I do hope Season 2 helps Piracy - Today's experience just confirms to me it doesn't work very well...
- Thread starter NeilF
- Start date
Banana, you can't make trade ships equal to combat ships, unless you want everyone in the exact same ship? It simply doesn't work otherwise, so the traders will always be at a disadvantage to the combat ships. The meta can be changed every day, it won't change this simple fact.
As to pirates...
Funny thing about stealing, it's not a positive social interaction no matter how hard you try and make it one. It's a negative social interaction, you are taking something from someone else without their permission, be it through guile, stealth or force. Thieves aren't good guys, murderers aren't good guys, that's not how that works. I've been the bad guy a lot in online games, I enjoy it, it's fun to RP as the bad guy instead of the good guy, doing whatever strikes my fancy whenever it strikes and to hell with the consequences. I make no bones about it, I try to not outright grief people, I don't go after newbies, I don't kill someone repeatedly just because I can, and I'll let people go if they ask nicely...sometimes. I'm fully aware that my actions are anti-social however, and every now and again, I reinforce that through mindless destruction, killing someone after they've complied, or just killing them without asking for anything, because I am the BAD GUY!
Some people like being the victim once in a while, it's thrilling, it's exciting, gets the blood going, but you know what? They don't want to be the victim multiple times, it's not THAT fun after a few times. And the folks who think being the victim is fun usually stop thinking that when they end up looking at a rebuy screen at the end of the victimization. Some will want revenge, it gives them something to DO in the game suddenly, something new. But most folks just don't like it, it's not fun.
I'm aware of these things, I've been the bad guy, the good guy and the victim, and I never enjoyed being the victim all that much. Bad guys, well, when I'm playing them, I'm fully aware of the fact that I will be griefing other players at some point during our interactions, I'm the bad guy after all. Pirate, well, MOST of my interactions with other players will involve me griefing them in some fashion, stopping them without cause, taking their stuff without paying for it, killing them, taking them prisoner, ransoming them or selling them into slavery, yeah, NONE of those are positive social interactions, those are all grief causing actions. It doesn't matter what you say, how polite and nice you are, it's still grief causing actions.
And how much I made as a pirate, I'm not the first nor the last to say 3-5m an hour off NPCs, and that was pre 1.4, when we couldn't disable a ship by taking out it's power plant and before they upped the cargo NPCs carry. You interdict, scan the cargo, take it, sell it, profit, pure profit after the first victim or two. You don't go hunting down players, you take cargo ships, simple as that, ignore the rest, they aren't worth your time if you want to make a profit. Add in the occasional bounty on NPCs who belong to minor factions you don't support, it's easy, it's about as risk free as you can get, and it's boring as hell, not as boring as pure trading mind you, to me, but at the time I was doing piracy, I wasn't in a ship big enough to make more trading than I did pirating, so... It's profitable, it's risk free, and I didn't need human players to make it profitable, those saying they NEED human players to make a profit...well...already made my view on that clear.
As for my views on PvP, that has nothing to do with piracy, piracy isn't PvP, it's stealing by force or threat of force. PvP is where people WANT to fight each other, and I'm all for that, and I keep pointing out that anyone who actually wants PvP can get it all day, every day, by joining one of the many PvP groups in Elite: Dangerous. They just completed the first player run team vs team league and are about to do another one, and are looking at doing a 1v1 league as well. You want PvP, that's where you go, you don't become a pirate, especially not in a game where the odds of seeing another human player are on par with getting hit by lightening or having a supermodel ask you on a date.
Piracy is, by it's very nature, griefing others, there's no two ways about it folks. I don't care how you try to cover that up, make up and jewelry and dresses do NOT turn a pig into something else. I was fully aware of this fact when I was doing piracy, I'm fully aware of this fact when I'm looking at Star Citizen where my unit, SRM, will be playing as pirates, we're all aware of it. We're the bad guys, we've always been the bad guys, it's what we enjoy doing, and we know we will be griefing others in order to be pirates and do what we like to do. We also enjoy PvP and we do NOT try and make our piracy out to be PvP because it's not. PvP is when we find another pirate group to fight with for control of an area, or when we get a good guy group after us and we go toe to toe with them, THAT is PvP. Jumping on ships that can't defend themselves, that ain't PvP.
As to pirates...
Funny thing about stealing, it's not a positive social interaction no matter how hard you try and make it one. It's a negative social interaction, you are taking something from someone else without their permission, be it through guile, stealth or force. Thieves aren't good guys, murderers aren't good guys, that's not how that works. I've been the bad guy a lot in online games, I enjoy it, it's fun to RP as the bad guy instead of the good guy, doing whatever strikes my fancy whenever it strikes and to hell with the consequences. I make no bones about it, I try to not outright grief people, I don't go after newbies, I don't kill someone repeatedly just because I can, and I'll let people go if they ask nicely...sometimes. I'm fully aware that my actions are anti-social however, and every now and again, I reinforce that through mindless destruction, killing someone after they've complied, or just killing them without asking for anything, because I am the BAD GUY!
Some people like being the victim once in a while, it's thrilling, it's exciting, gets the blood going, but you know what? They don't want to be the victim multiple times, it's not THAT fun after a few times. And the folks who think being the victim is fun usually stop thinking that when they end up looking at a rebuy screen at the end of the victimization. Some will want revenge, it gives them something to DO in the game suddenly, something new. But most folks just don't like it, it's not fun.
I'm aware of these things, I've been the bad guy, the good guy and the victim, and I never enjoyed being the victim all that much. Bad guys, well, when I'm playing them, I'm fully aware of the fact that I will be griefing other players at some point during our interactions, I'm the bad guy after all. Pirate, well, MOST of my interactions with other players will involve me griefing them in some fashion, stopping them without cause, taking their stuff without paying for it, killing them, taking them prisoner, ransoming them or selling them into slavery, yeah, NONE of those are positive social interactions, those are all grief causing actions. It doesn't matter what you say, how polite and nice you are, it's still grief causing actions.
And how much I made as a pirate, I'm not the first nor the last to say 3-5m an hour off NPCs, and that was pre 1.4, when we couldn't disable a ship by taking out it's power plant and before they upped the cargo NPCs carry. You interdict, scan the cargo, take it, sell it, profit, pure profit after the first victim or two. You don't go hunting down players, you take cargo ships, simple as that, ignore the rest, they aren't worth your time if you want to make a profit. Add in the occasional bounty on NPCs who belong to minor factions you don't support, it's easy, it's about as risk free as you can get, and it's boring as hell, not as boring as pure trading mind you, to me, but at the time I was doing piracy, I wasn't in a ship big enough to make more trading than I did pirating, so... It's profitable, it's risk free, and I didn't need human players to make it profitable, those saying they NEED human players to make a profit...well...already made my view on that clear.
As for my views on PvP, that has nothing to do with piracy, piracy isn't PvP, it's stealing by force or threat of force. PvP is where people WANT to fight each other, and I'm all for that, and I keep pointing out that anyone who actually wants PvP can get it all day, every day, by joining one of the many PvP groups in Elite: Dangerous. They just completed the first player run team vs team league and are about to do another one, and are looking at doing a 1v1 league as well. You want PvP, that's where you go, you don't become a pirate, especially not in a game where the odds of seeing another human player are on par with getting hit by lightening or having a supermodel ask you on a date.
Piracy is, by it's very nature, griefing others, there's no two ways about it folks. I don't care how you try to cover that up, make up and jewelry and dresses do NOT turn a pig into something else. I was fully aware of this fact when I was doing piracy, I'm fully aware of this fact when I'm looking at Star Citizen where my unit, SRM, will be playing as pirates, we're all aware of it. We're the bad guys, we've always been the bad guys, it's what we enjoy doing, and we know we will be griefing others in order to be pirates and do what we like to do. We also enjoy PvP and we do NOT try and make our piracy out to be PvP because it's not. PvP is when we find another pirate group to fight with for control of an area, or when we get a good guy group after us and we go toe to toe with them, THAT is PvP. Jumping on ships that can't defend themselves, that ain't PvP.
What about jumping on ships that can defend themselves?
And anyone saying they made 3-5 off NPCs prior to 1.4 is lying flat out, you couldn't make 3-5mil off seeking weapons and they were guaranteed 140-210k per reset and was about as downright cheesy as you can get for a mechanic, you might JUST be able to squeeze 3 now if you get extremely lucky on cargo spawns, you might also make 100k if you get unlucky.
Of course what you take off NPCs is pure profit, the issue is pure profit of 20x grain is ~ 12k credits.
And no, Piracy is not griefing, because the objectives are different, do you know why griefing is called griefing? I'll give you a hint, its in the name, you can argue that some people take it extremely personally and it ends up as the same thing, but those people equally get "griefed" by every NPC in the game too.
There are people who take it personally, to them its griefing, there are people who really enjoy the gameplay, to them its a bonus thrill to whatever they were doing. That isn't justification it just is what it.
If your going to make it out to be a pig at least get the saddle on and ride it round or your missing the point.
And anyone saying they made 3-5 off NPCs prior to 1.4 is lying flat out, you couldn't make 3-5mil off seeking weapons and they were guaranteed 140-210k per reset and was about as downright cheesy as you can get for a mechanic, you might JUST be able to squeeze 3 now if you get extremely lucky on cargo spawns, you might also make 100k if you get unlucky.
Of course what you take off NPCs is pure profit, the issue is pure profit of 20x grain is ~ 12k credits.
And no, Piracy is not griefing, because the objectives are different, do you know why griefing is called griefing? I'll give you a hint, its in the name, you can argue that some people take it extremely personally and it ends up as the same thing, but those people equally get "griefed" by every NPC in the game too.
There are people who take it personally, to them its griefing, there are people who really enjoy the gameplay, to them its a bonus thrill to whatever they were doing. That isn't justification it just is what it.
If your going to make it out to be a pig at least get the saddle on and ride it round or your missing the point.
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This is true... but likewise a "Bounty Hunters" ship will (should) be superior to a Pirates...
Note: A trading ship could of course (with some models) be made a very hard nut to crack. ie: Uber shields etc etc..?
It's an interesting point. Without the threat of attack though, trading becomes (dare I say) dull, and Bounty Hunters have nothing but predictable NPCs to attack.
What is important here though is the term "griefing". Mindless, casual destruction of another CMDRs ship is undoubtably griefing, so if the game can instead reward "constructive" piracy, over "mindless piracy" surely that could be a good thing? ie: It's not in a pirates best interest to destroy another CMDR when stealing cargo from, but it is still in their best interest to steam cargo from them them. The tricky bit is working how to reduce/remove the threat of destruction as the prime reason for a trader to "play ball"... I'm sure people who are more familiar with piracy and its mechanics in the game could propose more logic suggestions than me on this!?
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We've been doing that for over a year
, collector limpets and not having them put in marked cargo are the only things we managed (to convince them to do anything about, not the only ideas)
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We've been doing that for over a year
Sorry, don't quite follow? I was suggesting proposed mechanics to make it less appealing for pirates to destroy their victims, while ideally also making it more appealing to just steal their cargo. Note: I get the impression FD's Crime and Punishment revamp might try to make CMDR destruction less appealing (at times)?
Are you refering to getting mechanics into the game we already had introduced?
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I'm referring to the fact that the forums been awash with solutions to crime and punishment since the game came out and the only thing piracy got was limpets
and yes limpets were an improvement because it made people who didn't want to scoop willing to take a wider cargo threshold, so at least in that way a small success.
and yes limpets were an improvement because it made people who didn't want to scoop willing to take a wider cargo threshold, so at least in that way a small success.
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So a bit of lovely anecdotal evidence, scanned every freighter for 15 minutes and didn't even take anything, here are the takes / black market revenues.
T9 - 218 bertrandite / 152 hydrogen ~ 400k
T7 - 27 Indite / 16 Limpets ~ 50k
T7 - 86 Pweapons / 30 Limpets ~ 288k
T7 - 9 Exchem / 10 Uranite ~ 30k
Now ignoring the fact you'd need a cutter to fill all that, and it'd take 30+ minutes to disable/scoop everything I really can't see how the same problem vanilla had isn't present, the P-weapons transport would have been considerable but realistically if we doubled that (which is generous) and said that was your take for the hour you'd make around 1.5mil, which is less than you'd take off 1 player in a big ship
I realise thats a small sample size i'll do a considerably longer run later just incase Kristov's right and they managed to buff pve piracy without anybody noticing but atm It really looks like same old same old to me.
T9 - 218 bertrandite / 152 hydrogen ~ 400k
T7 - 27 Indite / 16 Limpets ~ 50k
T7 - 86 Pweapons / 30 Limpets ~ 288k
T7 - 9 Exchem / 10 Uranite ~ 30k
Now ignoring the fact you'd need a cutter to fill all that, and it'd take 30+ minutes to disable/scoop everything I really can't see how the same problem vanilla had isn't present, the P-weapons transport would have been considerable but realistically if we doubled that (which is generous) and said that was your take for the hour you'd make around 1.5mil, which is less than you'd take off 1 player in a big ship
I realise thats a small sample size i'll do a considerably longer run later just incase Kristov's right and they managed to buff pve piracy without anybody noticing but atm It really looks like same old same old to me.
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I'm referring to the fact that the forums been awash with solutions to crime and punishment since the game came out and the only thing piracy got was limpets
and yes limpets were an improvement because it made people who didn't want to scoop willing to take a wider cargo threshold, so at least in that way a small success.
Understood... I also get slightly frustrated at the quantity of suggestions made, and the thought and effort that clearly goes into them, and then what seems to make it to the game...
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So a bit of lovely anecdotal evidence, scanned every freighter for 15 minutes and didn't even take anything, here are the takes / black market revenues.
T9 - 218 bertrandite / 152 hydrogen ~ 400k
T7 - 27 Indite / 16 Limpets ~ 50k
T7 - 86 Pweapons / 30 Limpets ~ 288k
T7 - 9 Exchem / 10 Uranite ~ 30k
Now ignoring the fact you'd need a cutter to fill all that, and it'd take 30+ minutes to disable/scoop everything I really can't see how the same problem vanilla had isn't present, the P-weapons transport would have been considerable but realistically if we doubled that (which is generous) and said that was your take for the hour you'd make around 1.5mil, which is less than you'd take off 1 player in a big ship
I realise thats a small sample size i'll do a considerably longer run later just incase Kristov's right and they managed to buff pve piracy without anybody noticing but atm It really looks like same old same old to me.
Christ! Earlier today I was only finding Hydrogen and Biowaste! You were doing well with that sort of loot
Note: And of course trying to take "everything" is a lot of work/time!
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...less than you'd take off 1 player in a big ship
And moire than you'd take off me, ya scurvy rat
If you demand enough cargo from me that you're gonna cost me all the profit from the run and more than my rebuy into the bargain, we gonna be shooting
Moderate your requirements and maybe we can strike a deal Jumping on ships that can defend themselves would typically done for PvP, not for cargo, because the risk/reward is skewed the wrong way if the ship can defend itself.
And if you really think that stealing another player's stuff isn't griefing in it's most basic form....wow. Piracy is indeed a profession we can engage in, but to think it's a positive profession and serves a positive social function, hubris. It's a negative thing, you force people to do what you want, regardless of what they want, from the moment of interdiction start to end of encounter, purely negative no matter how polite and dapper you are to the victim, they are STILL a victim.
I'm aware of this, I've always been aware of this as a bad guy and I've never tried to pretend that being the bad guy was anything but a negative thing for those who got to be my victims. No self delusion here, no need for them, I'm comfortable being the bad guy. I'd hazard a guess that you, and others who claim like you do that being a pirate isn't all that bad, aren't so comfortable with being the bad guy. Pirates grief others by their very nature, which is why FD has such a hard time making any rules about griefing, because if they do, well, can't be a pirate can you? I've pointed that out before, more than a few times.
As for making money off pirating NPCs, I'd suggest you go find another system to hunt in, that's what I did, moved around until I found good hunting grounds. Doesn't matter what the security in the system is like, they're easy to ignore or deal with as you see fit. What cargo is being moved through the system is what matters. Heavy mining systems are good, so are systems with high tech being exported/imported. This needs to be explained to you, seriously? What kind of pirate doesn't know this basic information?
Neil, considering that the FDL was a favorite of pirates in Elite lore...seems like pirates and bounty hunters both use the same ships in Elite.
And trading IS dull and boring without the threat of attack, and most traders want it that way, they don't want any danger to what they're doing. See the comments from traders playing in Solo complaining about NPCs attacking them if you don't believe me. That's why so many people do their trading in Solo, it's so much safer, even PvPers do that, because cargo ships ain't good for PvP no matter what you do, that's a fact.
What? You asked about jumping on ships that can defend themselves, not a smart move for a pirate, and not what a pure griefer is looking for either. Both have similar targets in mind overall, difference being the pirate isn't going to be after newbies, they won't have anything of value to steal. Griefer will go after any target that's not capable of self defense, newbie or T9, doesn't matter, easy kills either way, potential profit isn't a factor.
/facepalm
Minonian
Banned
There is a little error in your claims.
Let me ask you, who is the higher authority on a ship? The captain.
Now, who is the highest authority in the game? Lesse! The dev's The mod's and admins. They make the rules! And they are after numerous complaints from the part of the antisocials, like pirates and griefers, still not changing the menu combat logging right?
What this means? At first that logout menu with the 15sec counter is there with a reason. Its in harmony with their will. Right? And the reason is fair play. So, despite all of your numerous complaints and reasons, to give a weaker player a way to bail out, run away, is the right, the fair thing to do. But most of the anti socials are not giving you this right. They are not even think about it. Instead, they are calling you a cheater, a coward if you dare to run, instead to obey their wills and whims.
In the light of this, can you call it cheating? No, you cant! It's a rule!
They give you a not easy and immediately way to bail out, because the weaker players are need this against your average carrion eater natured grievers and pirates.
Only the weakest... But when they got a bounty hunter, or someone capable to defend itself and cause a real harm? They are turn their tail immediately!
Well said!
A big rep to you!Edit; But here is a question to you can you capable to held this tendencies within the border of game, and they are not "leaking" to your civilian life?
Because although i don't like this kind of behavior, furthermore, i have a strong feelings against it. Buts as the part of the game i can accept it's existence. But don't be surprised if you someone(s) off. there is consequences.
However? if you don't know how to separate game and reality?
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A griefer isn't after cargo, just easy kills, why does this need to be explained to you.
There is a little error in your claims.
Let me ask you, who is the higher authority on a ship? The captain.
Now, who is the highest authority in the game? Lesse! The dev's The mod's and admins. They make the rules! And they are after numerous complaints from the part of the antisocials, like pirates and griefers, still not changing the menu combat logging right?
What this means? At first that logout menu with the 15sec counter is there with a reason. Its in harmony with their will. Right? And the reason is fair play. So, despite all of your numerous complaints and reasons, to give a weaker player a way to bail out, run away, is the right, the fair thing to do. But most of the anti socials are not giving you this right. They are not even think about it. Instead, they are calling you a cheater, a coward if you dare to run, instead to obey their wills and whims.
In the light of this, can you call it cheating? No, you cant! It's a rule!
They give you a not easy and immediately way to bail out, because the weaker players are need this against your average carrion eater natured grievers and pirates.
Only the weakest... But when they got a bounty hunter, or someone capable to defend itself and cause a real harm? They are turn their tail immediately!
Well said!
Edit; But here is a question to you can you capable to held this tendencies within the border of game, and they are not "leaking" to your civilian life?
Because although i don't like this kind of behavior, furthermore, i have a strong feelings against it. Buts as the part of the game i can accept it's existence. But don't be surprised if you someone(s) off. there is consequences.
However? if you don't know how to separate game and reality?
People who can't separate reality and fantasy shouldn't be playing any games at all and should be probably be supervised at all times. Beyond that, well, I'm not a pirate in real life nor do I act like one in any way, I'm considered a good guy by most who know me, even my ex-wives won't argue on that fact, including the one who hates me.
Minonian
Banned
Than you understand this. sadly most people are not, and release their inner daemons within the wrong conditions, and in all the wrong places.
I had some problems about this, and also had some stupid verge of th R left friend whom did not had the slightest clue about the necessity, of self controll, and separation. I'm not going to say anymore, because i consider this as a personal matter. Lets just say its eneded up poorly.
About these kind of deluded SOB-s? They are have the same problem, what you mentioned about the idiots calling themself pirates and saying they have all rights, and they are the good guys. LOL?
Now, as a big player i can understand to not bring your grudges to the game / computer and not take with yourself, after you left the game.
And as an RGP player i understand why you try out multiple roles. That's keeps the game intresting.
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Just for the record i've literally never heard any pirate here describe them-self as a good guy, about the closest you get is some like to think they create interesting content, which with the right players they do, but the wrong players obviously not. The idea that they view themselves as good guys is literally chinese whispers that nobody even remembers the source for anymore.
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Because you need the term griefer explained to you, and the one for pirate and probably a whole host more while your busy trying to tell a group of players what their motivations are about an activity that you've admitted you've never even engaged in, I may as well say your motivation to play this game is 100% rabbits wearing pink Lycra it would be just as likely to be true.
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Because you need the term griefer explained to you, and the one for pirate and probably a whole host more while your busy trying to tell a group of players what their motivations are about an activity that you've admitted you've never even engaged in, I may as well say your motivation to play this game is 100% rabbits wearing pink Lycra it would be just as likely to be true.
Minonian
Banned
And this is where you are wrong! They are finding out all the stupid excuses to make their behaviour acceptable.
Don't... Just DONT!!!
This is a game, if you play the bad guy, than accept the role, instead of searching excuses.
Go find me a quote then of a pirate describing himself as a good guy, nobody makes excuses you've created a witch hunt for something that doesn't exist, and don't use Majinvash he only says anything to wind people up (because it works) I doubt for even a split second he considers himself "good"
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