I can't believe what adding little details into a game does to adding immersion.

[2plex]

This. I agree with the sentiment of the OP - but remember GOF has been in development for a few years. But absolutely right, once all those little details are in ED it will be amazing.

Patient (or rather impatient) since Beta1 (almost 1.5 years back), but nothing much has come up in this regard.
FD didnt even change the generic station greeter messages to reflect your standing.
It very much seems as if the dont give a damn, as long as they can have us drive around on empty, barren, lifeless planet surfaces for extra money.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Over the weekend I decided to install Galaxy on Fire 2 on my mobile and after playing it the weekend I realise that even this game, designed as an app for mobiles, has better atmosphere and immersion that ED... and that's just plain wrong.

It started me thinking what sucked me into the GOF universe that the ED universe can't get right and I think it's the little details. For instance:

- the history of your character. You feel drawn into his storyline, even if it is simplistic, it's at least something to care about.

I have a history of my character, going back to before she was born. I don't need to be told what her history was.

- equipment naming and description. None of this generic Class 3 gimbal laser that does 1.x more damage than the next generic pulse. Each weapon in GoF2 has its own name and a brief blurb about the weapon. Look at the description for the Niral Impulse EX 2 laser cannon.. or the E2 Exoclad armour - the most basic armour and yet it others to tell you that in a proper description.

I agree, but the lack of unique equipment doesn't stop you from having more personal equipment you install. Personally, I like to record where I get the components of my ship from. Currently, my Cobra carries quite a few components purchased in Crook Hub in the Toolfa system, following my participation in the Buckyball Run "Bump and Grind" race. In the end of the day, a 3C power distributor is the same wherever you purchase it, but recording this information helps give my ships some character. Most players in the game would care less, and I for one would rather have them flesh out the game systems, than flesh out details 95% of the players will ignore anyways.

- Different background screens that give the illusion of actually being inside a space station and not confined to the chair of your ship... always. Click on the space lounge, hangar, and although it's just a different screen and click it gives the illusion that I'm actually outside my ship and I can use my imagination (tm), the enduring catchcry of the white knighters, to place myself in various aspects of a space station.

I prefer to wait until my character can actually get up out of her seat. As it is, I'd prefer the outfitting screen be a schematic projected in the cockpit of my ship, not a 3rd person view. Especially for the internals components of my ship. I'd like to know where the class 4 equipment bays are in my Cobra as much as I want to know what's installed in them.

- 90's style pics of faces for NPC's. Even this basic method added to the personality and immersion of the game. Instead of this bulletin board style of getting missions. It adds a personal touch

I'm hoping they'll come with Horizons. Until then, I'm content with what we have now. I'd rather have them do it right the first time.

I enjoy ED and would love it to expand and to add some more life and personality to their universe. I'm sure that FD are aware of this but still don't understand why, given that one of the main criticisms of the game is immersion and depth, that they haven't given this a top priority.
Driving around a procedurally generated terrain is just another way of exploring procedurally generated content in our ships. The game needs more character, depth and personality.

In a sandbox game, its up to the player to give personality to their game. The game provides the sand, and its up to the players to bring their toys to the box.

 

[mmm]

GoF2 really is a great game.

I was Super skeptical about getting it when it was released on Steam/PC because it was a mobile port; but they did improve the visuals, added gamepad support ( somewhat ), and overall it actually feels like a huge chunk of space to explore..with "geographical" markers that accent this...rather than in ED where it is just implied that the universe is huge ( since every system just feels like the same random empty chunk of supercruise real-estate as the last one. )

I don't think ED benefits from being overtly "empty" in regards to linearity or markers to always go to. To me, it seems like a "lazy-man" approach to game design. "It's vague and empty because.... its immersive and realistic!" 'We don't hold hands' feels like code-word for 'We didn't want to bother with as much effort' . You can obviously go too far in regards to shepherding people through a game ( for those that don't enjoy that kind of thing ) , but the absence of context or instruction...does not equate to being immersive, challenging or rewarding. It's just a lack of context or instruction.

You can lead a player into progressing through the game, without creating neon lights and TomTom arrows for them to follow.

It's like the difference between a game like Terraria, and a "Terraria-like" game of Edge of Space or Darkout. One game allows you to choose your way, to explore and play in a sandbox of linear-lite progression. The others...went with the absolute sandbox approach and pretty much forced themselves into awkward tutorials because of how empty the game is of direction or reason. There's a philosophy of "explain through gameplay, not via narrative" that holds true in gaming. A good game design / story explains itself; but you can't just force it on the user.

ED has the right idea behind its "vague openness" , to where the players should be able to experience trial and error and/or figure out things for themselves. The problem, is that it's designed to just drop a kid off in the jungle with a spoon in the middle of the night... and explain / premise this with nothing. And when the particulars of the game, once found out, don't actually reward the player for their due diligence. Things like super cryptic module / ship statistics , Hud Information inside the ship, how / where things interact with missions / factions / events, etc.

In the end, the game is just a super lazy / "insider only" designed game in the lure of "Simulation" and nostalgia. There's no way any game would get away with how its designed like this other than because of great marketing and a fanbase that bequeaths you to be "super nerdy" about the game mechanics ..or "get better".

I've put in a lot of enjoyable hours into the game, and an equal amount of "?" Picardface. I don't hate the game outright, or even remotely, but it is super painful to see it in "all its glory".

This.

+rep

 

[lysan]

I understand OP, that being said ED is a huge undertaking, and it will take time to get it all right.

I could also make a huge list, and we know that the Devs also have a huge list. This game will take years to complete if ever possible.

I enjoy the basic game, and when ED:H is ready we will have even more to do.

 

[Garbarrage]

Same experience as the OP. Never been one for "immersion" in games. Just like games that take some skill and doing some pew pewing, but the level of detail draws me in. Even a mate from another space shooter, who is fairly grounded to the point of sarcastic cynicism (lol) greets me with "Evening Commander" etc upon logging in.

Currently playing with a mouse and keyboard. Which I'm surprised (thanks to BlackMaze's video) is actually working just fine, but going to get a stick or HOTAS to add to the detail.

Although, the long hyperspace loading times ruin it a little. I have faith it will be fixed before too long though.

 

[snoob]

I've noticed a trend that I'm going to comment on, since it seems to be rampant.

Giving a narrative inside a sandbox isn't handholding, or spoon feeding. A narrative can be injected without disrupting the sandbox nature of the game, they are even doing this now with the galaxy news. Which you most certainly are spoon fed a wall of text. This text has very little bearing on your experience day to day, and as far as I can tell has very little meaning in the actual universe. (wall of text is just contextualized to sound like a narrative inside the universe)

A sandbox is only as powerful as the tools given to create a personal and meaningful narrative. If I cant create a personalized character, with a personalized ship, that appears to other players as such, the tools aren't there.

Arguing that you can "create your own story" doesn't jive, since you currently cannot create your own story. There is no way to personalize yourself, your ship, or your experience - EVERYONE has a similar story, nothing makes you unique compared to other players. (profession, ships, ship skins, major faction and rank. thats it!)

Focusing on credits isn't how you should play... Credits are the entire game. They built the game around the ships, and the money to purchase or upgrade said ships. The only way to do this is with credits. You can claim "if you're doing it for the credits you're not having much fun" ALL DAY, it doesn't change the fact that when semantics are pushed aside, credits are the game - and the ships are the endgame. I can easily counter argue that if you're NOT focusing on credits then you're wasting your time in a game that not only defines timesink, but treats your time within it like its somehow beneficial to the dev team for you to spend this time.

Its clear to me that this game has alot of different fans, from many genres. Sim fans are content with what they have, while others wish to be further whisked away into a narrative or meaningful experience that has a cause and affect in universe. Even more, there is a consistent split of online and offline play. Some expect you to deal with the harsh realities of the universe by forcing yourself to play open and all the player interactions that come with it (by all I mean, either make friends, kill, or die). There clearly isn't a right answer or FDEV would have provided it.

The upcoming addition of the "crafting" system is an indication that they aren't sure how to remedy this problem. They are taking shots in the dark to increase enjoyment across the board. Crafting is currently popular in gaming, and so they are adding crafting. Similarly to how quick arena style shoot em up matches are common, so they added cqc. They are reaching to increase consumer and playerbase, and are just as frustrated as the rest of the community on how to successfully do it. Not to mention other similar games are coming into the fold and fighting for market space. No Mans Sky will absolutely test the resolve of the dev team, and the player base. They know this and have been attempting to play catch up with certain mechanics in this game since launch.

 

[anikaiful]

- the history of your character. You feel drawn into his storyline, even if it is simplistic, it's at least something to care about.
- equipment naming and description. None of this generic Class 3 gimbal laser that does 1.x more damage than the next generic pulse. Each weapon in GoF2 has its own name and a brief blurb about the weapon. Look at the description for the Niral Impulse EX 2 laser cannon.. or the E2 Exoclad armour - the most basic armour and yet it others to tell you that in a proper description.
- Different background screens that give the illusion of actually being inside a space station and not confined to the chair of your ship... always. Click on the space lounge, hangar, and although it's just a different screen and click it gives the illusion that I'm actually outside my ship and I can use my imagination (tm), the enduring catchcry of the white knighters, to place myself in various aspects of a space station.
- 90's style pics of faces for NPC's. Even this basic method added to the personality and immersion of the game. Instead of this bulletin board style of getting missions. It adds a personal touch

Well, what comes to those... all the points are IMHO, and not speaking for anyone else than myself.

*) a bio editor, at most. Any history which is not crafted by me for myself from scratch isn't an appealing option.
*) variety in descriptions per location bought etc, a nice touch (even if didn't per se affect the weapons/gear in other ways at all). A smart enough generator with proper sized pool from which to craft the descriptions and we'll pretty much have unique descriptions for each bit and piece, and future pieces too.
*) eh, no - no backgrounds - think about the VR users. For 2D monitor, sure... but VR? Nope.
*) we're getting character generator and such, shall see what all can be stemmed from that - something more lively than 2D faces, that's for certain. If added to missions, etc - awesome. I'm not against retro-looks though either

But in general, little things can have a huge impact - ED does have a genius soundscape design (for most part), it could excel in other fields too (given time).

 

[Alec Turner]

- equipment naming and description. None of this generic Class 3 gimbal laser that does 1.x more damage than the next generic pulse. Each weapon in GoF2 has its own name and a brief blurb about the weapon. Look at the description for the Niral Impulse EX 2 laser cannon.. or the E2 Exoclad armour - the most basic armour and yet it others to tell you that in a proper description.

Was it Skyrim where you could give names to weapons? Had an axe called "The Red B*stard" ... god I loved that axe

 

[Deleted member 38366]

When it comes to representation and building a Player attachment to Actors or the Storyline, I remembered one thing :

The death of the Emperor was a pretty big item, presumably on Frontier's "Big Storyline".

Noting that, I realized the following things :
- up to this date, I don't even know how the old Emperor looked like, never seen him (!)
- I haven't seen a single Image of any of the Story Events (even the major ones), only the GALnet placeholder background Images... let alone any footage (i.e. a recreated scene using in-game Graphics)
- I have never seen any effects of the Storyline when being inside any of the supposedly affected Systems. Regardless of what supposedly happened there, the Systems were 100% normal all the time. No signs of anything different.
(the Cerberus plague Outbreak closing down some Station Services was the 1st and only exception AFAIK)

------------------
And that's my biggest gripe with the entire Storyline and GALnet representing it.
All we have is 1980's style ASCII-only Storyline progression (the UA mystery being the sole exception) and all key actors in the Story are either ASCII-only (i.e. the old Emperor) or represented by a single(!) Image that is being 100%-recycled all over the place.

For me - that doesn't cut it by a lightyear. Not for a Title that is being played in the year 2015.

It's really lacking animated cutscenes/stories (GALnet) with actors that act and have a voice, using in-game Graphics.
And most importantly, I have to be able to witness the results of any GALnet story whenever I travel into an affected System.

Personally, for me - if it ain't there to be at least passively observed by me in my Ship, it simply doesn't exist. Fake news I call it then.
That's the main reason I completely ignore the Storyline for the time being.
And looking back, traveling through any System after the long Storyline progression we already had... feels 100.0% the same like a year ago. No signs of any storyline-related changes anywhere, no effect to be seen outside of the general changes valid for all Systems anyway.

I really dislike that.

So for the time being, the Storyline (just like related GALnet entries) appears to exist mostly in an unconnected parallel Universe, with a complete disconnect from the "real world" one can travel in the Ship.
The UA and the Cerberus Plague remain the sole exceptions, at least that's something one can see and interact with to a limited extent.

 

[mmm]

So much sense in one topic! I'm running out of rep :/

 

[Ekar]

So for the time being, the Storyline (just like related GALnet entries) appears to exist mostly in an unconnected parallel Universe, with a complete disconnect from the "real world" one can travel in the Ship.
The UA and the Cerberus Plague remain the sole exceptions, at least that's something one can see and interact with to a limited extent.

Agree. It feels cheap that ED relies on a 'tell me' rather than 'show me' approach to events. If a system's been going through violent rebellion, let's see a bit of damage on the outside or inside of stations and the fixit crew going about their business. If economic hardship, lights flickering out, static in the voice comms and dodgy/slow connections to the station services, docking elevators getting stuck, etc. A big political encroachment from a nearby system... propaganda blaring at you to support this or that Power. Different government types? Show us what it all means. Show it through NPC behaviour and as many visual clues as possible. Even better, I'd love to see a station undergoing a gradual visual transition from a democratic style government to a dictatorial style government (example). Little clues that you could spot to inform you which way the wind was blowing.

 

[Riedquat]

Agree OP.

The little things can make all the difference, even some background text on the various minor factions would make it more immersive, just like the planet descriptions in the original game.

I hope the 'little things' will come in time, the game needs them.

 

[Katie Byrne]

When it comes to representation and building a Player attachment to Actors or the Storyline, I remembered one thing :

The death of the Emperor was a pretty big item, presumably on Frontier's "Big Storyline".

Noting that, I realized the following things :
- up to this date, I don't even know how the old Emperor looked like, never seen him (!)
- I haven't seen a single Image of any of the Story Events (even the major ones), only the GALnet placeholder background Images... let alone any footage (i.e. a recreated scene using in-game Graphics)
- I have never seen any effects of the Storyline when being inside any of the supposedly affected Systems. Regardless of what supposedly happened there, the Systems were 100% normal all the time. No signs of anything different.
(the Cerberus plague Outbreak closing down some Station Services was the 1st and only exception AFAIK)

------------------
And that's my biggest gripe with the entire Storyline and GALnet representing it.
All we have is 1980's style ASCII-only Storyline progression (the UA mystery being the sole exception) and all key actors in the Story are either ASCII-only (i.e. the old Emperor) or represented by a single(!) Image that is being 100%-recycled all over the place.

For me - that doesn't cut it by a lightyear. Not for a Title that is being played in the year 2015.

It's really lacking animated cutscenes/stories (GALnet) with actors that act and have a voice, using in-game Graphics.
And most importantly, I have to be able to witness the results of any GALnet story whenever I travel into an affected System.

Personally, for me - if it ain't there to be at least passively observed by me in my Ship, it simply doesn't exist. Fake news I call it then.
That's the main reason I completely ignore the Storyline for the time being.
And looking back, traveling through any System after the long Storyline progression we already had... feels 100.0% the same like a year ago. No signs of any storyline-related changes anywhere, no effect to be seen outside of the general changes valid for all Systems anyway.

I really dislike that.

So for the time being, the Storyline (just like related GALnet entries) appears to exist mostly in an unconnected parallel Universe, with a complete disconnect from the "real world" one can travel in the Ship.
The UA and the Cerberus Plague remain the sole exceptions, at least that's something one can see and interact with to a limited extent.

repped

this is absolutely the best summation of my problem with the 'storyline' delivery too. I mean, would it be so much to ask to have the news downloadable in a newsreader style narrated form? Something we could listen to while flying and that would also have some character/impression to it. Think Talk Radio on GTA. The powerplay characters could at least be given a video, even a short one where they give some soundbite that quickly outlines their philosophy (again could be presented as a news video or addressing their followers etc).

I've tried many times to get 'into' the storylines going on and powerplay but it's just so disconnected.

Its a shame that player factions are not planned to be supported. Player controlled factions would essentially be 'self generating' in storyline and would allow for actual meaningful wars/alliances/relations to occur.

 

[Katie Byrne]

If a system's been going through violent rebellion, let's see a bit of damage on the outside or inside of stations and the fixit crew going about their business. If economic hardship, lights flickering out, static in the voice comms and dodgy/slow connections to the station services, docking elevators getting stuck, etc.

Yes these are great suggestions, but how about this: Have conflicts AT stations. Let a faction attempt an armed assault on stations. It seems odd to me that wars for control never actually involve assaults on the stations themselves

 

[lysan]

Agree. It feels cheap that ED relies on a 'tell me' rather than 'show me' approach to events. If a system's been going through violent rebellion, let's see a bit of damage on the outside or inside of stations and the fixit crew going about their business. If economic hardship, lights flickering out, static in the voice comms and dodgy/slow connections to the station services, docking elevators getting stuck, etc. A big political encroachment from a nearby system... propaganda blaring at you to support this or that Power. Different government types? Show us what it all means. Show it through NPC behaviour and as many visual clues as possible. Even better, I'd love to see a station undergoing a gradual visual transition from a democratic style government to a dictatorial style government (example). Little clues that you could spot to inform you which way the wind was blowing.

Well I 100 % agree with you there, and I'm sure it will come at some point. They only made some simple damage modeling on a few ships, we need to have a damage model on all the ships, buggies, stations, outposts and what not is in the game. This would add a lot of immersion from the get go.

 

[Bacalao]

I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread, lot's of "we just want a few small details." My take on that is that the devil really is in the details. Here's the issue with ED over the other games in the series and other games out there. Let's say they throw in procedural planet descriptions, and something like from the old game pops in "this planet is home to a unique species of red spotted tree frogs, which are it's only animal inhabitants". What a lovely little detail, I like that so I make that my "home" system, a couple years down the road and we can now land and drive around all the billions and billions of planets in the galaxy. What's the first thing I'm likely to do? Go look for those little spotted tree frogs, and they had better be there! Now multiply that issue by a billion.
-
Because of the level of detail in ED they have to be very careful about seemingly simplistic details they throw in. It's a huge task to put descriptors on every brand/size/vendor of a pulse laser ("Hue Fong modifies the classic C2 pulse laser gimbals to lock on sub-sytems with extra accuracy, at the expense of range."), because if there is every a contradiction or inconsistency noticed (a likely occurrence given the number of systems- "Hue Fong modifies the classic C2 pulse laser gimbals, forfeiting subsystem targeting for ship targeting accuracy at increased range") FD are going to be crucified for it. Aside from that it would just be a huge undertaking to put in so many descriptions without them all feeling the same relatively quickly, putting no detail in some ways ignores the problem, and keeps from drawing attention to it until a robust system (crafting coming in season 2) can be introduced.
-
They could put cartoonish little faces, but I think PP has enough of that. I think it's a quality issue (like the character generator), I think we'll see them, but not until they are good enough. Same with station lobbies, I don't think FD is satisfied with having it be a backdrop, I think we'll get it when the quality is high enough that DB and MB are satisfied.
-
Does ED need more detail? Yes, but you have to understand the repercussions a "little" detail has on a game this big.

 

[JoeShmo]

repped

this is absolutely the best summation of my problem with the 'storyline' delivery too. I mean, would it be so much to ask to have the news downloadable in a newsreader style narrated form? Something we could listen to while flying and that would also have some character/impression to it. Think Talk Radio on GTA. The powerplay characters could at least be given a video, even a short one where they give some soundbite that quickly outlines their philosophy (again could be presented as a news video or addressing their followers etc).

I've tried many times to get 'into' the storylines going on and powerplay but it's just so disconnected.

Its a shame that player factions are not planned to be supported. Player controlled factions would essentially be 'self generating' in storyline and would allow for actual meaningful wars/alliances/relations to occur.

I was just thinking, wouldn't it be great if FD created little 5 sec video clip "soundbites" like out of Robocop. They need to Really personalize / sensationalize the Galnet info...rather than making it look like some poor blogpost on the internet.

 

[Krezan]

God, hoppe the journey gets a bit later. Just read they've nerfed smuggling. Pfft. Still would be nice to have more atmospherics in the game to give it a mood.

 

[Kristov]

When I first read the OP I was feeling like 'seriously, this is something to complain about?' but as I read more of the posts I realized something..

This IS something to complain about!

I was thinking as I was reading about other games I play and how they do things to give you some immersion in the game world. It's often little things, bits of info on weapons, armors, locations, just little things, some history, famous/infamous personages who've been/used/destroyed whatever, just little things here and there that make something a little less generic and a little more unique, without actually changing ANYTHING about the object in question. A pulse laser is a pulse laser, but when you get a little blurb about how this company makes it on a certain planet while another company makes their versions on a space station, each doing it that way because it does something special, but the actual ingame weapons are totally identical in appearance and function, just the names are different. It's a little thing, no change to the game mechanics at all, but it FEELS like they are different, unique, something that has a story behind it, not just another 'generic pulse laser'.

WoW, DDO, AoC, DAoC, EQ, UO, MWO, and on and on, they all do these little things to make the game world come alive a bit, put YOU, the player, into it by giving you some history about the world, and turn perfectly generic items that EVERYONE has into something unique without changing it at all.

Elite has lore and stories and history, so why the bloody hells aren't we SEEING that in the game? One of the complaints in MWO is that with SO much backstory, history and literally hundreds of novels, the GAME doesn't tell you jack about the BattleTech universe you are playing in. Piranha Games listened, realized the players were right, it's an extremely rich history, and they've started putting it into the game in little ways. It's far from great, but it's a start. FD needs to do the same, there's just SO much history in the Elite universe that it's a godsbedamned CRIME to not include it in the game in any way possible.