HTC Vive/Rift scaling issue fix!

[Tiayviel]

+++ EDIT +++ Status: temporary incomplete solution; FDev is apparently working on a proper IPD fix!

Some VR CMDRs have been reporting that their bodies in the cockpit look as if of a kid, unproportional. This also applies to perception of cockpit size.

After testing I found out that it is related to the view perspective of your "virtual head" - the higher your viewpoint is, the smaller the body will feel. It doesn't scale since it is a part of the cockpit.
Changes in the viewpoint height even in small centimeters affect the pilot body size perception - so how you wear your HMD, head size, neck length etc impacts the distance/perception and cannot be unified for all players.

How to fix it?
By resetting your HMD position with your head elevated; rise a bit in your chair, press the HMD reset button, sit back down.
That way the "virtual head" will snap to the pilots neck in the risen position, but once you "slump" down in the chair your viewpoint will also lower making the perspective view of the body closer = bigger.
Doing the opposite (slump down, reset HMD position, straighten up) will make the pilot body look smaller.

Few tries should be enough to find the sweet spot fitting your personal perception while avoiding texture clipping as well.

 

[Globusdiablo]

...How to fix it?
By resetting your HMD position with your head elevated; rise a bit in your chair, press the HMD reset button, sit back down.
That way the "virtual head" will snap to the pilots neck in the risen position, but once you "slump" down in the chair your viewpoint will also lower making the perspective view of the body closer = bigger.
Doing the opposite (slump down, reset HMD position, straighten up) will make the pilot body look smaller...

I like it.

I suppose by that logic, one could also reset the HMD while sitting further back, thus moving back to your normal seated position would bring the side panels closer for easier reading?

 

[Tiayviel]

Yes, it works like that too.

 

[Magic Man]

But that just puts you in game view lower down in your avatar body, it's not altering the perspective/scale at all, it's just setting your default viewing position in your ship. You could take it to the extreme and view from the seat or view from the top of the cockpit (or possibly even outside the model)

Likewise, you could get up, walk to the back of the cockput and reset the HMD view there, then you're flying from way behind your seat. It's not altering the scale issue at all.

The issue (in the Vive at least) does seem to be related to the hight of the HMD but relates more to the height above the ground as set during setup, not the reset positon of your in game view.

I'm thinking that FD doesn't take into account the height above ground set during setup of the Vive, nor perhaps that seated/standing and roomscale setups are different.
If you think about it, no matter where your head (and therefore the view from the HMD) is with regards the setup is concerned, when you load into your ship your view is always placed on top of the avatar's shoulders. Possibly some incorrect calculation based on that difference going on.

 

[Tiayviel]

But that just puts you in game view lower down in your avatar body, it's not altering the perspective/scale at all (...)

Well.. putting your game view somewhere else definitely equals altering perspective, by definition even. That changes the perception of any object scale.
The point of view is the key to the problem here so yes, it alters the scale issue. Think about all the optical illussions that play around with perspective.
If you're a 210cm person a car will feel crampy but if you're a 150cm then the car will feel spacious. Same logic applies here, but because the body is a part of the cockpit the perception of it scales as well.

I agree that the the default virtual head position is set a bit off by the game. However for reasons given in initial post it might be hard to find a position that will make it perfect for everyone.
Slight shifting around in the chair is enough to require a HMD orientation reset so it's a tough nut to crack.

 

[Kapow]

Well.. putting your game view somewhere else definitely equals altering perspective, by definition even. That changes the perception of any object scale.
The point of view is the key to the problem here so yes, it alters the scale issue. Think about all the optical illussions that play around with perspective.
If you're a 210cm person a car will feel crampy but if you're a 150cm then the car will feel spacious. Same logic applies here, but because the body is a part of the cockpit the perception of it scales as well.

I agree that the the default virtual head position is set a bit off by the game. However for reasons given in initial post it might be hard to find a position that will make it perfect for everyone.
Slight shifting around in the chair is enough to require a HMD orientation reset so it's a tough nut to crack.

I would agree that your proposition alters the Point of View, but it doesn't fix the scale issue for me. It merely lowers my camera position to an unrealistically low area and as a result I get to see larger hands and feet, but they are unrealistically close now and I have almost no chest. Basically the camera gets placed somewhere where the neck should be which is what Magic Man was pointing out I believe.

Of course that getting closer to an object will make it larger , but it doesn't fix scale or it's true perception, simply makes objects closer to my eyes, thus makes them larger, but still out of proportion. I've been troubleshooting this issue with Frontier Support and thus far no actual fix. I'm sure that some will appreciate a "Zoomed" look so few things look a bit larger, but it doesn't fix the scale.

Thank you for sharing though.

 

[Sanderson]

I would agree that your proposition alters the Point of View, but it doesn't fix the scale issue for me. It merely lowers my camera position to an unrealistically low area and as a result I get to see larger hands and feet, but they are unrealistically close now and I have almost no chest. Basically the camera gets placed somewhere where the neck should be which is what Magic Man was pointing out I believe.

Of course that getting closer to an object will make it larger , but it doesn't fix scale or it's true perception, simply makes objects closer to my eyes, thus makes them larger, but still out of proportion. I've been troubleshooting this issue with Frontier Support and thus far no actual fix. I'm sure that some will appreciate a "Zoomed" look so few things look a bit larger, but it doesn't fix the scale.

Thank you for sharing though.

The scale or perspective in ED is correct. The problem is perception not scale. The distances and speeds used in ED are not what humans are used to or capable of. So things "seem" out of scale. IRl, the forces in ED, relative to speed and distance, would kill a person. Our brains are tricking us into thinking things are smaller than what they really are.

 

[Tiayviel]

It merely lowers my camera position to an unrealistically low area and as a result I get to see larger hands and feet, but they are unrealistically close now and I have almost no chest. Basically the camera gets placed somewhere where the neck should be which is what Magic Man was pointing out I believe.

That sounds like putting it too low, for me it's enough to nudge it a few centimeters. Look at your shoulder how close it actually is in real life when you twist your head; aiming for the same height in-game is a good reference point.
But again, yes, VR is very much about subjective perception. Not saying this is an ultimate solution, but certainly a quickly adjustable workaround compared to e.g. running room setup over and over.
What I think would help is if the body were snapped to the head and "followed" it to a certain degree, like in many VR titles available.

The scale or perspective in ED is correct. The problem is perception not scale. The distances and speeds used in ED are not what humans are used to or capable of. So things "seem" out of scale. IRl, the forces in ED, relative to speed and distance, would kill a person. Our brains are tricking us into thinking things are smaller than what they really are.

That I partially agree with - most of things are new objects for our brains to digest. Adjusting to new objects in real life also changes perception (remember how BIG a 24" monitor was at the beginning?).
But in this particular case we have a mix of that and a human body which we are familiar with.. or not. If say a 100kg person is playing and the body design is of a 70kg then already there is a misperception on a whole different level.
Confusing stuff.

 

[jojon]

(EDIT: The below was in response to Sanderson. There came another post while I typed it, though. :7)

Except the perceived scale *is* correct when viewed in a Rift CV1. I have both a Vive and a Rift and have seen the difference myself.

I wish I could ever get my Vive back from repair, so I could test OP's claim, and see the alleged effect, but really; Moving the camera should only do just that: move the camera - not affect scale, and if it really does: then something is seriously wrong.

 

[Tiayviel]

Let me explain it in pictures:

Is pretty much how the camera position change works in VR. Or Alice in Wonderland drinking the tiny and giant potions.

 

[jojon]

Forced perspective tricks do not work out of the box in stereoscopic 3D. (EDIT: Unless you're one-eyed)

 

[Tiayviel]

Why? .

 

[jojon]

Because you have depth perception and can tell that Bilbo is really standing a few metres behind Gandalf; Not right next to him. You need to tweak binocular separation to counter this.

 

[Tiayviel]

Having depth perception doesn't make you impervious to perspective tricks; take an example of magnetic hills, Ames room.
The mechanism of the POV change here is simple; if something becomes closer to you (pilot body), it feels bigger. At the same time another object (cockpit frame) becomes more distant, making the cockpit feel larger.
With our own eyes there is a limit to how close we can bring an object before we stop seeing it sharp. We also switch focus on near and far objects. VR doesn't have that (edge blurring) and that changes depth and perspective perception.

Still, how much it affects the user is probably very subjective.

 

[jojon]

Perspective tricks are absolutely real, and our depth perception relies on numerous cues, including, as you say, accomodation, but they do not apply here. We're close-range, in a small, well-defined, regular, and easily perceived space.

For the the body to appear closer and the cockpit farther, you'll need to mess with mismatching field of view, and/or interpupillary distance.

Again: This problem does not occur with the Rift - only the Vive.

 

[Zmidponk]

Having depth perception doesn't make you impervious to perspective tricks; take an example of magnetic hills, Ames room.

Those are examples of particular, unusual patterns that fool eyes and/or brains, either by chance or deliberately designed that way. What we are dealing wth here is reasonably common shapes, patterns and objects that simply look smaller than they're supposed to.

The mechanism of the POV change here is simple; if something becomes closer to you (pilot body), it feels bigger.

No, it feels closer. I can get the effect you're talking about in real life, with my own real life body, by scrunching down my neck and hunching my shoulders. If I'm playing on my Vive, if I sightly misalign my virtual head, it simply looks and feels like my still child-sized avatar is doing this in-game, for some reason. In contrast, using my Rift, I need to do no such misalignment to get an avatar that looks and feels roughly the right size to be an adult, in a natural posture.

 

[Kapow]

Those are examples of particular, unusual patterns that fool eyes and/or brains, either by chance or deliberately designed that way. What we are dealing wth here is reasonably common shapes, patterns and objects that simply look smaller than they're supposed to.



No, it feels closer. I can get the effect you're talking about in real life, with my own real life body, by scrunching down my neck and hunching my shoulders. If I'm playing on my Vive, if I sightly misalign my virtual head, it simply looks and feels like my still child-sized avatar is doing this in-game, for some reason. In contrast, using my Rift, I need to do no such misalignment to get an avatar that looks and feels roughly the right size to be an adult, in a natural posture.

+1, Can't rep anymore due to favoritism rules, but the above is spot on

 

[Tiayviel]

Thanks to your explanations I *think* I'm starting to understand the issue here - the eye camera spacing. Because pictures explain better: http://xkcd.com/941/

So while the VR lack of object focusing + POV change (initial post "fix") might be enough to fool on a certain level it doesn't really change object size perception. As you say, it just moves the camera to a different point.
Meaning: if this way of fixing were to be fully functional, the whole head would have to "shrink" - most importantly the spacing between "virtual eyes" has to get reduced to achieve an increased perception of surroundings size.

Would be nice to get a slider to test how that theory would work in game.
Waltz of the Wizard (free on steam) has this mechanism - when you cast the Giant spell it just puts the camera higher in the room + spaces out eye cameras more and you really suddenly felt like a giant in the room.

 

[jojon]

There used to be an IPD setting in the... hang on... There is apparently *still* an IPDAmount setting in "(User path)/AppData/Local/Frontier Developments/Elite Dangerous/Options/Graphics/Settings.xml".

This used to be active back before Elite properly queried the VR device driver stack for the user's InterPupillary Distance; Wrong scales in ED were rife when playing with Oculus DK1 and DK2, back then, pre 1.0 driver.

I'm off to work and do not have time at the moment, nor have access to my Vive right now, nor do I know whether the entry on my hard drive is only a remnant from older versions, but I guess one *could* try messing with the value (it's in metres -- maybe even see what happens if one remove the entry altogether), and see whether that does anything for a Vive owner.

 

[StiTch]

You could take it to the extreme and view from the seat or view from the top of the cockpit (or possibly even outside the model)

Third person ED confirmed.