I don't understand the logic behind the "rebuy is too expensive" shouts

[Chrystoph]

That said. Why are people complaining about rebuy costs that are only 5% of the current value of the ship. Anyone who needs to pay a 5 million credit bill already managed to aquire 100 million credits and what I don#t understand is why 5 million credits are such a pain to pay when you have 100 million or more?

Perhaps it has to do with the half and half nature of respawning. You lose everything of a valuable consumable nature including progress, a definitive indication that you "died", yet you are still being forced to pay for the death and do NOT lose anything of a negative nature such as status. Rebuy is just salt in the wound of all the other situations.

Additionally, your argument places no value on the player's lost investment in the game. The idea that you can go SO broke from dying that you have to start over is the pen-ultimate in telling the player, We don't value your time.

 

[Jukelo]

Additionally, your argument places no value on the player's lost investment in the game. The idea that you can go SO broke from dying that you have to start over is the pen-ultimate in telling the player, We don't value your time.

You don't value your time either if you're wasting it on a video game.
If you aren't enjoying the game as you play it and instead rely on that make-believe so-called progress to validate the time you spend playing it, you really ought to pick a game that never punishes you for failing.

 

[Sylveria]

Perhaps it has to do with the half and half nature of respawning. You lose everything of a valuable consumable nature including progress, a definitive indication that you "died", yet you are still being forced to pay for the death and do NOT lose anything of a negative nature such as status. Rebuy is just salt in the wound of all the other situations.

Additionally, your argument places no value on the player's lost investment in the game. The idea that you can go SO broke from dying that you have to start over is the pen-ultimate in telling the player, We don't value your time.

Except... if you don't invest your time wisely, you're demonstrating you don't value your own time.

If you're flying around in a fail fit ship that lacks offensive/defensive capability without a rebuy and then lose it- whose responsibility does it become?

Time valuation on behalf of FD isn't the issue here. The issue is people taking responsibility (and accepting consequence) for their own actions.

 

[Chrystoph]

If you're flying around in a fail fit ship that lacks offensive/defensive capability without a rebuy and then lose it- whose responsibility does it become?

Ah, yes, the classic, you are responsible for for my actions because you look like prey, argument...

 

[Goose4291]

Except... if you don't invest your time wisely, you're demonstrating you don't value your own time.

If you're flying around in a fail fit ship that lacks offensive/defensive capability without a rebuy and then lose it- whose responsibility does it become?

Ah, yes, the classic, you are responsible for for my actions because you look like prey, argument...

Far from it.

If you grind up.to getting a big 3 (who in my experience are the rebuy complainers) and dont fit her out accordingly, whos really at fault more when you come into the crosshairs of an opponent?

 

[Sylveria]

Ah, yes, the classic, you are responsible for for my actions because you look like prey, argument...

No, I'm simply pointing out that each person has all the tools and toys available to them- whether they choose to acknowledge them is another matter.

This isn't a "griefer vs trader" argument. This is a discussion of the core mechanics of the game itself.

I'm an explorer. If I lose my DBX because I didn't equip defensive capability or weapons to defend myself... I don't go whining about it in the forums. I simply accept the fact that I made a decision to fit it as an Explorer and move on. That said- I do indeed argue (quite often, in fact) that player choice in engagements in PvP is non-existent when in Open- because there simply is no choice. If someone feels like attacking you, they will, and there's no choice involved for the "prey", as you put it.

But that's not the issue here- the issue is quite simply players accepting consequences for their own actions. Rebuys should not be "free". This isn't Counterstrike where you just respawn instantly on the map with a fresh gear package.

 

[askavir]

the earning power of the big ships, simply doesnt scale with the cost of them. so yes, to people who fly the smaller ships the rebuy doesnt seem that bad, but when your rebuy goes up to 50 million, you simply cant, make that rebuy amount back in anywhere near the same timeframe using the big ship. so it basically gets more time intensive to die in a big ship than a small one. which is obviously stupid.

But on the other hand, it's nearly impossible to die in a ship with a 50 million rebuy, so it evens itself out.

If a player still somehow manages to get killed in such a ship, maybe he should spend more time in smaller ships.

On top of that, it's just the basic rule of diminishing returns. Larger ships absolutely make more income, it just doesn't scale linearly. And this is a great thing. if income scaled linearly according to ship size, players would be funneled into using big ships to avoid impairing themselves, destroying the chance for ship diversity.

The cost of running and rebuying a large, expensive ship is very high, but at the same time the chance of losing such a ship is also extremely low (even for below average players).

For me it's fine as it is, if you really need to be using the largest, more expensive ship at all times, then in the very least the player must be able to fly it without getting killed (which is almost impossible unless the player is really, really bad at it - just see the examples of players who can't even pass the mailslot without logging out and back in to magically materialize outside the station), or be able to afford the cost of potentially losing it.

 

[Sylveria]

Far from it.

If you grind up.to getting a big 3 (who in my experience are the rebuy complainers) and dont fit her out accordingly, whos really at fault more when you come into the crosshairs of an opponent?

I also think this highlights one of the bigger problems with the game itself, too- which is the attitude that the "Big 3" is the "end game".

The lack of a progression "structure" for those who need it.

I don't fly them- although I indeed could afford to and have plenty of reserve cash on hand for rebuys. My "adversity" to them has nothing to do with rebuys- they just simply don't fit the purpose or nature as to my own choices as a player. Progression to me has nothing to do with material possession or how large my credit balance is, but rather my experiences in the game.

Those who don't need some sort of linear progression structure are OK with the game... it seems that others need "a star to steer their ship by", however.

 

[Zelos1983]

Ah, yes, the classic, you are responsible for for my actions because you look like prey, argument...

If you enable PvP mode in a non-PvP ship, it's of course your own fault if you get blown up.

 

[Sterling MH]

verminstar, this isn't about why it's daft to go into open. It's about rebuy. In Solo you face rebuy. You are fine with it there. So therefore there is no desire or need for rebuy to be nil.

As long as you can go solo or at least a solo PG with only you in it.

So instead of seeing this as a "How can we legitimately FORCE you into Open Only and beg off the force part with a 'it's your free choice, play this or leave the game!!!'", see it as "Why would you complain in your solo mode about the rebuy?".

If someone goes into Open in a ganked ship with all their credits sunk into it, this is WHY Open is not a place to force players into. It is also not changed any better if they respawn at no cost back at the last place they docked at with the full cargo hold and destination locked into the nav. Nor would the lack of loss be reason why Open should be the only place allowed.

Would you complain about the rebuy cost of your ship you enjoy flying around in solo in as unfair?

No (if I read your posting history correctly)

So you agree with the thread OP there is no reason to complain about the rebuy.

Indeed for PvP it maybe should be higher. after all, if you're no good at PvP and go into open KNOWING that this will be a place where PvP will be sprung on you, if the rebuy is high, you will win the race and beat your opponent, so either if you run away successfully you will face no penalty or if you are insufficient to the task, you will pay for the lack of ability. Get good. HOWEVER if you are going PvP equally, if the rebuy of the big ships are high then only those so good at the game will "earn" theability to remain in those ships. You have earned those ships by being so good at PvP that you face the rebuy less often than an equally armed but poorer player who will have to find a ship whose rebuy is lower so they can find their level in the rebuy cost of the ships as they scale up.

So you have to be GOOD to keep a Corvette in Open. Those less good will only be able to afford the rebuys of an FDL as often as they see the rebuy screen. And those less good than that will find that the Vulture is as expensive as their ability can afford them to fly. And total scrubs will be stuck in the freewinder.

Wasn't there a lot of how the ships should be earned through skill, not grind? That's EXACTLY what the exponential cost of ships does. The more expensive the ship, the better a pilot you have to be.

And increasing that cost of ship or the rebuy would just make the skill differentials easier to see.

The ones who don't get that are the ones not playing PvP. They don't want the ship peen that reflects their skill at combat. They want one that reflects their skill at trading or exploring or mining. Since combat there will be asymmetrical, the rebuy is "too expensive" for the bigger ships. But you can currently avoid that by playing solo where the combat will be levelled to your skill.

And the calls for the rebuy to be nil will remove absolutely any reflection of skill by the ship flown in combat. All you need is to get the biggest ship and you keep it. Your lack of skill will never see you have to "downgrate" to a Viper. You will never need to get good at the combat, because skill has no value or metric.

 

[Decaf]

I sometimes wonder if it has to do with the much faster rate you can make money. Sounds weird, since being able to make money faster should have the opposite effect, but Elite in this regard has a lot of "learning by doing/failing". A lot of things I learned from dying because I did stupid things, but since I was in a sidewinder for a long time and then I cobra for a long time, money from rebuys was peanuts and not really notable on my bankaccount.

At the point I got to the more expensive ships I made all the mistakes and learned my lessons already. I still lost a bigger expensive ship here and there but at that point I knew before it happend that what I'm doing is really stupid and I probably gonna lose the ship. It wasn't a lack of knowledge or experience just me being crazy

Nailed it on the head.

Seems like the people who complain are the ones going on youtube and other sources looking up the best builds for pvp/pve, fantasizing about the bigger badder ships and just getting tunnel vision. Not saving up enough for rebuy/necessary modules to make it kitted. I had 100mill saved up for my FdL and that still wasn't enough. I concur with you on the trial and error aspect. I did a large amount of my stupid mistakes in a cobra as well thus uneffected by money really. I've been playing this game since release and I'm still learning.

 

[ilo]

I dont PvP, but I do see teh detraction for players who want to PvP being the rebuy.

My suggestion is that PvPers set their Report Crimes against me to "Duellist", if they attack another player then the losers rebuy is picked up by Pilots federation.

That way PvPers can blow the frap outta ships and not have to contend with doing non PvP stuff to get a rebuy. People "attacked" vy PvPers will get rebuy if the attacker is set to Duellist.

Everyone is happy??

No. The funny thing comes up from mixing gameplay purpose and game mechanics purpose. If PVPers want to blow stuff up on a game where blowing up has a cost, go for it, but obey the rules.
I'm sure ED is not 'designed' so person A and B can just spend 5 hours blowing up each other and then click a restart button. Sorry for this. I'd also want other stuff the game has not been designed for like insta-travel, get rid of ships without LTD in super cruise and more stupid things but I'm not beating the forum 'create new post' button to tell everyone how important it is for the game to survive.

So, a ship's purpose and game mechanics should give enough income in 30 minutes to blow it up 10 times every 10 minutes for the PVPers to focus on their gameplay, is this what the discussion is about?

There is a space in Elite Dangerous where people can blow up stuff without having to pay for it. CQC, go play it.

 

[pck3]

I am relatively new to this but for me it's the grind of it.... having to spend an hour or more to recoup the cost of the rebuy. I have really only found 1 good money maker to alleviate this. And that method is soooooo boring. If I want to just play the game and enjoy different aspects then I am not trying to mine for 5 hours to get back to even. But just doing random missions with 1 or 2 million here and there takes hours....

That's where the lack of structure comes in, within the game.

 

[verminstar]

verminstar, this isn't about why it's daft to go into open. It's about rebuy. In Solo you face rebuy. You are fine with it there. So therefore there is no desire or need for rebuy to be nil.

As long as you can go solo or at least a solo PG with only you in it.

So instead of seeing this as a "How can we legitimately FORCE you into Open Only and beg off the force part with a 'it's your free choice, play this or leave the game!!!'", see it as "Why would you complain in your solo mode about the rebuy?".

If someone goes into Open in a ganked ship with all their credits sunk into it, this is WHY Open is not a place to force players into. It is also not changed any better if they respawn at no cost back at the last place they docked at with the full cargo hold and destination locked into the nav. Nor would the lack of loss be reason why Open should be the only place allowed.

Would you complain about the rebuy cost of your ship you enjoy flying around in solo in as unfair?

No (if I read your posting history correctly)

So you agree with the thread OP there is no reason to complain about the rebuy.

Indeed for PvP it maybe should be higher. after all, if you're no good at PvP and go into open KNOWING that this will be a place where PvP will be sprung on you, if the rebuy is high, you will win the race and beat your opponent, so either if you run away successfully you will face no penalty or if you are insufficient to the task, you will pay for the lack of ability. Get good. HOWEVER if you are going PvP equally, if the rebuy of the big ships are high then only those so good at the game will "earn" theability to remain in those ships. You have earned those ships by being so good at PvP that you face the rebuy less often than an equally armed but poorer player who will have to find a ship whose rebuy is lower so they can find their level in the rebuy cost of the ships as they scale up.

So you have to be GOOD to keep a Corvette in Open. Those less good will only be able to afford the rebuys of an FDL as often as they see the rebuy screen. And those less good than that will find that the Vulture is as expensive as their ability can afford them to fly. And total scrubs will be stuck in the freewinder.

Wasn't there a lot of how the ships should be earned through skill, not grind? That's EXACTLY what the exponential cost of ships does. The more expensive the ship, the better a pilot you have to be.

And increasing that cost of ship or the rebuy would just make the skill differentials easier to see.

The ones who don't get that are the ones not playing PvP. They don't want the ship peen that reflects their skill at combat. They want one that reflects their skill at trading or exploring or mining. Since combat there will be asymmetrical, the rebuy is "too expensive" for the bigger ships. But you can currently avoid that by playing solo where the combat will be levelled to your skill.

And the calls for the rebuy to be nil will remove absolutely any reflection of skill by the ship flown in combat. All you need is to get the biggest ship and you keep it. Your lack of skill will never see you have to "downgrate" to a Viper. You will never need to get good at the combat, because skill has no value or metric.

Theres just one problem with this whole argument...I play in open, not solo...which ye appear to assume I do most of the time, when the reality is I only play there when I cant be bothered taking the risk in busy areas like CG or fer board flipping or shopping sprees at jamesons. But about 90% of my time I play in open...so erm...not sure how to reply to a lotta this cos me playing the game in solo appears to be what yer entire argument is based on.

Also Im not complaining, Im explaining why its just not worth the hassle and moving to solo in busy spots. Explaining a point of view and complaining are two entirely different entities...whether or not you or anyone else agrees or disagrees with that point of view isnt even a relevant factor in deciding whether or not its complaining. Its only complaining whens its spammed all over the forum in every thread ye can get derailed onto that tangeant...then its a complaint and thats complaining.

In the meantime, the op asked a question...the question was answered...ye dont like the answer but heres the thing. Im not gonna suddenly change my mind based on some argument that someone formulates into their heads that makes sense to them, and when it comes to loss, I have played ironman in this game and have wiped my save 5 times...one life only. How many here even have the bottle to wipe a triple elite account?

Whatever...when I play this game, I play big ships only and Ive been here almost 3 years...Ive spent more time in small ships than some here have been playing in total so when I say I wanna play big ships...that means Im gonna play big ships and if I decide I cant be bothered being someone lulz over a 40m rebuy, then I really would just go to solo and think nothing more of it.

The only ones actually complaining about this are, ironically enough, the open players who appear to be getting lonely and starting threads asking why players avoid open...see where this is going?

Im not avoiding open, just avoiding the knuckle dragging elements ^

 

[Sterling MH]

Aye, it hardly seems inappropriate to consider that someone complaining about other people blowing their ship up and being upset that this costs a lot because it's never on an even basis that this wouldn't turn out to be Solo or Mobius rather than rattng about alone rather than ratting about solo mode.
And the reason for it being exponential is quite acceptable a gameplay idea since you will gravitate to the size of ship your expertise can afford to retain. Certainly the original ideas was that though the lore was the PF frowned on PvP killing for their pilots, the developers were so averse to this that they considered it so rare as to be unnecessary to counter with dev effort in making game rules, so, again, your expensive trader ship would cost more the worse you were at evadiing the NPCs. And since trading was more profitable per hour than combat, you would earn more between rebuys though you'd be up against the rebuy more often than if you had built up a combat ready machine.

So you would see the better pilots affording to swan around in clippers and the less capable in type9s. Etc.

That this would not be the case in PvP would be rather irrelevant if the intent of the people in Open to ignore consent and take it as read "because why else are you here if not to be shot at by me?" would be so infrequent that the blip would be insignificant.

 

[Chaparral]

So pick any mmo. You're character dies. Are you forced to stop playing your character?

Are you forced to stop wearing your armor? (most have damage mechanics but repair is usually insanely cheap if not free)

Are you forced to lose your weapons? (most have damage mechanics but repair is usually insanely cheap if not free)

Elite does not have this approach, and it discourages ship upgrade progression, experimentation, and open play.

Yeah the galaxy is dangerous. So is alienating new players. One consequence is more severe for the game - guess which one.

 

[Grumpy181155]

From personal experience, I can say that when I started the game, credits were tough to come by. (i played at release)
I never min/maxed or looked for the recent exploits. But can say from normal gameplay, it was tough early going, and while I never flew without a rebuy (well, maybe briefly...just once), every rebuy in the early going was painful.

I know profit streams have become more lucrative since release, but I still don't know what it's like for a new player. I'd imagine not having any alliances would still make getting going a bit of an uphill battle.

The profits are ridiculously easy now. I have a friend who just bought ED about 4 weeks ago and he started trading and using EDD and within 3 weeks he was in a D rated Cutter.

 

[Xious]

Hopefully this will help....

 

[Captain Willard]

The profits are ridiculously easy now. I have a friend who just bought ED about 4 weeks ago and he started trading and using EDD and within 3 weeks he was in a D rated Cutter.

To funny. Buy the biggest ship in the game, that you don't know how to fly and will end up collecting dust. Good job.

 

[Ziljan]

The game should not be easy and have consequences. Loosing your ship is not something that should happen on a regular basis (most of the time it's due to bugs anyway and you get a refund from customer service).

"Free" replacement ships should never be part of the game. People should stop demanding easy mode for everything.

BTW, as irl, "Killing" makes less money than trading, but that was also the core gameplay of previous games.

The loss isn't the issue, the issue if that you have to switch from fun PVP back to relatively unfun PVE grinding in order to recoup the loss. If you could just PVP all the time and make back enough money to potentially cover losses from that same activity, then that would be amazing.