'll be full 4k.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I'll be the first one to cheer and buy one if the 8K version isn't the horrible piece of junk the 4K one is - the only thing I can do it go off my own, personal experience with the company and their former products. Put it this way - if I told you that Yugo was making a comeback and bringing out a luxury car would you believe any hype around it or would you be extremely skeptical of claims they made? Everything in the 4k model, everything was total crap - why would I expect or believe that a new model would be dramatically better? While the CV1 was a clear improvement over the DK2 it, nor the DK1 was junk like the Pimax 4k is.

So you guys can go ahead and keep drinking the coolaid but what given how horrible their first brew tasted I think I'll wait until it's proven to be even remotely excited by it. I love how you keep implying you somehow know more than I do about this when you've never used a single Pimax product and I'm not even sure you've used a Rift or VR at all - so who's talking about something they don't know about?

It is nice to see Pimax attempt to address my biggest issue with VR, the tiny FOV. We'll have to see if they can get games to add the support needed for the extra FOV, if they do and they can meet their claims again I'll be ordering one myself. But once you drive a Yugo you have no interest in driving one again.

I have an Oculus Rift. I have also asked you to do your homework before replying which you just don't do. There are a ton of reviews out there, which as I said, I will go by instead of someone who has never used one. As I have watched all the reviews, then yes I probably do have more information then you do, as I did my homework and did some research.

Pimax doesn't need to get games to support it. It all works through steam vr and is already supported in most games, ED, project cars 2 etc all work with that FOV without the developers needing to do anything.

I also suggest you have a look through the Pimax 8k thread i these forums as it will tell you all you need to know including through the lens videos of ED and other games and loads of reviews.

Not too sure why you are being so obnoxious about it.

 

[CylonSurfer]

I have an Oculus Rift. I have also asked you to do your homework before replying which you just don't do. There are a ton of reviews out there, which as I said, I will go by instead of someone who has never used one. As I have watched all the reviews, then yes I probably do have more information then you do, as I did my homework and did some research.

Pimax doesn't need to get games to support it. It all works through steam vr and is already supported in most games, ED, project cars 2 etc all work with that FOV without the developers needing to do anything.

I also suggest you have a look through the Pimax 8k thread i these forums as it will tell you all you need to know including through the lens videos of ED and other games and loads of reviews.

Not too sure why you are being so obnoxious about it.

I'm yet to see a video that shows any actual elite dangerous game play on the device other than the one set in deep space... Suspicious in my eyes. Through the lens shots won't show you much in terms of how the FOV looks while wearing the headset. There is a lot of skeptism surrounding the Pimax which I think is completely understandable, they can't even nail down the final specs yet and tell buyers that it'll run at 90Hz... There is a huge risk with backing the product at this time, you may never even get one and if you do it may not even have the specs people thought it would.

I hope everything turns out peachy for everyone that backed the Pimax but I wouldn't be to optimistic at this stage, the delays have already begun. Time will tell I guess.

 

[heretowatch]

What's the use of arguing like this? I think we should all realize that dogmatism is not the way to go when we're talking about technology that's still very much in its infancy.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I'm yet to see a video that shows any actual elite dangerous game play on the device other than the one set in deep space... Suspicious in my eyes. Through the lens shots won't show you much in terms of how the FOV looks while wearing the headset. There is a lot of skeptism surrounding the Pimax which I think is completely understandable, they can't even nail down the final specs yet and tell buyers that it'll run at 90Hz... There is a huge risk with backing the product at this time, you may never even get one and if you do it may not even have the specs people thought it would.

I hope everything turns out peachy for everyone that backed the Pimax but I wouldn't be to optimistic at this stage, the delays have already begun. Time will tell I guess.

I'm not going by just that. People have played ED on it and while the black are not as black, the difference was minimal according to them. Yep Kickstarter is always a risk, but they have it raised another huge amount of cash, so pretty sure they can produce a good product. As to the specs, the only issue is the refresh rate on the 8k. Possibly to do with the upscaler as the 5k which pretty much identical apart from lower res screen doesn't have the issue.

 

[kiario]

I Think its not very meaningful to argue if the primax 8k is good or bad at this Point.
Some say the image is phenamonal some say its garbage.

So that puts it somehwhere in between

Anyway, its more or less speculation at this Point since no one here has tested it with elite.

I think the main worries with the primax are,

The lcd panels not as good as the oled panels.
Not as smooth and ghost free as the rift(90hz)
Distorted image at the edges.

I can live with inferior quality feel/build and cheap plastic feeling if it performes fantastically

 

[Exigeous]

What's the use of arguing like this? I think we should all realize that dogmatism is not the way to go when we're talking about technology that's still very much in its infancy.

In general your correct, my original point was about the Vive Pro anyway as I think it's a yawner of an announcement given the Samsung Odyssey is already out at the same specs and will likely be cheaper given HTC's historically very high pricing.

I think the main worries with the primax are,

The lcd panels not as good as the oled panels.
Not as smooth and ghost free as the rift(90hz)
Distorted image at the edges.

I can live with inferior quality feel/build and cheap plastic feeling if it performes fantastically

LCD will never compete with OLED for VR as no matter how fast it is it will have ghosting and the blacks won't be anywhere close (I have an LG OLED TV and I can tell you from experience the difference is enormous). As for the inferior quality plastics/build that's part of how it performs - if it has amazing panels (which it doesn't) a cheap cable, cheap plastic, cheap headstrap, cheap faceplate (just as they all are on the 4K and 5K headsets) absolutely factor into the experience. VR is far far more than just 2 image panels strapped to your face.

Again I hope it's fantastic as they've done a good job ticking all the boxes. The 200 degree FOV is the biggest upgrade for me but if past performance is any indicator of future potential, and in virtually every case it is, then I have little hope it'll be more than Kickstarter junk and the only thing it'll get right is ticking various boxes.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I Think its not very meaningful to argue if the primax 8k is good or bad at this Point.
Some say the image is phenamonal some say its garbage.

So that puts it somehwhere in between

Anyway, its more or less speculation at this Point since no one here has tested it with elite.

I think the main worries with the primax are,

The lcd panels not as good as the oled panels.
Not as smooth and ghost free as the rift(90hz)
Distorted image at the edges.

I can live with inferior quality feel/build and cheap plastic feeling if it performes fantastically

As the screens have already been reported to be ghost free and not have any distorted images at the edges (the reason why some people experienced it was because of the lack of IPD adjustment) and reported that the colours are great and that black levels are adequate by people who have used It, I have my hopes high. I can only go by what people have actually said about the product.

Saying that I am very interested to see what people say about Pimax 8K v5 at CES.

As to the 90hz, the delivery has been pushed back to try to fix that with a hardware upgrade. But even if they get to 85hz I'm sure that will be adequate.

As to the quality of the headset, again people thought the prototype was of high quality, good plastics.

But we shall see. They could all be wrong.

Technology has moves on with LCD displays, with low persistence versions which are in the 8k which eliminate the ghosting which people saw in the pimax 4k.

Some of the windows mixed reality units also use low persistence LCD panels with no ghosting.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

LCD will never compete with OLED for VR as no matter how fast it is it will have ghosting and the blacks won't be anywhere close (I have an LG OLED TV and I can tell you from experience the difference is enormous). As for the inferior quality plastics/build that's part of how it performs - if it has amazing panels (which it doesn't) a cheap cable, cheap plastic, cheap headstrap, cheap faceplate (just as they all are on the 4K and 5K headsets) absolutely factor into the experience. VR is far far more than just 2 image panels strapped to your face.

Again I hope it's fantastic as they've done a good job ticking all the boxes. The 200 degree FOV is the biggest upgrade for me but if past performance is any indicator of future potential, and in virtually every case it is, then I have little hope it'll be more than Kickstarter junk and the only thing it'll get right is ticking various boxes.

It's almost as if you think the oled panels in the rift or vive doesn't have ghosting.
Which I assure you they do.

In fact it's so signficant that Oculus runs by default at a less than black, black level making the rifts Oled panels, vive has to do something similar as well, so in effect they seem like a decent VA panel rather than actually OLED panels as well as doing some gnarly math and predrives pixel shifts to reduce the ghosting as things move.

And new LCD panels are exceedingly faster than they where just two years ago.
Heck I remember a time when one would never consider LCD capable enough for gaming compared to CRT monitors, and for a few years, sure that was the case, didn't take long though.

In short the end results with the new high response LCD's vs OLED's are starting to get a lot more points in the LCD column than the OLED column.
For starters, as mentioned since they need to pre drive pixels, especially for the on\off contrast cases they never actually use the true black feature of OLED, not without the user employing registry tweaks manually to do so.
So there goes the black level argument for 99% of the users.

No pentile structure on the LCD screens, pentile is essentially a sub-pixel layout causing us to have half the resolution avaible to us for red and blue pixels.
This is a reason for some being surprised the PSVR look even though it's got slightly lower res out of the gate, but it using a true RGB panel instead of something like GRGBG, and they only bother counting the green subpixels for reporting resolution.

Mura.
Another huge drawback to OLED and stems from the organic nature in the panels, some pixels will respond slightly differently to the same current resulting in either increased light output or lowered output, since the panels are organic, this will also change and degrade as the panels age.
This is also often mistaken as SDE btw.

Yields, still production yields on OLED are biowaste compared to LCD, mostly since so many panels fail the initial mura tests and other problems.

So what LCD's are looking like now is they are almost as black, as fast, has a complete RGB sub structure, (sure these exist for OLED as well, but cost would balloon) and very little mura noise and costs significantly less and has significantly higher resolution.

Sure I would love true OLED blacks, but this one benefit seem to come with several other significant drawbacks.

 

[Flimley]

At least someone has got the ball rolling re-upgrades and improvements.

Flimley

 

[Exigeous]

At least someone has got the ball rolling re-upgrades and improvements.

Flimley

Agreed, given the extreme amount of misinformation and complete lack of understanding of display technologies shown in this thread we should get back to discussing the, well admittedly boring Vive Pro. What I'm looking forward to is what Oculus is going to do - as they are currently the Mercedes of VR I'll stay away from the company selling rebuilt Yugos with a nice paintjob.

 

[Globusdiablo]

I thought this was the HTC Vive Pro thread?...

 

[Globusdiablo]

Here you go lads, some informed first impressions of the Pro:

https://www.roadtovr.com/ces-2018-vive-pro-hands-on-much-more-than-an-improved-screen/

 

[Alec Turner]

Here you go lads, some informed first impressions of the Pro:

https://www.roadtovr.com/ces-2018-vive-pro-hands-on-much-more-than-an-improved-screen/

Was just about to post that myself. Sounds pretty exciting. The price will be paramount I guess but I can't wait to hear first of impressions of Elite Dangerous in the new headset.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Was just about to post that myself. Sounds pretty exciting. The price will be paramount I guess but I can't wait to hear first of impressions of Elite Dangerous in the new headset.

I must confess to being slightly conspiratorial regarding the Samsung Odyssey being withheld from the european market, while the Vive Pro uses the exact same panels (from Samsung)... Has HTC struck a deal with Samsung I wonder? I know they aren't directly comparable (room scale), but the price difference will apparently be "substantial" especially on the european market.

same screens as the samsung "mixed reality" headset?

Indeed it is.

 

[imski]

https://blog.vive.com/us/2018/01/08...r-new-vive-pro-upgrade-wireless-vive-adaptor/

http://www.alphr.com/htc/1008130/ht...o-vr-headset-with-an-impressive-3k-resolution

Wireless with dual OLED 2880x1600 and Wigig base stations (30ft range)

Most interestingly https://uploadvr.com/ces-2018-hands-on-with-vive-pro/ "The system is expected to sell alongside the original Vive throughout 2018 and will be available in Q1 this year as an “upgrade” option."

 

[Exigeous]

...Sounds pretty exciting....

I'm genuinely curious, what do you find exciting about it? The upgraded displays are nice but you can get that today in the Samsung Odyssey. The larger tracking might be interesting for some but few will be able to make use of such a big space. You'll also need the 2.0 tracking bases which do NOT come with the headset at launch, nor do controllers. So really it's only an upgrade for those that own the current headset, which they won't be able to resell as they'll need the wands/bases they currently own. It's also much larger/bulkier than all current offerings (Rift/Odyssey) and while I haven't seen a weight listed yet (if someone has seen that please post) as it sure looks like it'll have to be heavier - certainly when you add wireless to it which, again if I'm right it doesn't include. Given the historically high price they've continued to charge, $200-$250 MORE than the Rift and $100 more than the Odyssey I don't see them selling this less than $800 - even if they get it to $600 that doesn't include the controllers or bases. The Odyssey also has an infinite tracking space due to it's inside-out tracking with no need for base stations to purchase down the line.

I just can't imagine why anyone would even be remotely interested in this unless it were priced $100 or more below all other offerings, and we know that won't happen.

...the Vive Pro uses the exact same panels (from Samsung)...

Where did you read that as I haven't been able to find that yet. It's likely true as almost all OLED panels are from Samsung or LG but is this fact or speculation? As for conspiracies, put down your tin foil hat, I can't see that being the case as it's far more likely they aren't launching in Europe due to supply chain issues. If a company can sell something somewhere and make money their going to do it.

 

[Alec Turner]

I'm genuinely curious, what do you find exciting about it?

To be honest I didn't know much about the Odyssey (certainly not that it had the same resolution as the Vive 1.5) so I was basically just excited about the prospect of a new headset from one of the two big main VR players where visible pixels and SDE were practically gone, the headset was more comfortable and just generally seemed to have a whole bunch of improvements on the original design (adjustment for glasses, volume buttons, better headphones, 2nd camera). I absolutely love my CV1 but, after initial rumours that the Vive was in trouble after the HTC sell-off, I'm still pleased to see that the VR business is alive and well and that improved hardware is very definitely on the way.

 

[rootsrat]

Sounds good!

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-vive-pro-vr-headsets-new-oled-display-is-a-huge-improvement/

 

[Exigeous]

To be honest I didn't know much about the Odyssey (certainly not that it had the same resolution as the Vive 1.5) so I was basically just excited about the prospect of a new headset from one of the two big main VR players where visible pixels and SDE were practically gone, the headset was more comfortable and just generally seemed to have a whole bunch of improvements on the original design (adjustment for glasses, volume buttons, better headphones, 2nd camera). I absolutely love my CV1 but, after initial rumours that the Vive was in trouble after the HTC sell-off, I'm still pleased to see that the VR business is alive and well and that improved hardware is very definitely on the way.

That's all totally fair - what I heard was "because I didn't know any better". I too absolutely love my CV1 and believe it far superior in every way to the Vive (weight/comfort, display, software, build quality, design) so I have very little interest in anything HTC. I'm *very* close to pulling the trigger on the Odyssey, just wish I could check one out in stores before ordering but there aren't any in my area at all. I too agree that upgraded displays would be awesome, that's my primary interest in the Odyssey as it seems to have a great design, similar to the CV1 and to my eyes far nicer looking than the Vive/Pro.

In fact I think I'll be ordering after I hit submit here so we'll see what I think early next week...

~X