I don't understand the logic behind the "rebuy is too expensive" shouts

[ilo]

Ah, assumptions. Such a handy tool to back up some claims. Reality is tough, let's make an assumption with a figure that proves our point.

Example from life - my last two days.
Having over 220M I decided to buy FDL. A-rated FSD, D-rated rest, smallest PP and cargo build with shields. No weapons (playing in Mobius, tho all non combat ships are weaponless). Current rebuy of hat build is slightly over 2.2M. After all purchases Iąm left with 186M. Pfft, 2.2M when you have 186, you may say. Well, I play to increase my wealth so I can afford better ships and equipment, not to blow credits for rebuys. So I set that 186M as a bottom line and will see how fast I can recover.

With 2.2M rebuy cost in mind I started doing delivery missions. Let's see how fast I can earn my rebuy. Two days ago I earned 1.5M, yesterday I got about 800k. About 2.3M in total, for two evenings of lazy delivering. Many stations I visit I'm allied with, yet missions are in 30-60k range. Math is simple, my chosen way of life requires two full evenings for a single rebuy of FDL. At this rate, covering my FDL purchase will be done in just under a month.

Now - any single mishap, failed interdiction escape, is a major drawback. Single rebuy is two evenings wasted.

and here I'm pirating megaships.. say what again about earnings?

 

[valbarr]

the earning power of the big ships, simply doesnt scale with the cost of them. so yes, to people who fly the smaller ships the rebuy doesnt seem that bad, but when your rebuy goes up to 50 million, you simply cant, make that rebuy amount back in anywhere near the same timeframe using the big ship. so it basically gets more time intensive to die in a big ship than a small one. which is obviously stupid.

 

[Jukelo]

so it basically gets more time intensive to die in a big ship than a small one. which is obviously stupid.

How so? If flying a big ship isn't supposed to be the norm for everyone, doesn't it in fact make perfect sense?

 

[ilo]

the earning power of the big ships, simply doesnt scale with the cost of them. so yes, to people who fly the smaller ships the rebuy doesnt seem that bad, but when your rebuy goes up to 50 million, you simply cant, make that rebuy amount back in anywhere near the same timeframe using the big ship. so it basically gets more time intensive to die in a big ship than a small one. which is obviously stupid.

When your ship's rebuy is 50M you should not die that often either, not to mention dying at all.

 

[Ziljan]

It's not that the Rebuy is too expensive for PVE, that certainly isn't the case. However for PVP, you don't earn much if any money unless you're good enough to kill professional killers. So the repairs ~(250k per fight with phasing) or rebuys (up to 50 million with the biggest ships) are a bit out of order with the rewards. Balancing risk and reward is gameplay 101. Sure I have well over a billion in the bank, but that money was earned via PVE grinding, which means that learning to PVP has a rather large PVE grind cost associated with it, which means that not only am I risking money, and am also risking time.

Look this isn't to say that I don't think the rebuy is worth the fun, but more just to explain the logic of why someone might say it's too high. It's not about absolute cost. It's about risk/reward and about the steep learning curve fee.

 

[ilo]

It's not that the Rebuy is too expensive for PVE, that certainly isn't the case. However for PVP, you don't earn much if any money unless you're good enough to kill professional killers. So the repairs ~(250k per fight with phasing) or rebuys (up to 50 million with the biggest ships) are a bit out of order with the rewards. Balancing risk and reward is gameplay 101. Sure I have well over a billion in the bank, but that money was earned via PVE grinding, which means that learning to PVP has a rather large PVE grind cost associated with it, which means that not only am I risking money, and am also risking time.

Look this isn't to say that I don't think the rebuy is worth the fun, but more just to explain the logic of why someone might say it's too high. It's not about absolute cost. It's about risk/reward and about the steep learning curve fee.

I'm ok with PVP, I'm not ok with only 100% combat PVP. This game is not only combat pvp and the best expression is that it lacks of combat pvp reward. That said, everyone is free to play the way they want, just don't try to change the game to what you just want (not looking at you, Ziljan, just a generic observation).

 

[verminstar]

When your ship's rebuy is 50M you should not die that often either, not to mention dying at all.

Just one little fly in that ointment...a pair of cobras fully engineered can bring down any one of the big 3.

When faced with that sorta reality, playing a game where it takes 2 or 3 full play sessions to make a single rebuy....playing in open doesn’t really make sense...

Someone wanna remind me the point of the thread? Ah ye silly me it’s about a pvpr trying to entice more targets to be happy and accepting of the rebuy...and hows that been going so far?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

People hate losing progress. Despite it being illogical fear in terms of video game, it is just how we are wired. Some people can shrug it off - like me - because I have experienced loss in real life and have learned how to cope with it and losing something in video game for me is just peanuts and entertainment. But it is demanding and sometimes very haunting skill.

It is same as discussions how everything is not up to scale in ED - people really just argue how they 'feel' about things. It is unavoidable, subjective. It is funny to discuss this though. I personally think rebuys should be even tougher.

 

[Vorxian]

The more common issue about rebuy costs being "too high" isn't usually a direct complaint about rebuy costs per se. It's more of an issue with ship costs (and therefore rebuy costs) scaling exponentially with increasing ship size while ship capabilities and earning potential only scale in a linear manner. That means that while an Anaconda can outperform a Python for many types of missions it isn't 2.5X as effective despite having a rebuy of around 20 million vs. only 8 million for the Python. Same issue with combat, a Corvette is not 4X as effective as an FDL despite the Corvette having a 30 million reuby vs. around 8 million for the FDL. This means that the risk/reward ratio for using larger ships actually decreases when they should actually be more efficient at those tasks given their costs. As a result I started using lower-cost ship options in "high risk" areas around CGs where I expected to be griefed and trolled frequently. I started using my Vulture at around 1 mil reuby instead of my FDL or Corvette for combat CGs and I started using my Type 7 at around 2 mil reuby instead of my Python or Type 9 for trading CGs. The risk/reward balance for those ships was much better than risking a larger ship, even though I might make less profits at least I wouldn't risk a net loss from having to pay multiple rebuys if I were griefed repeatedly.

There have been many suggestions on how to fix this but fundamentally the biggest problem is that FD doesn't seem to think players should be able to earn consistent incomes higher than around 10 mil/hr regardless of the ship or activity and eventually nerfs those activities into the ground.

I was going to write absolutely this... but since Devari hit the nail on the head, I'm just going to quote.

I trade in a Cutter, and regardless of the +/- 1bn price tag on the ship, it marginally out performs other ships in being a trade ship.

The problem that credit earning isn't progressive. One would expect profits from a significantly more expensive ship to be significantly more lucrative. In ED logic:

makes 12% more, and costs 100,000 times more than:

So ofc we'll moan about the rebuy, not everyone can foot an 85m bill every time you become someone content for 2 minutes, and if you do, how long does it take to get your 85m back?... hence why it's group or solo for many of us.

 

[Zelos1983]

Rebuy is often only a fraction of your loss (e.g. exploration data or mission profit) and also a small part of your running costs, even when flying expensive ships.

Nowadays it's so easy to get a lot of money that having money is only an issue at the start of the game. Don't know why people complain.

 

[verminstar]

I was going to write absolutely this... but since Devari hit the nail on the head, I'm just going to quote.

I trade in a Cutter, and regardless of the +/- 1bn price tag on the ship, it marginally out performs other ships in being a trade ship.

The problem that credit earning isn't progressive. One would expect profits from a significantly more expensive ship to be significantly more lucrative. In ED logic:



makes 12% more, and costs 100,000 times more than:



So ofc we'll moan about the rebuy, not everyone can foot an 85m bill every time you become someone content for 2 minutes, and if you do, how long does it take to get your 85m back?... hence why it's group or solo for many of us.

85m? Couple hours work according to all those who claim money is so easy to come by, its literally falling from the sky...

So how does that explain this thread existing at all? If credits were so easy to get, then why the complaints? Its a question they ask themselves...which means they dont really understand or comprehend the argumentand fall back on the ever popular ¨discrediting the claims¨ routine by claiming its easy and everyone else just needs to git gud...not in so many words but thats the gist of it.

To those people who claim money is easy...well obviously Im nowhere near as good as the true gamesmasters such as yerself, but I am a quick learner...so hows about putting yer money where yer mouth is and prove yer wild claims that credits are easy. Specifically, I wanna see a rebuy an hour...fer a top end cutter which doesnt have the jamesons 5% discount.

Because until I see it actually being done, Im gonna continue to assume its not actually true and its more a case of just trying to antagonize those with issues. If ye dont accept that others, less skilled and less able than the real experts like yerself, have a genuine issue, then the thread is meaningless and theres simply nothing left to discuss.

Enjoy hotel california fer another 5 years lads...ye had ye chance and blew it...back to solo it is then ^

 

[Deleted member 140600]

I would go farther, no rebuy option at all.

You die you loose. So stocked ships at shipyard would make more sense.

 

[Goose4291]

85m? Couple hours work according to all those who claim money is so easy to come by, its literally falling from the sky...

So how does that explain this thread existing at all? If credits were so easy to get, then why the complaints? Its a question they ask themselves...which means they dont really understand or comprehend the argumentand fall back on the ever popular ¨discrediting the claims¨ routine by claiming its easy and everyone else just needs to git gud...not in so many words but thats the gist of it.

To those people who claim money is easy...well obviously Im nowhere near as good as the true gamesmasters such as yerself, but I am a quick learner...so hows about putting yer money where yer mouth is and prove yer wild claims that credits are easy. Specifically, I wanna see a rebuy an hour...fer a top end cutter which doesnt have the jamesons 5% discount.

Because until I see it actually being done, Im gonna continue to assume its not actually true and its more a case of just trying to antagonize those with issues. If ye dont accept that others, less skilled and less able than the real experts like yerself, have a genuine issue, then the thread is meaningless and theres simply nothing left to discuss.

Enjoy hotel california fer another 5 years lads...ye had ye chance and blew it...back to solo it is then ^

Because people are idiots, who fly without rebuy.

 

[Zelos1983]

It's not that the Rebuy is too expensive for PVE, that certainly isn't the case. However for PVP, you don't earn much if any money unless you're good enough to kill professional killers. So the repairs ~(250k per fight with phasing) or rebuys (up to 50 million with the biggest ships) are a bit out of order with the rewards. Balancing risk and reward is gameplay 101. Sure I have well over a billion in the bank, but that money was earned via PVE grinding, which means that learning to PVP has a rather large PVE grind cost associated with it, which means that not only am I risking money, and am also risking time.

The game should not be easy and have consequences. Loosing your ship is not something that should happen on a regular basis (most of the time it's due to bugs anyway and you get a refund from customer service).

"Free" replacement ships should never be part of the game. People should stop demanding easy mode for everything.

BTW, as irl, "Killing" makes less money than trading, but that was also the core gameplay of previous games.

 

[c00ky1970]

I dont PvP, but I do see teh detraction for players who want to PvP being the rebuy.

My suggestion is that PvPers set their Report Crimes against me to "Duellist", if they attack another player then the losers rebuy is picked up by Pilots federation.

That way PvPers can blow the frap outta ships and not have to contend with doing non PvP stuff to get a rebuy. People "attacked" vy PvPers will get rebuy if the attacker is set to Duellist.

Everyone is happy??

 

[Unshackled AI]

I dont PvP, but I do see teh detraction for players who want to PvP being the rebuy.

My suggestion is that PvPers set their Report Crimes against me to "Duellist", if they attack another player then the losers rebuy is picked up by Pilots federation.

That way PvPers can blow the frap outta ships and not have to contend with doing non PvP stuff to get a rebuy. People "attacked" vy PvPers will get rebuy if the attacker is set to Duellist.

Everyone is happy??

So you'd trust gankers to voluntarily let their victims off without a rebuy? I wouldnt.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Because it’s not usually pythons people are losing and rage quitting/forum ranting about. It’s shieldless anacondas or cutters that people have rushed through every gold and rank mine they could find in order to buy one of these “best” ships as quickly as possible and bankrupted themselves buying and outfitting.

 

[verminstar]

Because people are idiots, who fly without rebuy.

Oh I absolutely agree...the term idiot can apply to more than just that though...depending on what side of the argument yer coming from. Then again, there is no argument because making credits is so easy apparently...so whats this thread about again?

Bribing players to be content fer others and ridiculing what the OP concludes is the reason why players avoid open. Like I said, hows that been working out so far? Its the same thing over and over...the same broken logic, the same arguments all while expecting a different result.

Isnt that the very definition of what it takes to be an idiot? Hotel california beckons...cos yer all trying to fix the wrong thing...again ^

 

[Goose4291]

Oh I absolutely agree...the term idiot can apply to more than just that though...depending on what side of the argument yer coming from. Then again, there is no argument because making credits is so easy apparently...so whats this thread about again?

Bribing players to be content fer others and ridiculing what the OP concludes is the reason why players avoid open. Like I said, hows that been working out so far? Its the same thing over and over...the same broken logic, the same arguments all while expecting a different result.

Isnt that the very definition of what it takes to be an idiot? Hotel california beckons...cos yer all trying to fix the wrong thing...again ^

Again I agree, but I dont think this is Hotel territory... yet. It's down to idiocy with a hint of selfish desire for 'easy mode' gaming.

Having ground out to a ship.they can afford, its amazing how many dont finish the job and grind out its fittings/a safety blanket.

Then on top of that, people want to helm the big 3 without consequences or drawbacks and know that if enough noise is made, there is a precedent that Frontier will cave to their demands. We've seen this with several times, particularly with repair, refuel and rearm costs being reduced to near negligible.

 

[Vorxian]

Oh I absolutely agree...the term idiot can apply to more than just that though...depending on what side of the argument yer coming from. Then again, there is no argument because making credits is so easy apparently...so whats this thread about again?

Bribing players to be content fer others and ridiculing what the OP concludes is the reason why players avoid open. Like I said, hows that been working out so far? Its the same thing over and over...the same broken logic, the same arguments all while expecting a different result.

Isnt that the very definition of what it takes to be an idiot? Hotel california beckons...cos yer all trying to fix the wrong thing...again ^

I agree to!
I still think the problem is that credits are actually very difficult to make legitimately. When I say legitimately, I mean not shirking mechanics or finding a ruptured water main urinating credits.

If one played the game, and did what mission givers rewarded, people would be earning a pittance in a linear cr income cycle. Many people really don't know that in some places ruptured water mains can be uncovered if you know where to look... others wait on reddit and jump on the next gold mine, which means income is spikey... very high one moment, and nerfed flat the next. Only legitimate incomes have a regularity, and very very poor if you're expecting to fund a cutter, let alone lose one. Lets face it legitimate incomes are very very scrooge in comparison. This needs to be addressed, or back to square one and get insurance costs reduced to compensate. Incomes really should support the ship you're using. It's not hard to implement bonuses or subsidy for goods in high demand. Or bonuses blasting pirates etc. Something can be done, but alas, not.